|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/10/2010 10:07:01 AM
|
|
|
Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
We know that according to Daniel 9:24 Daniels people (Israel) and Daniels holy city (Jerusalem) have 490 prophetic years or "70 sevens" to accomplish 6 tasks, which are 1. Finish Transgression, 2. Put an end to Sin, 3. To Atone for wickedness, 4. To bring in Everlasting Righteousness, 5. To seal up Vision and Prophecy, 6. To Anoint the most holy.
And we know that Israel and Jerusalem have not completed any of these tasks. But when?
Most everyone always goes and interchanges Christ for Daniels people and holy city, which is a big mistake, for this prophecy is all about Israel. Saying that the "70 sevens" are complete makes for a lot of erroneous scenarios when it comes to the End Times.
Now let us look at the NT. Romans 11:24 - After all, if you (us as Christians) were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive three, how much more readily will these, the natural branches (Israel), be grafted into their own olive three. Israel has been pulled off the tree due to unbelief. We as new Christians are grafted into the tree due to belief.
So the only way that Israel can accomplish the 6 tasks in Daniel 9:24 is to be re grafted back into the vine (Jesus Christ).
In Christ
Montana Marv
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/12/2010 10:56:02 AM
|
|
|
Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Just a few more supporting verses.
Zech 12:10 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for and only child....
Zech 13:1 - On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
Zech 14:9 - The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
Zech 13:4 - On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision.
Zech 13:8,9 - In the whole land, declares the Lord, two thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, They are mmy people and they will say, the Lord is our God.
Just a fulfillment of some of the six. 2. Put an end to sin. 5. To seal up vision and prophesy. 6. To anoint the most holy (King).
In Christ
Montana Marv
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/13/2010 1:18:21 PM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
|
quote:
Most everyone always goes and interchanges Christ for Daniels people and holy city, which is a big mistake, for this prophecy is all about Israel.
Yes, this prophecy is indeed about Israel and its future, but it would be a mistake to exclude Messiah from "thy people" since it is only Messiah the Prince -- the Lord Jesus Christ -- who can do the following for Israel:
1. To finish the transgression [future]
2. To make an end of sins [future]
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity [future]
4. To bring in everlasting righteousnesss [future]
5. To seal up the vision and prophecy [future]
6. To anoint the most holy [future]
Israel must turn to Christ in the future in order for all these things to become a reality for Israel. That is when the re-grafting of Israel will occur "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" (Rom. 11:26).
quote:
Saying that the "70 sevens" are complete makes for a lot of erroneous scenarios when it comes to the End Times.
It is rather disturbing that Christians seek to promote confusion in these matters. It shows that we are indeed living in the end-time apostasy when Scripture is perverted on all sides, and even the Gospel is perverted. And we should not forget that the modern translations with their corrupt readings are also contributing to this confusion. The critical editions of the Hebrew text have led to over 31,000 changes to the OT. But the Masoretic Text underlying the AV was always stable and was faithfully transmitted by the Hebrew scribes.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/13/2010 3:18:55 PM
|
|
|
Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
It is rather disturbing that Christians seek to promote confusion in these matters. It shows that we are indeed living in the end-time apostasy when Scripture is perverted on all sides, and even the Gospel is perverted. And we should not forget that the modern translations with their corrupt readings are also contributing to this confusion. The critical editions of the Hebrew text have led to over 31,000 changes to the OT. But the Masoretic Text underlying the AV was always stable and was faithfully transmitted by the Hebrew scribes.
Apostasy??? Please! Tell me how you interpret this, then:
Luke 21:20-24 (NASB77)
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand.
21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are in the midst of the city depart, and let not those who are in the country enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 "Woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people,
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
It's NOT apostasy to take the Lord at His Word! You may disagree with what He said, but that's between you and He!
The passage from Luke (above) is the SAME passage from Matthew 24:
Matthew 24:15-22 (NASB77)
15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;
17 let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house;
18 and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak.
19 "But woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days!
20 "But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath;
21 for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.
22 "And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short.
