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Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/19/2009 7:15:03 PM
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NiceGuy
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***Incoming Message from the Big Giant Head ***
In an interview with MSNBC's Rachel Maddow, former evangelist Frank Schaeffer, a supporter of President Obama and blogger for the Huffington Post, fears a bumper sticker is an indication that the religious right is "trawling for assassins." The bumper sticker reads "Pray for Obama: Psalm 109:8"
Verse 8 of Psalm 109 says this: "Let his days be few; and let another take his office." If you continue reading to verse 9, it says this: "Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow." Schaeffer believes this is indicative of an overarching desire of the religious right to see a bloody revolution in the US, including the death of the president. Among other things, he brands readers of the Left Behind books as "deluded" and equates the religious right with the Taliban. He also asks why Christians aren't speaking out against this supposedly pervasive mindset among the religious right desiring such violence, and draws a parallel between the silence of the religious right about this controversy and the silence of prominent Muslims who have failed to condemn the murders of 9/11 and other similar acts of violence committed by Muslims. To those he says "Where the hell are you?"
First of all, can anyone provide any background information on Frank Schaeffer? I've never heard of the guy. His Huffington Post bio describes him as "a survivor of both polio and an evangelical/fundamentalist childhood." Apparently, his father was an evangelist in the seventies and eighties.
Secondly, what do you think of the controversy over these bumper stickers and the things he's said?
You can watch Maddow's entire interview with Schaeffer here:
http://rawstory.com/2009/11/evangelist-religious-trawling-assassins/
NiceGuy 
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/19/2009 8:00:44 PM
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Mollymouser
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Frank Schaeffer is a New York Times best selling author. Richard Eder in the Los Angeles Times described Frank’s writing as, “A rich brew of cross-cultural comedy.” The British newspaper the Guardian says Frank’s work is “funny and wonderfully observed.”
Frank is a survivor of both polio and an evangelical/fundamentalist childhood, an acclaimed writer who overcame severe dyslexia, a home-schooled and self-taught documentary movie director, a feature film director and producer of four low-budget Hollywood features he has described as “pretty terrible,” and a best-selling author of both fiction and nonfiction. Along the way he also did a “successful” stint as his famous evangelical father’s (Francis Schaeffer) sidekick. This was just before Frank left the evangelical world. In 1990 he joined the Greek Orthodox Church.
Frank’s three semi-biographical novels about growing up in a fundamentalist mission -- Portofino, Zermatt, and Saving Grandma -- have a worldwide following, having been translated into nine languages and receiving international critical acclaim.
Frank’s latest book, a memoir, CRAZY FOR GOD: How I Grew Up As One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of It Back, has been acclaimed widely. Jane Smiley, writing in The Nation (Oct 15, 2007) said: “Crazy for God offers considerable insight into several issues that have bedeviled American life in the past thirty years, and... when taken in conjunction with [Frank Schaeffer's] other works (notably the Calvin Becker Trilogy, Portofino, Zermatt and Saving Grandma), it gives us not only a handle on the mess we are in but also quite a few laughs...”
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/19/2009 10:59:57 PM
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dbark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NiceGuy
In an interview with MSNBC's Rachel Maddow, former evangelist Frank Schaeffer, a supporter of President Obama and blogger for the Huffington Post, fears a bumper sticker is an indication that the religious right is "trawling for assassins." The bumper sticker reads "Pray for Obama: Psalm 109:8"
Verse 8 of Psalm 109 says this: "Let his days be few; and let another take his office." If you continue reading to verse 9, it says this: "Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow." Schaeffer believes this is indicative of an overarching desire of the religious right to see a bloody revolution in the US, including the death of the president. Among other things, he brands readers of the Left Behind books as "deluded" and equates the religious right with the Taliban. He also asks why Christians aren't speaking out against this supposedly pervasive mindset among the religious right desiring such violence, and draws a parallel between the silence of the religious right about this controversy and the silence of prominent Muslims who have failed to condemn the murders of 9/11 and other similar acts of violence committed by Muslims. To those he says "Where the hell are you?"
