Let's be friends and courtship (Full Version)

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tz3 -> Let's be friends and courtship (11/5/2009 10:06:53 PM)

Okay so I am a woman and so I will speak from a woman's point of view sort of speak based on some things I have read and some sermons I have heard preached.

1) As a woman I don't necessarily care to become friends first with a guy. I like dating as much as the next guy. It's fun and you get to know a lot about a person. Perhaps enough about a person to determine weather or not that person is marriage material and if they are marriage material weather or not there are more pros than cons to this person as to weather or not I care to invest more time in them.

2) If a guy makes it past this stage then I want to be friends before I marry. Sorry guys you knew I would play that card eventually. Women need time to build a relationship. Part of building a relationship is learning to trust the guy and his judgement after all if I am going to pay the consequences for his decisions as the effect the whole family, especially if his decision is contrary to my opinion and/or advice, I need to see that he makes stable god fearing unselfish decisions and I need to see how is attitude changes under pressure over time. Now you can, if you are the creative, manipulative kind of person create situations that would purposely test him and his character. Some people are good at this, I am not. I really hate the manipulative idea, but it is faster than waiting for time to reveal the truth.

3) Even though I have had a pastor say that if a man tithes 10% of his income every month plus gives to other charities with out fuss or fan fare and pays his bills on time and treats a Waiter or waitress with grace, mercy and respect then you have a good guy.

Problem with this I don't know of any guy who is going to show you their checking account on the 1st 3 dates and talk is cheep. He can say he does all these things and he can do all these things in front of you to impress you but if you were to look at his finances over a 3 ot 5 year period you may find out be is only doing it to impress you. So if your afraid of exposing your warts and all to someone and being rejected then what are you afraid of what do you have to hide?

Any woman who gets to know you and fall in love with you is so not going to be looking at weather you squeeze the tooth paste tube from the end or the middle and care to break up of something so insignificant. If you leave your socks around, who cares she isn't perfect either. However if you plop your buttisimo down on the couch and expect her to get up and wait on you and clean house or clean up the dinner dishes without so much as a single finger being lifted on your part before you marry it doesn't get any better after you marry. That would be a wart worth asking yourself if your willing to live with until death do us part. And guys think we women are going to marry them after 3 dates and maybe 3 to 6 months of courtship if he keeps us at such arms length we can't determine if he is worth it or not because we can't gather enough information to do our homework and be happy with a life long life changing decision? Do men realize what women give up when they say I do? If they decide to be a traditional stay at home wife they give up friends, family, some times location, job, sometimes education or further education, freedom to spend their money how they want when they want or where they want not to mention how much they want. The freedom to eat or not eat as they used to, exercise as they used to. A woman who marries is incredibly flexible desiring to work everything out will bend over backward to keep things peaceful and working smoothly even if it means sacrificing personal care to care for someone else including the spouse. Where as the guy keeps working same place he always has, hanging out with the same friends he always has, going to church the same place he always has (as he is the spiritual head of his house hold she goes where he says) unless the economy or by mutual agreement or job demands dictate a change for him, he is stable and if he chooses to move to be with her that is really the only exception out side mutual agreement. A twenty something inexperienced wanting to be rescued from whatever circumstance their in young lady may fall head over heals for a stable guy and never bat an eye lash at what she is giving up in my day and marry the guy, but we have all seen where ill informed choices has landed us....in no fault divorce court.

So I wouldn't be so hasty and dogmatic if I were a guy to say that women have i backward or all wrong wanting to be friends. Being friends has it's advantages. You can get to know the other person without emotional promiscuity creating connections be they mental, emotional or lead to physical connections before a logical decision can be made. Yes, with out a doubt this guy is worthy of all that and a bag a chips and I want the whole world to know he is mine. Once that decision is made there really is not going back unless you majorly screw up and hurt her and even then she may just make excuses for you and show you grace and mercy because love is blind and anyone who has had a successful marriage will tell you that working through the tough times and come through it victorious draws a couple closer together it definitely does not drive them apart.

Ya, I know I am going to get a lot of flack for this, but go ahead it will just fuel some good discussion.



Bryanfromiowa -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/6/2009 12:19:12 AM)

1) Dating


2) Friendship


3) Marriage


in that order i like good post



A-Mighty-Oak -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/6/2009 10:25:12 PM)

quote:

Do men realize what women give up when they say I do? If they decide to be a traditional stay at home wife they give up friends, family, some times location, job, sometimes education or further education, freedom to spend their money how they want when they want or where they want not to mention how much they want. The freedom to eat or not eat as they used to, exercise as they used to. A woman who marries is incredibly flexible desiring to work everything out will bend over backward to keep things peaceful and working smoothly even if it means sacrificing personal care to care for someone else including the spouse. Where as the guy keeps working same place he always has, hanging out with the same friends he always has, going to church the same place he always has (as he is the spiritual head of his house hold she goes where he says) unless the economy or by mutual agreement or job demands dictate a change for him, he is stable and if he chooses to move to be with her that is really the only exception out side mutual agreement.