The 70 weeks were COMPLETELY fulfilled with the destruction and desolation of Jerusalem! Not my words: Christ's! Look AGAIN:
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand...because these are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
You're right: there's a lot of confusion around but it's not coming from people who take the Lord at His word!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/13/2010 3:38:47 PM
|
|
|
Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
The Messiah and His Mission
The prophecy states forth the primary mission of the Messiah, and gives several particulars in addition to a very precise timing of the event:
1) He would come and deal with the problem of sin. (9:24). Note three different phrases used in the prophecy; “to finish the transgression”; “to make an end of sin”; “to make atonement for iniquity.” Jesus introduced a system by His own blood through which one can be washed from his sins and held accountable for them no longer as well as continue to be forgiven as one walks by faith and seeks forgiveness by repentance.
2) He would bring in everlasting righteousness. (9:24). Jesus enacted heaven's plan to make sinners righteous by grace through faith (Romans 1:16,17; 3:21-26).
3) He would seal up the vision (9:24). This means to bring to completion; to close or finish. With the coming of Jesus and His new covenant, Divine revelation was completed. With the generation who were alive during Jesus' life, we see the last living prophets and prophetesses. With those men and women and the messages given through them, prophecy would cease. (Hebrews 1:1,2; 1 Corinthians 13:8-10).
4) He would anoint the Holy Place. (9:24). Jesus is the Messiah (Hebrew), or Christ (Greek). Both of these words mean “anointed one.” When Jesus ascended into heaven, He entered the true, spiritual Holy Place where He lives and intercedes for us (Hebrews 9:11,12).
5) He will make a firm covenant with many. (9:27). His covenant is the New Testament, ratified by His death (Hebrews 8:6).
6) He will bring OT sacrifices to an end. (9:27). He did this by offering Himself as our only perfect sin offering, thus fulfilling the Law and taking that system out of the way. (Hebrews 7:18,19; 24,25).
Not some future event: already fulfilled in Christ's death, resurrection and ascension to the Father!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/13/2010 5:02:46 PM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
|
Stormcrow:
Since I use the AV/KJV consistently, I will use it below and respond. Note that I am quoting the passage from verse 20-28 (some of which you did not quote) to clearly show that the application of this prophecy is beyond 70 A.D. to the very end when the Son of Man returns in power and great glory:
quote:
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
There are many prophecies which have a double application, and this is one of those. It points to 70 A.D. and it also points to the future when Jerusalem will be surrounded by the armies mustered by the Antichrist.
quote:
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Again, a double application.
quote:
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
This is the key to understanding that the Olivet Discourse is primarily to be applied to the future. "All things which are written" literally means "all things which are written". Since there are numerous prophecies which have not been fulfilled, we can rest asurred that this passage is indeed speaking of the time when all things are fulfilled, which is when Christ returns in power and great glory. Everything written in the book of Revelation must also be fulfilled. As well as all OT prophecies pertaining to the Day of the Lord.
quote:
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Again, a double application.
quote:
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Again, another Scripture to show that after Israel was scattered into all the nations following 70 A.D., Jerusalem would be "trodden down of the Gentiles" until the time of the Antichrist, and that is when "the times of the Gentiles" would be fulfilled. The fact that Muslim Arabs continue to live in Jeruslaem and the Dome of the Rock continues to stand shows that the times of the Gentiles have not been "fulfilled". When Christ re-establishes Jerusalem, there will be no Gentiles there, nor unbelieving Jews.
quote:
25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Another key verse to show that Daniel's 70th week has not been fulfilled. There will be cosmic cataclysms before the return of Christ as described here. These have not yet occurred.
quote:
26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Another key verse to show that the Day of Lord has not arrived, therefore "all things have not been fulfilled".
quote:
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Here is the ultimate verse to show that all things are waiting to be fulfilled. Christ has not returned to this earth in power and great glory. He is still seated at the right hand of the Father, waiting for the day when He shall make His foes His footstool.
quote:
28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
This is addressed to the believing remnant of Israel, and goes right back to Romans 11:26.