First of all, can anyone provide any background information on Frank Schaeffer? I've never heard of the guy. His Huffington Post bio describes him as "a survivor of both polio and an evangelical/fundamentalist childhood." Apparently, his father was an evangelist in the seventies and eighties.
Secondly, what do you think of the controversy over these bumper stickers and the things he's said?
I think that those bumper stickers are appalling, disgusting, and borderline criminal, but I don't know who is producing them so I'd be very hesistant to start pointing fingers at the "religious right" ... whovever that is.
Frank Schaeffer is the son of Francis Schaeffer who was a very well known Christian theologian and author. Though he is a Christian, Frank, to put it mildly, does not agree with his father's theology.
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/19/2009 11:06:37 PM
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Marcus.
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Frank Schaeffer
Francis Schaeffer
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/19/2009 11:31:01 PM
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Marcus.
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That Psalm isn't asking for assassins but God to judge the wicked. Understand the context and understand how Obama is seen by those with the sticker.
quote:
Psalm 109:1 O God of my praise, Do not be silent ! 2 For they have opened the wicked and deceitful mouth against me; They have spoken against me with a lying tongue. 3 They have also surrounded me with words of hatred, And fought against me without cause. 4 In return for my love they act as my accusers ; But I am in prayer. 5 Thus they have repaid me evil for good And hatred for my love. 6 Appoint a wicked man over him, And let an accuser stand at his right hand. 7 When he is judged, let him come forth guilty, And let his prayer become sin. 8 Let his days be few ; Let another take his office. 9 Let his children be fatherless And his wife a widow. 10 Let his children wander about and beg ; And let them seek sustenance far from their ruined homes. 11 Let the creditor seize all that he has, And let strangers plunder the product of his labor. 12 Let there be none to extend lovingkindness to him, Nor any to be gracious to his fatherless children. 13 Let his posterity be cut off ; In a following generation let their name be blotted out. 14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD, And do not let the sin of his mother be blotted out. 15 Let them be before the LORD continually, That He may cut off their memory from the earth ; 16 Because he did not remember to show lovingkindness, But persecuted the afflicted and needy man, And the despondent in heart, to put them to death. 17 He also loved cursing, so it came to him; And he did not delight in blessing, so it was far from him. 18 But he clothed himself with cursing as with his garment, And it entered into his body like water And like oil into his bones. 19 Let it be to him as a garment with which he covers himself, And for a belt with which he constantly girds himself. 20 Let this be the reward of my accusers from the LORD, And of those who speak evil against my soul. 21 But You, O GOD, the Lord, deal kindly with me for Your name's sake ; Because Your lovingkindness is good, deliver me; 22 For I am afflicted and needy, And my heart is wounded within me. 23 I am passing like a shadow when it lengthens ; I am shaken off like the locust. 24 My knees are weak from fasting, And my flesh has grown lean, without fatness. 25 I also have become a reproach to them; When they see me, they wag their head. 26 Help me, O LORD my God ; Save me according to Your lovingkindness. 27 And let them know that this is Your hand ; You, LORD, have done it. 28 Let them curse, but You bless ; When they arise, they shall be ashamed, But Your servant shall be glad. 29 Let my accusers be clothed with dishonor, And let them cover themselves with their own shame as with a robe. 30 With my mouth I will give thanks abundantly to the LORD ; And in the midst of many I will praise Him. 31 For He stands at the right hand of the needy, To save him from those who judge his soul.
< Message edited by Marcus. -- 11/19/2009 11:38:21 PM >
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 12:06:57 AM
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dbark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
That Psalm isn't asking for assassins but God to judge the wicked. Understand the context and understand how Obama is seen by those with the sticker.