Now I might be the exception to the rule, but generally speaking I think that while a woman should probably be on board with a man's mission, that the man oughta be the person who makes the sacrifice and move to wear you are instead.

Also, women should not have to give up their friends for the sake of a job either. Bottom line men should make sacrifices too as marriage is really a 100-100 commitment.



tz3 -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/7/2009 12:57:49 AM)

I appreciate your willingness to sacrifice and you will make some woman happy some day no doubt, but the first time out of the shoot a newly married young lady once she marries and especially once she starts having kids loses friends. The original single friends either lose interest or can not relate to her new status as the conversation tends to revolve around the hubby and things the single person does not do. It's like being face to face and one person is talking about the latest episode of Friends and the other is now talking about the joys of Angling enthusiastically and that is all they can talk about because they haven't watched the latest episode of Friends and therefore conversation tends to peter out and the friend stops calling and then is unavailable. If children come along it happens even quicker as kids are the only thing she usually talks about and the single friend gets board with the conversation. Just as well anyway because she usually needs other women who are either going through the same things as her or older whom she can glean advice from. Sure you may have the faithful friend or 2 that you talk to over the phone now and then but going out with the girls partying comes to a screeching stop for the most part. For women this is really hard if they are very sociable. Sure she will bounce back pretty quickly as a sociable person makes friends easily but it isn't the quantity of friends a woman has it is the quality of friends she has. If the friends don't reciprocate when she needs them then they aren't really friends but acquaintances not to be depended on for anything important and just like it took time to become friends with you it takes women time to become good friends with each other as well. Being able to depend on someone is important. Military wives have this especially hard as they must depend on no one for anything. With constantly moving from one base to another my hats off to these women and their indomitable spirit. These women are really like single mom espesially when the hubby is deloyed. Ofcourse this is also true for women who marry men who"s work makes them travel a majority of the time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit

quote:

Do men realize what women give up when they say I do? If they decide to be a traditional stay at home wife they give up friends, family, some times location, job, sometimes education or further education, freedom to spend their money how they want when they want or where they want not to mention how much they want. The freedom to eat or not eat as they used to, exercise as they used to. A woman who marries is incredibly flexible desiring to work everything out will bend over backward to keep things peaceful and working smoothly even if it means sacrificing personal care to care for someone else including the spouse. Where as the guy keeps working same place he always has, hanging out with the same friends he always has, going to church the same place he always has (as he is the spiritual head of his house hold she goes where he says) unless the economy or by mutual agreement or job demands dictate a change for him, he is stable and if he chooses to move to be with her that is really the only exception out side mutual agreement.


Now I might be the exception to the rule, but generally speaking I think that while a woman should probably be on board with a man's mission, that the man oughta be the person who makes the sacrifice and move to wear you are instead.

Also, women should not have to give up their friends for the sake of a job either. Bottom line men should make sacrifices too as marriage is really a 100-100 commitment.



A-Mighty-Oak -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/7/2009 8:20:52 AM)

Now those are very interesting points Tz3! I had not thought of it that way at all!



tz3 -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/7/2009 11:54:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit

Now those are very interesting points Tz3! I had not thought of it that way at all!


Thanks, many people do not think this far in advance and often times end up scratching their heads wondering why miss Susie doesn't call any more to hang out. When you have to consult the hubby schedule and then the kid schedule and then attempt to find the same day and time your friend is available to go out it takes some of the excitement of the spontaneity out of the fun and can be greatly frustrating when you go weeks or months without getting out and talking to another adult of your own gender because your schedules just don't mesh. Since women tend to be the primary care taker of the family it is much easier for the guy to up and hang out with another neighbor guy friend. Women being the social calendar historians of the family usually sacrifice this because it stops forward motion for a time but there comes a time when she has to come up for air and take care of herself. If hubby is good at making sure she gets time out away from the house and kids regularly he is really doing himself a favor, and getting out includes the man as it is important for a couple to continue dating even after you say I do.

Now I know there are some exceptions to this especially if your a single dad and there are some guys that take just as much interest in the family as their wife does and we may have one or two pipe in here before long.



A-Mighty-Oak -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/7/2009 3:17:03 PM)

quote:

If hubby is good at making sure she gets time out away from the house and kids regularly he is really doing himself a favor, and getting out includes the man as it is important for a couple to continue dating even after you say I do.