So to mislead people with false notions about fulfilled prophecy is as dangerous as misleading them with a false gospel. In light of the above, you would be wise to abandon the false teachings which you have accepted, and focus on the truth.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/13/2010 5:49:33 PM
|
|
|
Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Stormcrow
Who are the decrees of Daniel 9:24 for? The 70 - sevens are for who? When you can correctly answer both of this questions, then you will be able to see who must fulfill the six tasks.
I think a 5th grader good in English grammar would be able to answer the 2 questions, and thus respond correctly to who must fulfill the six tasks. ALL the information needed is in this one verse.
In Christ
Montana Marv
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/13/2010 10:15:06 PM
|
|
|
Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
So to mislead people with false notions about fulfilled prophecy is as dangerous as misleading them with a false gospel. In light of the above, you would be wise to abandon the false teachings which you have accepted, and focus on the truth.
The misleading took place when Martin Luther started referring to the Pope as the Antichrist, at which point a Jesuit priest named Ribera created the interpretation of these passages to which you cling in an effort to save the reputation of the Pope and Papacy.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/13/2010 10:44:34 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/14/2010 1:07:16 AM
|
|
|
Ps103
Posts: 12986
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
|
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Tone down the rhetoric and accusations of apostasy in this thread, or its desolation will be swift and sure.
That is not a prophecy, but a promise.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community. Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 12:00:35 AM
|
|
|
Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
|
Israel was given 490 years to "clean up its act" and usher in the Kingdom of God through the acceptance of Messiah.
Instead of doing so, they rejected Him and turned Him over to the Romans to be crucified.
Read Ezekiel starting in chapter 4 and going through chapter 11 to see what God saw in them and why He judged them so harshly! Here's a snippet:
9 'And because of all your abominations, I will do among you what I have not done, and the like of which I will never do again. 10 'Therefore, fathers will eat their sons among you, and sons will eat their fathers; for I will execute judgments on you, and scatter all your remnant to every wind. Ezekiel 5:9-10 (NASB77)
11 'So as I live,' declares the Lord God, 'surely, because you have defiled My sanctuary with all your detestable idols and with all your abominations, therefore I will also withdraw, and My eye shall have no pity and I will not spare. 12 'One third of you will die by plague or be consumed by famine among you, one third will fall by the sword around you, and one third I will scatter to every wind, and I will unsheathe a sword behind them. 13
'Thus My anger will be spent, and I will satisfy My wrath on them, and I shall be appeased; then they will know that I, the Lord, have spoken in My zeal when I have spent My wrath upon them. 14 'Moreover, I will make you a desolation and a reproach among the nations which surround you, in the sight of all who pass by. Ezekiel 5:11-14 (NASB77)
Starting in Ezek. 8:18, Ezekiel is shown a vision of the Temple. Here's what he saw:
10 So I entered and looked, and behold, every form of creeping things and beasts and detestable things, with all the idols of the house of Israel, were carved on the wall all around. 11 And standing in front of them were seventy elders of the house of Israel, with Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan standing among them, each man with his censer in his hand, and the fragrance of the cloud of incense rising. Ezekiel 8:10-11 (NASB77)
The priests were offering incense to idols. But there's more:
16 Then He brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house. And behold, at the entrance to the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs to the temple of the Lord and their faces toward the east; and they were prostrating themselves eastward toward the sun. 17 And He said to me, "Do you see this, son of man? Is it too light a thing for the house of Judah to commit the abominations which they have committed here, that they have filled the land with violence and provoked Me repeatedly? For behold, they are putting the twig to their nose. Ezekiel 8:16-17 (NASB77)
There is no double application of these passages: when Christ spoke in the Olivet Discourse these words:
"...for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall." Matthew 24:21 (NASB77) He was referring to this passage from Ezekiel:
"I will do among you what I have not done, and the like of which I will never do again." Ezek. 5
Luke recounts Christ's words this way:
"Woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people...Luke 21:23 (NASB77)
When Ezekiel speaks of "sons eating fathers", he's literally prophesying of the cannibalism that occured in Jerusalem during the siege and famine that accompanied it!