quote:
Psalm 109:1 O God of my praise, Do not be silent ! 2 For they have opened the wicked and deceitful mouth against me; They have spoken against me with a lying tongue. 3 They have also surrounded me with words of hatred, And fought against me without cause. 4 In return for my love they act as my accusers ; But I am in prayer. 5 Thus they have repaid me evil for good And hatred for my love. 6 Appoint a wicked man over him, And let an accuser stand at his right hand. 7 When he is judged, let him come forth guilty, And let his prayer become sin. 8 Let his days be few ; Let another take his office. 9 Let his children be fatherless And his wife a widow. 10 Let his children wander about and beg ; And let them seek sustenance far from their ruined homes. 11 Let the creditor seize all that he has, And let strangers plunder the product of his labor. 12 Let there be none to extend lovingkindness to him, Nor any to be gracious to his fatherless children. 13 Let his posterity be cut off ; In a following generation let their name be blotted out. 14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD, And do not let the sin of his mother be blotted out. 15 Let them be before the LORD continually, That He may cut off their memory from the earth ; 16 Because he did not remember to show lovingkindness, But persecuted the afflicted and needy man, And the despondent in heart, to put them to death. 17 He also loved cursing, so it came to him; And he did not delight in blessing, so it was far from him. 18 But he clothed himself with cursing as with his garment, And it entered into his body like water And like oil into his bones. 19 Let it be to him as a garment with which he covers himself, And for a belt with which he constantly girds himself. 20 Let this be the reward of my accusers from the LORD, And of those who speak evil against my soul. 21 But You, O GOD, the Lord, deal kindly with me for Your name's sake ; Because Your lovingkindness is good, deliver me; 22 For I am afflicted and needy, And my heart is wounded within me. 23 I am passing like a shadow when it lengthens ; I am shaken off like the locust. 24 My knees are weak from fasting, And my flesh has grown lean, without fatness. 25 I also have become a reproach to them; When they see me, they wag their head. 26 Help me, O LORD my God ; Save me according to Your lovingkindness. 27 And let them know that this is Your hand ; You, LORD, have done it. 28 Let them curse, but You bless ; When they arise, they shall be ashamed, But Your servant shall be glad. 29 Let my accusers be clothed with dishonor, And let them cover themselves with their own shame as with a robe. 30 With my mouth I will give thanks abundantly to the LORD ; And in the midst of many I will praise Him. 31 For He stands at the right hand of the needy, To save him from those who judge his soul.
I strongly doubt that. I think if they wanted context it wouldn't have taken much more room on that bumper sticker to add Psalm 109:1-31.
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"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 12:48:47 AM
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Marcus.
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Not necessarily. I highly doubt whoever made those bumper stickers would have chosen that verse or asked people to pray to God if they wanted assassins.
Would you say the same of man who originally prayed these words thousands years ago? Would praying to God to end the rule of the wicked be "appalling, disgusting, and borderline criminal"?
< Message edited by Marcus. -- 11/20/2009 12:55:31 AM >
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 9:28:41 AM
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NotreDame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
quote:
ORIGINAL: NiceGuy
I think that those bumper stickers are appalling, disgusting, and borderline criminal, but I don't know who is producing them so I'd be very hesistant to start pointing fingers at the "religious right" ... whovever that is.
This bumper stick is not remotely close to being criminal. This bumper sticker does not implicate the incitement test announced by the U.S. Supreme Court in the opinion of Brandenburg v. Ohio .
Second, Schaeffer's remarks are problematic, for the exact same reasons your hasty judgment is troublesome. It is not at all clear those placing this bumper sticker are advocating for a "bloody revolution" in the U.S., as opposed to using the bumper sticker to express a strong dislike and disagreement with the president. Extreme messages can sometimes best be understood as hyperbole and not to be construed literally. Perhaps some parallel examples would be, "Democrats: Kill them all," or Shakespeare's famous line of, "First thing we do, lets kill all the lawyers," from Henry VI.
Both can be understood as expressing irritation and dislike for a certain class of people, as opposed to literally advocating death to every person within the group! Shakespeare's famous line from Henry VI has gained popularity, not only in U.S. culture, but globally, and is commonly used by the public to express their disdain and frustration with lawyers and the legal field, as opposed to advocating for their swift and immediate execution. Ironically enough, however, this line from Henry VI has been misconstrued. It is believed and argued by some, this line from Henry IV is praise for lawyers, as opposed to a derisive comment about them. This is but more evidence of a phrase using hyperbole and not to be understood literally.