Now that is something to think about if I pursue a relationship in the future.



Tinkerbell_ -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/8/2009 12:01:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit

quote:

Do men realize what women give up when they say I do? If they decide to be a traditional stay at home wife they give up friends, family, some times location, job, sometimes education or further education, freedom to spend their money how they want when they want or where they want not to mention how much they want. The freedom to eat or not eat as they used to, exercise as they used to. A woman who marries is incredibly flexible desiring to work everything out will bend over backward to keep things peaceful and working smoothly even if it means sacrificing personal care to care for someone else including the spouse. Where as the guy keeps working same place he always has, hanging out with the same friends he always has, going to church the same place he always has (as he is the spiritual head of his house hold she goes where he says) unless the economy or by mutual agreement or job demands dictate a change for him, he is stable and if he chooses to move to be with her that is really the only exception out side mutual agreement.


Now I might be the exception to the rule, but generally speaking I think that while a woman should probably be on board with a man's mission, that the man oughta be the person who makes the sacrifice and move to wear you are instead.

Also, women should not have to give up their friends for the sake of a job either. Bottom line men should make sacrifices too as marriage is really a 100-100 commitment.

And I would generally agree with you, but sometimes it's just better for the family in general for the woman to move.

I know if FG and I were to get serious then I would move where he is because there is a bigger support system for the two us where he is versus where I am. He would have NO ONE besides my family, and I have a ton of friends and family where he is.

And the jobs are better for me so that would be double incentive.

All in all it does depend on the couple, the circumstances, and what is going on in their lives at the time.

But for the most part I agree with you. [;)]



mutinywxgirl -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/8/2009 6:39:05 AM)

I will be the one to move to him. He's significantly more stable and has the means to support us both. He will allow me to determine if I want to work, but God has given us both the same calling in life, so yeah, I will work. For now, it's just a matter of waiting on God's timing to see where He's taking us both and how quickly.



12learning -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/8/2009 9:34:53 AM)

..this is not flack, but to be honest I tend to drive myself nuts when I project fear based "what about me" decisions on others.. many times God will move me in a direction.. and I can think are you kidding me ?

but I can't see the end from the beginning and I will end up getting with the program and find myself getting though and thinking whoa, God you are good..

one thing comes to mind (no attacks on personalities please) but I remember Joyce Myers talking about (Her words) I was so screwed up, I thought my Husband Dave was out of his mind for being interested in me, and She said.. yeah at first it was rough.. but look at where The Father has brought us... Whoa.. and that's what she was like.. whoa.. and what or where would things be if Dave didn't heed/trust the leading of God ? what if He just looked at the natural ? mmmh ?

..and that's why I'm trying to give up on my own understanding and being patient to wait on Him... He can see ahead of me.. plus I won't drive myself nuts anymore ;)



tz3 -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/9/2009 4:56:52 PM)

While I hear and understand that women would sacrifice their own friends in exchange for security and stability and that it is really up to the couple; I fail to see how that changes the basic need for women to connect with others and be given a break from 24/7 family care. Unless you have family and friends where he lives there is no guarantee your going to get along swimmingly with all of his friends and family unless you have known each other so long that you have been able to work this out or your incredibly lucky. Not to mention in this economy to buy into the illusion that his job is any more secure and stable then yours may or may not be 100% accurate as you could find yourself out of a job the next day and dipping into securities set aside for years to come while trying to find work. So what I was saying really didn't have anything to do with who has the better job or more money ie security and stability but more to do with social, emotional and mental security and how a couple treats each other over the long haul which is determined by the quality of friendship they develop before marriage and the permission they give each other before marriage to continue to have other friends that I would hope would continue into and through marriage. Having experiences that are not shared with the spouse help us to continue to have things to share together as a couple and help each person as individuals not lose themselves or their identity to the other person. After all the thread is Let's be friends and courtship.

I have been given the impression that men don't care to be friends in the beginning. They prefer to date. They are interested in you romantically; for them friendship is a life long process to be worked out. Where as with women we tend to want to be friends first especially the younger and younger the generations get this mentality is really pushed on both boys and girls to help them preserve their purity.

This is where as a person who is now considered to be more mature. **swallowing hard on that one almost choking** I see as a newly single person where I prefer dating to determine if I want to continue with a guy of romantic interest it helps me weed out those I don't want to date and go any further with the relationship. There are those guys that are potential, those guys I have weeded out as not being potentials which I can easily be friends with if they are willing and understand there will never be anything between us, those I prefer only to be friends with and then there are those who are definitely potential, but are not interested in me as anything more than friends. It's that last group that gets dropped all together as for me I can not be friends with a guy I am attracted to but he is not attracted to me....it's torcher. So dating helps me figure out where the guy stands. I can work on being friends after I figure this out.