Josephus writes:
quote:
Now of those that perished by famine in the city, the number was prodigious, and the miseries they underwent were unspeakable; for if so much as the shadow of any kind of food did any where appear, a war was commenced presently, and the dearest friends fell a fighting one with another about it, snatching from each other the most miserable supports of life. Nor would men believe that those who were dying had no food, but the robbers would search them when they were expiring, lest any one should have concealed food in their bosoms, and counterfeited dying; nay, these robbers gaped for want, and ran about stumbling and staggering along like mad dogs, and reeling against the doors of the houses like drunken men; they would also, in the great distress they were in, rush into the very same houses two or three times in one and the same day.
Moreover, their hunger was so intolerable, that it obliged them to chew every thing, while they gathered such things as the most sordid animals would not touch, and endured to eat them; nor did they at length abstain from girdles and shoes; and the very leather which belonged to their shields they pulled off and gnawed: the very wisps of old hay became food to some; and some gathered up fibres, and sold a very small weight of them for four Attic [drachmae]. But why do I describe the shameless impudence that the famine brought on men in their eating inanimate things, while I am going to relate a matter of fact, the like to which no history relates, (15) either among the Greeks or Barbarians? It is horrible to speak of it, and incredible when heard. I had indeed willingly omitted this calamity of ours, that I might not seem to deliver what is so portentous to posterity, but that I have innumerable witnesses to it in my own age; and besides, my country would have had little reason to thank me for suppressing the miseries that she underwent at this time.
There was a certain woman that dwelt beyond Jordan, her name was Mary...What she had treasured up besides, as also what food she had contrived to save, had been also carried off by the rapacious guards, who came every day running into her house for that purpose...it was now become impossible for her any way to find any more food, while the famine pierced through her very bowels and marrow, when also her passion was fired to a degree beyond the famine itself;
She then attempted a most unnatural thing; and snatching up her son, who was a child sucking at her breast, she said, "O thou miserable infant! for whom shall I preserve thee in this war, this famine, and this sedition? As to the war with the Romans, if they preserve our lives, we must be slaves. This famine also will destroy us, even before that slavery comes upon us. Yet are these seditious rogues more terrible than both the other. Come on; be thou my food, and be thou a fury to these seditious varlets, and a by-word to the world, which is all that is now wanting to complete the calamities of us Jews." As soon as she had said this, she slew her son, and then roasted him, and eat the one half of him, and kept the other half by her concealed. Upon this the seditious came in presently, and smelling the horrid scent of this food, they threatened her that they would cut her throat immediately if she did not show them what food she had gotten ready. She replied that she had saved a very fine portion of it for them, and withal uncovered what was left of her son.
Never before. Never again. Christ's words, not mine.
Matthew 24:15-22 and Luke 21:20-24 are describing the same event that was completely fulfilled in the 7 years of the first Jewish-Roman War, that began under Vespasian in 66 AD with the siege of Jerusalem (and it's destruction in 70 AD) and was finished with the fall of Masada in 73 AD.
Finally, Christ's words referring to "all things which were written" need to be taken in context: He was speaking of all things which were written concerning the destruction of the Temple and the fall of Jerusalem, a large part of which can be found in Ezekiel.
Anyone having a problem with this should take it up with the Lord. He said it, I didn't.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/15/2010 12:30:51 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 12:21:56 AM
|
|
|
Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
14 'Moreover, I will make you a desolation and a reproach among the nations which surround you, in the sight of all who pass by. Ezekiel 5:11-14 (NASB77)
Here's what Josephus wrote in regards to what he saw after the destruction of Jerusalem:
NOW as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury, (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done,) Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind.
Jerusalem reduced to rubble. Jesus saw this coming:
37 " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 "For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, ' Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'" Matthew 23:37-39 (NASB77)
Again, there is no "double application" here: Never before, never again. Such were the horrors visited upon Jerusalem by the outpouring of God's wrath on it.
The next time He pours out His wrath will be on the sin and disbelief of the entire world.