There is no evidence here those individuals with this bumper sticker affixed to their car are advocating for violence, as opposed to using hyperbole, extreme language, to express their disdain and dislike for the president. There is no evidence Christians are presently arming themselves for a holy "jihad" or this bumper stick instigates, provokes, advocates, or demands Christians arm themselves and engaged in a holy "jihad" against the president or the U.S. government. This is one man's paranoia, unjustified hysteria, dominating his thinking while simultaneously abandoning any and all rational thought on this matter. Your argument is inundated with the same perils.
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 10:29:33 AM
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Frontporch
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quote:
NotreDame - It is not at all clear those placing this bumper sticker are advocating for a "bloody revolution" in the U.S., as opposed to using the bumper sticker to express a strong dislike and disagreement with the president.
I would suggest that the verse in question is implicitly loaded and in stark contrast to other available t-shirts such as "Pray for Obama - 1 Timothy 2:1-2". The Christ affirming personal worldview proclaimed by "Christians" is clearly disregarded in the political arena, testament to that is often plain in these forums.
quote:
Extreme messages can sometimes best be understood as hyperbole and not to be construed literally.
I would simply question such "extreme" messages used by "Christians" and obviously it was not merely taken as hyperbole by many. I would think those professing Christianity would tend to walk a more "narrow" path not only with this issue but in all areas of life.
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 10:46:45 AM
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wing2000
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quote:
That Psalm isn't asking for assassins but God to judge the wicked. Understand the context and understand how Obama is seen by those with the sticker.
yea, it's their potential mis-understanding of scripture that is troublesome.
It's a disgusting bumber sticker.
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 10:47:59 AM
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Lapidoth
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We know, Christians need to roll-over and shut-up.
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 10:58:36 AM
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cow451
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There are many examples, like this one, of poor taste bumper stickers. That's why I don't buy or use them because it only encourages their use.
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 10:59:35 AM
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jazzact13
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For an example of what passes for "thinking" in Frank Schaeffer's mind, see this (there's a link there to his huffpo article, but I refuse to link to anything huffpo--doing sojo is distasteful enough).
quote:
The same hate machine I was part of is still attacking all abortionists as “murderers.” And today once again the “pro-life” leaders are busy ducking their personal responsibility for people acting on their words. The people who stir up the fringe never take responsibility. But I’d like to say on this day after a man was murdered in cold blood for preforming abortions that I — and the people I worked with in the religious right, the Republican Party, the pro-life movement and the Roman Catholic Church — all contributed to this killing by our foolish and incendiary words.
This had to do with the Tiller killing earlier this year. His attempt to implicate the whole movement based on one person's actions is, first off, without any support, and second, tasteless and simply self-serving. I am pro-life, and abortion is murder, but that does not make me a contributor to the actions of a nutjob.
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 11:07:18 AM
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Frontporch
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quote:
Lapidoth - We know, Christians need to roll-over and shut-up.
I know you read what Huckabee had to say...so do you agree or disagree? There is a difference between discussing policy and ad hominesque attacks. Huckabee said that "he found it "deplorable" and "shameful" that his fellow Republicans were attacking the president for even the most trivial or well-intentioned matters." So we shall see just how far people who call Huckabee "Classy" and "the Man" take his perspective to heart.
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 11:44:15 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
Frank Schaeffer
Francis Schaeffer
I do believe that that is one apple that fell very far from the tree.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 11:49:40 AM
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Rockwall
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The left want to murder and dismember innocent men, women, and children in TX because that is where George Bush is from, here's proof: Bumper sticker reads "BOMB TEXAS".
LINK 1
Is that not the most idiotic thing you have ever heard? Basing your opinions off of a bumper sticker? The bumper sticker I posted is more straight forward than the one about Obama, which is ambiguous when taken out of context.
Frank Schaeffer is just another Obama zealot comparing the religious-right to the Taliban and should be denounced not applauded.
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 11:59:03 AM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Frontporch
quote:
Lapidoth - We know, Christians need to roll-over and shut-up.