I have found many men who say they like dating but don't ask. They hang around trying to figure out if your a good fit for them before they ever ask. I guess you could call them trying to be friends. It is very obvious and some times creepy and I am almost always either relieved when they stop or go away as few of them actually strike up conversations. It's really hard if they strike up a conversation one time and hang close and then all of the sudden you find an item with some else. Obviously I wasn't what he was looking for, but that isn't even as disturbing as a guy who has a girlfriend he has kept quiet about and then gets friendly with me and the next time I see him he has proposed to the girlfriend I didn't even know was a girlfriend. It's almost like he had to take one more look before he jumped off the deep end sort of speak. Not quite sure what to make of that.

If this is what I get from guys trying to be "friends" first; I'd rather just date and be done with it, at least I know where I stand and don't get creeped out or lead astray because he changes his mind.

Just a side note question here as I had a fleeting thought. I tend to sit by myself in church service mostly because of my giftings it isn't a good idea for me to get to close to people and I tend to only be involved with chior or women's groups. Guy's please answer this one. Could it be that guy's are not approaching me and are just hanging out near by because they would have to be more bold to approach me alone? What exactly could anyone learn about anyone in a church service without talking to them that would make them cross you off their list?



willfs -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/9/2009 9:13:19 PM)

I don't disagree with anything you said but I don't know many guys who are the type you describe. I imagine woman have to go through a great deal to make a relationship work and I think it's good that guys know what a woman has to give up and your point of view on the following topics, but I feel like you are generalizing some things about guys that you can't say about many, many guys.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tz3
Sorry guys you knew I would play that card eventually. Women need time to build a relationship.

....And guys think we women are going to marry them after 3 dates and maybe 3 to 6 months of courtship if he keeps us at such arms length we can't determine if he is worth it or not because we can't gather enough information to do our homework and be happy with a life long life changing decision?


The two serious relationships I had the girl was heavily pushing me to the alter after a few months. I was the one who wanted to get to know her better. I just feel like you are painting guys in a negative light. Woman can also not respect the need to develop a relationshhp at a healthy pace. Have you known a few guys who have a problem with getting to know someone before marriage?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tz3
So I wouldn't be so hasty and dogmatic if I were a guy to say that women have it backward or all wrong wanting to be friends.


Are there that many guys who are against a woman getting to know someone?

Can you still get to know them well while dating them? Are you saying if you skip the friends stage and go into dating you can't really get to know a guy no matter how long you date them? I guess this is where I am confused in what you are saying.

I have never shot down a girl because she just wants to be friends first. I am looking for someone who is my best friend. If I liked her enough I would be willing to be friends at first. I would be happy just to be around her.

However, I don't always understand what she means when she says that she wants to start out as friends. This may be because I haven't done this. If the frienship first thing is what I think it is = it is about two people spending time together without romance, commitment, or too big an emotional attachment. Please know that my following thoughts are not to argue that frienship first is a bad idea but to express some of my concerns for what it could become.

This friendship will not be like any other friendship out there. A guy is willing to, and even really wants to do some things he would never, ever do if it wasn't with a woman he was really smitten with. He would never do this in a friendship or for friendships sake. So it would be hard to keep the emotional aspect out of it for him. For a guy to do the things that take place in such a relationship I would think he would have to feel something for her that is more than frienship. If he really likes the girl and is legit then he would be willing to have such a frienship but this means he really LIKES her and thinks of her as more than frienship material. But I have never been there.

I just recall a movie where a girl told a guy she wanted to just be friends with him. It was a comedy and he was an airhead so he took her literally and started tackling her and throwing a football at her real hard. She couldn't handle this and was not expecting it at all. My point is that all of the female/male close friendships I have seen look like girl/girl relationships. I have seen some guys suffer doing somethings they hated and would never choose to do in any other relationship. She didn't suffer because the relationship looked just like all the girl/girl relationships she had. Every guy/girl relationship that I have seen had a guy who was interested in her. Why? For a guy to be close friends with a girl he has to really like her. I am not for guys mascurading as friends in order to get a girl. I am just saying that when he goes through so much to be her "friend" and she thinks of him as only friends it can be difficult on his heart.