Daniel 9:24-27 is completely fulfilled. Time to start looking at Revelation to see where we're headed next.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 12:33:57 AM
|
|
|
Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
|
I can't post all of Josephus' works here, so anyone reading this please: do yourself a favor and search for the complete works of Flavius Josephus and read them, especially as they relate to the siege and destruction of Jerusalem. You will not view the fall of Jerusalem as an insignificant event again.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 1:23:27 AM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
|
quote:
39 "For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, ' Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"
This verse is the most powerful and conclusive refutation of your false position.
The Lord Jesus is addressing Jerusalem and saying that (1) it would be destroyed (70 A.D.) and (2) the Jews would not see Jesus again until they proclaimed at His Second Coming "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord". This is when Christ would return in "power and great glory" (Mt. 24:30) and none may set this date.
This event has not occurred which means that your entire theory is built with a house of cards. Give it up.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 1:27:18 AM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1828
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
I can't post all of Josephus' works here, so anyone reading this please: do yourself a favor and search for the complete works of Flavius Josephus and read them, especially as they relate to the siege and destruction of Jerusalem. You will not view the fall of Jerusalem as an insignificant event again.
Who says that the fall of Jerusalem (70 A.D.) is insignificant? The real issue is "Did Josehpus also say that Messiah had returned in power and great glory when Jerusalem fell"?
And if he did not, we don't need to read Josephus. We need to study the Scriptures and believe them.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 1:31:03 AM
|
|
|
Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
|
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it. Isaiah 40:3-5 (KJV)
This is what Israel was told to do and they were given 490 years to do it. John the Baptist's message was their last call to "prepare the way of the Lord."
They did not. They beheaded John and crucified the One for whom they were supposed to prepare the way. The crucifixion took place 486.5 years after the decree to rebuild the Temple and Jerusalem. The last 3.5 years were fulfilled in the siege, destruction, and desolation of Jerusalem and Temple and the disapora of the Jews, during the generation that would "see all these things come to pass."
God's wrath was spent on the Jews (see Ezekiel) with the destruction and desolation of Jerusalem and the diaspora of the Jews.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 1:36:30 AM
|
|
|
Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
|
Sorry, Ezra...you're misreading Matthew 24 and not dividing the Word correctly. Christ was also answering questions regarding the signs of His coming. These have to be separated from His word concerning Jerusalem. You're conflating two separate events: the destruction of Jerusalem with His return.
Never before. Never again. The answers you're looking for to complete the picture are in Revelation 6 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and chapter 5 of that letter.
And don't forget Luke. He interprets Matthew quite nicely.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 1:39:01 AM
|
|
|
Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
The real issue is "Did Josehpus also say that Messiah had returned in power and great glory when Jerusalem fell"?
And if he did not, we don't need to read Josephus. We need to study the Scriptures and believe them.
I do. I'm taking them EXACTLY as they are presented. Again, if you have an issue with what I've presented, discuss it with the One who inspired them.
P.S. I do like the way you've moved from your indefensible "double application" argument, though. 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 1:49:13 AM
|
|
|
Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
This verse is the most powerful and conclusive refutation of your false position.
I understand how having your dogma challenged can feel threatening. But please, spare me the aspersions on my character and views. They're not necessary.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 9:33:57 AM
|
|
|
Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Stormcrow
Keep Josephus out of this conversation. His writings have nothing to do with Israel being grafted back into the vine.
Daniel 9:24 is a prophecy............. Hum!!!!!!!!!! Because it is a prophecy, it must be fulfilled as written. Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city TO............ I do not see the words WILL Not.
In Christ
Montana Marv
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 11:30:48 AM
|
|
|
Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
I do not see the words WILL Not.
Because you're misreading it. View it as, "Israel, you have 490 years to get your act together and take care of all the things I'm commanding you to do."
Israel was given plenty of time and more than enough warning. Not only didn't they do what was commanded, they rejected and killed Christ! Get it? They didn't annoint Him: they had Him crucified!!!
You're reading things into it that aren't there, such as a 2,000+ year gap that simply doesn't exist!
The generation that saw Jerusalem destroyed was the generation of which it's destruction was foretold!
And Josephus explains the history of how Jerusalem was destroyed and how Ezekiel was fulfilled to perfection! The very reason people aren't getting this is because you're trying to read prophecy without understanding the history surrounding it.