I know you read what Huckabee had to say...so do you agree or disagree? There is a difference between discussing policy and ad hominesque attacks. Huckabee said that "he found it "deplorable" and "shameful" that his fellow Republicans were attacking the president for even the most trivial or well-intentioned matters." So we shall see just how far people who call Huckabee "Classy" and "the Man" take his perspective to heart.
Perhaps you should watch Huckabees show
on Saturday or Sunday nights.
He is the MAN. But he has other things to say as well.
This bumper sticker bit is a bit ad hominesque attack
against Christians. Their intent (just guessing) is that
they wish someone else is President. I agree with that.
The most offensive bumper sticker I saw was
OBAMA/BIDEN
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Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 12:02:14 PM
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jazzact13
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And how about all those "F the President" window stickers I saw when President Bush was in office?
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 12:14:10 PM
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Frontporch
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quote:
jazzact13 - And how about all those "F the President" window stickers I saw when President Bush was in office?
I stand corrected..."Christians" therefore may conduct themselves in the same way!
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 12:22:17 PM
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Frontporch
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quote:
Lapidoth - The most offensive bumper sticker I saw was
OBAMA/BIDEN
At least it was just a bumper sticker...it was the previous 8 years that have proved to be the most offensive to many people!!! That travesty is now history, time will tell about the next 4 and I will withhold judgement till then...
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 12:43:56 PM
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NotreDame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Frontporch
quote:
NotreDame - It is not at all clear those placing this bumper sticker are advocating for a "bloody revolution" in the U.S., as opposed to using the bumper sticker to express a strong dislike and disagreement with the president.
I would suggest that the verse in question is implicitly loaded
quote:
Extreme messages can sometimes best be understood as hyperbole and not to be construed literally.
quote:
would simply question such "extreme" messages used by "Christians" and obviously it was not merely taken as hyperbole by many.
Unless you have conversed with the "many" then you do not know what you are talking about and are merely guessing and speculating.
quote:
I would think those professing Christianity would tend to walk a more "narrow" path not only with this issue but in all areas of life.
So you say, but your opinion as to what Christians "would" do aside, let's not forget Christians can and are involved in the political process, and there is no prohibition for Christians to avoid political satire or expressing disagreement with its leaders.
quote:
I would suggest that the verse in question is implicitly loaded
Never denied this but it is one thing to assert a verse is implicitly loaded and quite another to argue those who conjured up the verse on t-shirts and bumper stickers desire, intend, or want President Obama to die quickly, his wife widowed, and his children slain, or anyone wearing/placing this bumper sticker on their car is advocating the same.
< Message edited by NotreDame -- 11/20/2009 12:50:43 PM >
_____________________________
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James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Religious right is "trawling for assassins" - 11/20/2009 1:59:07 PM
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Frontporch
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quote:
NotreDame - and there is no prohibition for Christians to avoid political satire or expressing disagreement with its leaders.
I don't believe I suggested that Christians aren't to be involved in the political process however there should be a difference in deportment. The Pat Robertson's and those of his ilk do more damage than good which is perhaps why some pundits and people compare the Religious Right to the Taliban...and I am not saying that it is always justified.
quote:
Unless you have conversed with the "many" then you do not know what you are talking about and are merely guessing and speculating
I would suggest doing a search of "Pray for Obama" and you will find many blogs, and news outlets that have picked up the issue. Further they often tie verse 9 with 8 which makes for an explicit statement supporting the belief that it was clearly intended as a "Pray for Obama to die" message.
quote:
...and quite another to argue those who conjured up the verse...
If as you suggest the possibility exists that this was meant as hyperbole then it was an exceptionally poor choice. More importantly the choice has led to a once again casting of "christians" as right wing nuts!! We already have Wiley Drake and Steve Anderson, and I'm sure others who take it to the extreme though counter to any biblical teaching.
I believe the Bible is quite clear on the role of the Chrisitian in political matters of authority and that ethic sends a distinctive message of a higher standard.
* I do like your use of the word "conjured" as several meanings are possible....
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