Such a relationship might be good. If the guy really likes her and is willing to give, without recieving anything exept her presence then he is motivated enough to make a relationship work. But I would also caution that some pretty creepy guys can fake frienship for quite awhile

quote:

ORIGINAL: tz3
Do men realize what women give up when they say I do? If they decide to be a traditional stay at home wife they give up friends, family, some times location, job, sometimes education or further education, freedom to spend their money how they want when they want or where they want not to mention how much they want. The freedom to eat or not eat as they used to, exercise as they used to. A woman who marries is incredibly flexible desiring to work everything out will bend over backward to keep things peaceful and working smoothly even if it means sacrificing personal care to care for someone else including the spouse. Where as the guy keeps working same place he always has, hanging out with the same friends he always has, going to church the same place he always has (as he is the spiritual head of his house hold she goes where he says) unless the economy or by mutual agreement or job demands dictate a change for him, he is stable and if he chooses to move to be with her that is really the only exception out side mutual agreement.


Shouldn't this be something where the two sit down and decide what parts they want to give up and what parts they do not? However, the above points are good for us guys to know.

I dont' think I will experience this type of relationship. I do not make much money. If I met a girl I would probably move where she lives and develop my friends around where she is. I would think we would find a church we both like.

As above, the following is only adding some to the discussion and not my dogma. I have heard that relationships where the woman becomes more apart of the guys life are more enjoyable than vice versa. I have also seen this in real life. I dated a girl who was real assertive and controlling. We would have lived at her place, spent time around her friends and parents, joined her gym and done all of her stuff. I was miserable and I think she was as welll. However, I know women who moved to the guys town/place, spent all the time around his friends/family and became apart of his life and they seem happy about it. I am not saying the woman needs to wear herself out doing this. I would hate for some woman to marry into misery. I just wonder if there is something to a woman becoming more apart of his circle than vice versa.



Enoch195 -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/10/2009 12:37:44 PM)

I think regardless of whether you are man or woman... you both make sacrifices along the way...
When a man says I do, part of his freedom is essentially gone as well. He cannot just uproot
and take a job in another country by himself... he needs to take into account his wife's feelings.

There sounds like you have a negative view of men in general. But remember, you attract who you
are. If you are negative and untrusting, you will likely attract and be attracted to someone who is the
same way.

And it sounds like dating as though you are shopping for a mate. It would sound like dating is less involved
than being friends is. And it also seems a bit selfish to date people and not care about the trail of blood left
when you break up with him. As a guy, I'm not sure I would like to date someone who doesn't seem to care
about me but only about what they can get out of it. That is how it comes across. It is all about me, my wants,
my desires, how I feel... and very self-centred... sorry to be mean but that is how it comes across.

It always appears that you have a hard time trusting people especially guys. Now there is a difference being cautious
and not revealing too much too soon. But going into a mindset where you are initially untrusting of him is not good at all.
If you have a hard time trusting people, you will likely be untrusting in any guy you date.

And the reality is I think it does go both ways... Men and women both need time to develop a relationship.

So my question is... how is dating and friendship different?

Dating... you can date and break up and no feelings involved... unless you are thinking about speed dating...
If you can't be friends with someone, you shouldn't date them.



shilo45318 -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/10/2009 2:56:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bryanfromiowa

1) Dating


2) Friendship


3) Marriage


in that order i like good post


I hope that what you mean is:
1)Dating
2)Dating / Friendship
3)Marriage

If I am dating someone and they tell me they want to stop dating, and just be friends for awhile I don't think that the next step would be Marriage.



willfs -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/10/2009 7:26:26 PM)

My order is

1) Think about dating her
2) Date her in my imagination
3) Say hi to her at her wedding reception



blueeyedgirl2 -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/10/2009 7:33:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willfs

My order is

1) Think about dating her
2) Date her in my imagination
3) Say hi to her at her wedding reception


Oh willfs. . . that made me chuckle (just a tad). . . [:)]



tz3 -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/10/2009 8:31:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willfs

I don't disagree with anything you said but I don't know many guys who are the type you describe. I imagine woman have to go through a great deal to make a relationship work and I think it's good that guys know what a woman has to give up and your point of view on the following topics, but I feel like you are generalizing some things about guys that you can't say about many, many guys.


ORIGINAL: tz3
quote:

Sorry guys you knew I would play that card eventually. Women need time to build a relationship.

....And guys think we women are going to marry them after 3 dates and maybe 3 to 6 months of courtship if he keeps us at such arms length we can't determine if he is worth it or not because we can't gather enough information to do our homework and be happy with a life long life changing decision?


The two serious relationships I had the girl was heavily pushing me to the alter after a few months. I was the one who wanted to get to know her better. I just feel like you are painting guys in a negative light. Woman can also not respect the need to develop a relationship at a healthy pace. Have you known a few guys who have a problem with getting to know someone before marriage?