Without history, the prophecies have no context. They can mean anything anyone wants them to mean. And that is the root of the problem here.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/15/2010 11:38:53 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 11:49:17 AM
|
|
|
Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
Who says that the fall of Jerusalem (70 A.D.) is insignificant?
Everyone who glosses over it in anticipation of some future antichrist threatening to bring these horrors down on Jerusalem again.
Never before. Never again. It's both a prophecy and a promise, meaning that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a completely unique event in the history of Israel.
The next time Israel is so threatened, Christ returns on a white horse (Revelation 19) with the armies of heaven behind Him to save Israel so as to fulfill His promise: "Never again."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 12:09:57 PM
|
|
|
Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Stormcrow
The Godhead has decreed or determined for Israel and Jerusalem TO fulfill the six tasks. This is Prophecy, it must be fulfilled as written. 70 - sevens are decreed......... 7 - Sevens, 62 - Sevens, and 1 - Seven. 490 Prophetic Years. For What - For Israel and Jerusalem TO: 1. Finish transgression, 2. Put an end to sin, 3. To atone for wickedness, 4. To bring in everlasting righteousness, 5. To seal up vision and prophecy, 6. To anoint the most holy.
In Matt 24:15 - Jesus said that Daniel was a Prophet. A Prophet is one who accurately foretells the Future.
If Israel and Jerusalem have not fulfilled these six, It Must Be reserved for a Future time (to finish out this final week of Daniel). It will be fulfilled when Israels remnant is grafted back into the vine (natural olive tree).
In Christ
Montana Marv
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 12:19:00 PM
|
|
|
Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
For Israel and Jerusalem TO: 1. Finish transgression, 2. Put an end to sin, 3. To atone for wickedness, 4. To bring in everlasting righteousness, 5. To seal up vision and prophecy, 6. To anoint the most holy.
Precisely. And not only didn't they do these things, they beheaded John and had Christ crucified! And precisely because they failed to do what God commanded, He poured out His wrath on them: the same generation that rejected and crucified Christ.
Daniel 9:24-27 is completely fulfilled in the death, resurrection, ascension of Jesus and the destruction of Jerusalem.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 12:38:18 PM
|
|
|
Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
It will be fulfilled when Israels remnant is grafted back into the vine (natural olive tree).
Actually, the gentiles are the ones "grafted into" the natural olive tree (Israel).
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, " The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob." 27 " And this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." Romans 11:17-27 (NASB77)
The "re-grafting" here has nothing to do with Daniel 9:24-27. In fact, it can be argued that Israel's removal from the tree came as a result of their failure to do the 6 things commanded in Daniel (and expanded upon in Ezekiel!)
Israel's heart toward the Lord will be softened when "the fullness of the gentiles has come in." This has nothing to do with Daniel 9:24-27.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Re Grafting and the 70th Week of Daniel - 3/15/2010 1:00:14 PM
|
|
|
Montana Marv
Posts: 381
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
It will be fulfilled when Israels remnant is grafted back into the vine (natural olive tree).
Actually, the gentiles are the ones "grafted into" the natural olive tree (Israel).
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, " The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob." 27 " And this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." Romans 11:17-27 (NASB77)
The "re-grafting" here has nothing to do with Daniel 9:24-27. In fact, it can be argued that Israel's removal from the tree came as a result of their failure to do the 6 things commanded in Daniel (and expanded upon in Ezekiel!)
Israel's heart toward the Lord will be softened when "the fullness of the gentiles has come in." This has nothing to do with Daniel 9:24-27.
Stormcrow
But it does, Only when Israel believes again, can they be grafted back into the natural olive tree in which they were pulled out. Only when they believe, will they stop transgressing, sinning, able to bring in everlasting righteousness for themselves, to make amends for their wickedness, to finish visions and prophecy, and to anoint their King.
The same with us Christians. Only after we believe (become grafted into the vine) can we received the power to stop transgression, sinning, then asking forgiveness (atoning) when we sin again, making Jesus the Lord and King of our lives.
Everything has to do with ones Position IN Jesus Christ.
In Christ
Montana Marv
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