Sorry to hear she was pushing you. While I have had more than a few on the fast track which doesn't bother me as I tend to move fast myself, although not as fast as the experience you had; it is a bit much, what makes me nuts are the ones that rule you out from afar without ever speaking to you. Not that my generation didn't do this but we were not quite so obvious about it and we kept those that we ruled out as friends without them knowing it or ever having to stay I just want to be friends. It was just understood because we didn't give the other person any impression we were interested so there were no mixed signals being given.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tz3
So I wouldn't be so hasty and dogmatic if I were a guy to say that women have it backward or all wrong wanting to be friends.


quote:

Are there that many guys who are against a woman getting to know someone?

Most guys I talk to want to date first as they are interested in the female romantically, but when it comes to reality they are also the very same guys usually who are checking the woman out before they ever ask. Again not a problem if it is done nonchalantly and unsuspectingly. The difference here is if you go in and you can't keep your eyes off the woman and your doing everything you can to be near her but not talking to her it is way obvious your there only for her and not really interested in what is going on at hand and if you never talk to her it is creepy and boarder line stalking. If your going to go out of your way to be near her introduce yourself and ask her out for a cup of coffee already.

quote:

Can you still get to know them well while dating them?
Of course, I never said you couldn't.

quote:

Are you saying if you skip the friends stage and go into dating you can't really get to know a guy no matter how long you date them?
No, what I am saying is it's a waste of time to act like friends to get to know some one in order to determine if they are marriage material for you and it sets you up for problems. Say your doing this and the woman has no idea or maybe she does but she isn't going to say anything or make the first move as that is the guys responsibility or maybe she is shy or none aggressive and wouldn't even think of doing that. You have just invested a monumental amount of time thinking about her and the two of you and your not even on her radar. Now you introduce yourself to her and she accepts now you know things about her but she knows nothing about you, so you play dumb while she does her homework asking you questions and you have nothing to contribute to conversation because she hasn't hit on anything you need to know yet. Either she is oblivious to the fact that your not talking because she could carry a conversation all on her own or she is wondering why the cat's got your tongue or maybe she wonders if your even paying attention to conversation. Mean while your light years ahead of her and beginning to fantasies about her when that is the last thing you should be allowing your brain to do because it just makes you want to move the relationship along faster than it should go or you over compensate and go really slow. None of the problems need to be there if you had just been direct and allowed both of you to explore at the same pace.

quote:

I guess this is where I am confused in what you are saying.
I know that isn't the only scenario, but it is the best one I could come up with; hope it helps clear up the confusion.

quote:

I have never shot down a girl because she just wants to be friends first. I am looking for someone who is my best friend. If I liked her enough I would be willing to be friends at first. I would be happy just to be around her.
Bravo

quote:

However, I don't always understand what she means when she says that she wants to start out as friends. This may be because I haven't done this. If the friendship first thing is what I think it is = it is about two people spending time together without romance, commitment, or too big an emotional attachment. Please know that my following thoughts are not to argue that friendship first is a bad idea but to express some of my concerns for what it could become.

This friendship will not be like any other friendship out there. A guy is willing to, and even really wants to do some things he would never, ever do if it wasn't with a woman he was really smitten with. He would never do this in a friendship or for friendships sake. So it would be hard to keep the emotional aspect out of it for him. For a guy to do the things that take place in such a relationship I would think he would have to feel something for her that is more than friendship. If he really likes the girl and is legit then he would be willing to have such a friendship but this means he really LIKES her and thinks of her as more than friendship material. But I have never been there.

I just recall a movie where a girl told a guy she wanted to just be friends with him. It was a comedy and he was an airhead so he took her literally and started tackling her and throwing a football at her real hard. She couldn't handle this and was not expecting it at all. My point is that all of the female/male close friendships I have seen look like girl/girl relationships. I have seen some guys suffer doing somethings they hated and would never choose to do in any other relationship. She didn't suffer because the relationship looked just like all the girl/girl relationships she had. Every guy/girl relationship that I have seen had a guy who was interested in her. Why? For a guy to be close friends with a girl he has to really like her. I am not for guys masquerading as friends in order to get a girl. I am just saying that when he goes through so much to be her "friend" and she thinks of him as only friends it can be difficult on his heart.


I hear what you are saying and most very young inexperienced girls don't understand the guy's point of view on this. I apologize. I think when a woman says she just wants to be friends that is exactly what it should mean and nothing more. Don't give mixed signals, don't give the guy false hope, and don't let him think you could change your mind at a later date.

I think women who like to take things slow and get to know you need to say it just like that. I wouldn't mind getting to know you, but I like to take things slow for now I would rather just hang together in the group or work together. Which to me means friends with potential with out saying let's be friends as the friend part will take care of itself over time. It gives hope and both people know where they stand it is open ended. No heavy commitments. Problems is no one has ever told these girls to say it this way so they don't know any better. If men like it this way they need to start demanding that women verbalize it this way by bringing this discussion up in mixed company and leaving the women mull it over in their heads where they will choose to do this of their own free will. You could change a whole generation in how they communicate to each other.

quote:

Such a relationship might be good. If the guy really likes her and is willing to give, without receiving anything except her presence then he is motivated enough to make a relationship work. But I would also caution that some pretty creepy guys can fake friendship for quite awhile
Thank you very much, my point exactly and to top it off your not seeing the real person inside because it is all show. It is best to be yourself as once the show is over that's what your left with anyway and if she doesn't like what she sees you have just played Russian rullet with both your emotions, and this is the same if the rolls are reversed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tz3
Do men realize what women give up when they say I do? If they decide to be a traditional stay at home wife they give up friends, family, some times location, job, sometimes education or further education, freedom to spend their money how they want when they want or where they want not to mention how much they want. The freedom to eat or not eat as they used to, exercise as they used to. A woman who marries is incredibly flexible desiring to work everything out will bend over backward to keep things peaceful and working smoothly even if it means sacrificing personal care to care for someone else including the spouse. Where as the guy keeps working same place he always has, hanging out with the same friends he always has, going to church the same place he always has (as he is the spiritual head of his house hold she goes where he says) unless the economy or by mutual agreement or job demands dictate a change for him, he is stable and if he chooses to move to be with her that is really the only exception out side mutual agreement.[/b]


quote:

Shouldn't this be something where the two sit down and decide what parts they want to give up and what parts they do not?
I did state exceptions and mutual agreement. Everyone keeps overlooking those words so I am going to bold and underline them.

quote:

However, the above points are good for us guys to know.
Thank you.

quote:

I don't' think I will experience this type of relationship. I do not make much money. If I met a girl I would probably move where she lives and develop my friends around where she is. I would think we would find a church we both like.

As above, the following is only adding some to the discussion and not my dogma. I have heard that relationships where the woman becomes more apart of the guys life are more enjoyable than vice versa. I have also seen this in real life. I dated a girl who was real assertive and controlling. We would have lived at her place, spent time around her friends and parents, joined her gym and done all of her stuff. I was miserable and I think she was as well. However, I know women who moved to the guys town/place, spent all the time around his friends/family and became apart of his life and they seem happy about it. I am not saying the woman needs to wear herself out doing this. I would hate for some woman to marry into misery. I just wonder if there is something to a woman becoming more apart of his circle than vice versa.


Sorry, no! Do not confuse submission or willingness to move to where you are as any indication that the woman will be more submissive or happier. That is completely her choice and temperament. If a woman is controlling or dominating it doesn't matter where she is she will be the same. If this isn't something you like then don't date this kind of woman she isn't going to change.



tz3 -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/10/2009 10:52:16 PM)

ORIGINAL: Enoch195

quote:

I think regardless of whether you are man or woman... you both make sacrifices along the way...
Yes, but there will usually be one person that gives up more or gives in more or sacrifices more, and it isn't an issue unless your keeping score, and if your keeping score you got bigger issues then who sacrificed what when and how often. I never said only one person sacrifices everything. I only spoke from a woman's point of view as I am a woman and feel some men who have not been married yet for the first time on this site may not have considered what a traditional woman gives up and how it impacts her. I felt if they knew they would be a little more understanding as to why it is so important to her to be friends and take what may seem like a long time to make up her mind, but if you give her this time it is better for both of you.

quote:

When a man says I do, part of his freedom is essentially gone as well. He cannot just uproot
and take a job in another country by himself... he needs to take into account his wife's feelings.
Yes, and good point, but this example is after the fact. We were talking about before you say I do making sure your not going to have any regrets. Now this scenario would apply if say you wanted to be a missionary or already had a job which required heavy travel or possible multiple moves. From your point of view you would want a woman who is fixable enough, adventurous enough and hearty enough to handle and adapt to various cultures easily and is strong and independent. You would utilize this extra getting to know you time and friendship time to test the waters to see how she holds up under pressure.

quote:

There sounds like you have a negative view of men in general. But remember, you attract who you
are. If you are negative and untrusting, you will likely attract and be attracted to someone who is the
same way.
Not quite sure where you are getting this. I never said anything of the sort. I stated what I like and dislike and the fact that the new style of "dating" or "friendship" as the terms seem to have been used interchangeably and muddying the definitions is equally confusing and frustrating from this woman's point of view. I feel like there are an over abundant number of singles out there because they go the friendship route in disguise to get to know a member of the opposite sex and if they look long and hard enough they will always find something they do not like. That is not love and it is allowing the intellect a little to much control in the situation in my opinion. But when people's fears are justified because they finally found a reason not to love the other person for and the praise God for them not getting to romantically involved there by avoiding a huge mistake it makes everyone else stop and say wow they might have something there. Mean while they are miserable singles or they have resigned themselves into believing that is what God wants for them. Which that may be true about some, but I doubt it is true about the multitudes everyone keeps talking about everywhere I look. It makes me wonder who they might have over looked that was the right person but they ruled them out over a flaw or challenge or distance or you fill in the excuse. While my way may not be perfect their way of doing things makes it impossible for me to find the right person as everyone seems to be wanting to be "just friends."


quote:

And it sounds like dating as though you are shopping for a mate. It would sound like dating is less involved
than being friends is. And it also seems a bit selfish to date people and not care about the trail of blood left
when you break up with him. As a guy, I'm not sure I would like to date someone who doesn't seem to care
about me but only about what they can get out of it. That is how it comes across. It is all about me, my wants,
my desires, how I feel... and very self-centred... sorry to be mean but that is how it comes across.
Um, seems to me you have a negative view of dating! Dating is not a one night stand! Dating does not require enormous amounts of emotional investment, friendship on the other hand always involves enormous amounts of emotion as the very defining factor of being friends is the sharing of intimate information you wouldn't share with the general populous. Dating does not require a blood trail unless you are becoming mentally, emotionally, and physically intimate with the other person. This would be the "worlds" form of dating and it is negative because it is playing with fire.

Dating isn't any more or less involved then the people who involved and the attitudes they bring to it. Going out on 2 or 3 dates one on one can be done without kissing and intimate hugging and certainly without talking about marriage, kids or sex. Hand holding, and being close doesn't count. If you think it may develop to rapidly being one on one then by mutual agreement you would discuss what activities and with whom you would continue the relationship with. IE group dating, double dating, socials, or chaperons. This is where the guy has an enormous amount of control with how slow or fast a relationship proceeds at through discussion, how often they get together, how often they talk on the phone or other mode of communication and by virtue of what activities they do together and what they discuss while together. If you keep it light and slow then the pace is light and slow, if your an intense fast paced kind of guy then that is what you get. Can and do some women get pushy yup, if you like that and can control that great if not she isn't the one for you move on.

quote:

It always appears that you have a hard time trusting people especially guys. Now there is a difference being cautious
and not revealing too much too soon. But going into a mindset where you are initially untrusting of him is not good at all.
If you have a hard time trusting people, you will likely be untrusting in any guy you date.
Again, I am not sure where you are getting this from. I might venture to guess that if your the sort of guy that likes to think it all through before letting the girl know your interested and what you have planned and I was that girl and you never consulted me but just did things and expected me to be okay with them then yes your statement would be true because you have not earned my trust and you have just proven why I should be on guard with you, and if your plans go arye it will be very hard to get me to do anything with you unless it is discussed ahead of time which is really going to rub you wrong, so no, I would not be the right kind of woman for you and I am okay with that. You have just saved me from making a monumental mistake with you.

Where is if you are direct and you consult me, even if you make a different decision opposite what we discussed I would respect you for that and support you in that unless it were unbiblical. I would be watching to see how it turns out and if it turned out well you would have proven you have sound judgement and therefore could be trusted with more. Dating and courtship is the time to be testing the waters and proving yourself to one another who you really are and how you function and operate on a regular basis. Friends don't care about this they never get this deep unless they become part of your inner circle or you doing business together and depend on one another for something. It is way foolish to give trust freely from the get go because it opens yourself up to hurt and deception and I have had way to many men pretending to be interested in me when all they want to do is scam me out of money so as a woman from my point of view I have every reason to be justified in my position here. I am not a youth surrounded by other youth who can for the most part be trusted. I am an adult woman in my 40's and just because someone says he is a christian that doesn't mean he automatically gets the right to be trusted because of the multitudes that abuse the title. I do not limit myself to just those in my church because I am not interested in a divorced man and most of the never been marrieds are to young for me as it is not socially acceptable for women to marry younger then them and men who are widowed don't exactly go around advertising this to others.

As for the comment about shopping then guilty. Everyone does it. Some are more obvious about it than other, but we all have a list of likes, dislikes, deal breakers, and a wish list of bonuses that we tick off. Some get involved in our activities because they share a similar passion and so they serve the Lord first and relax about getting to know you, but they are still observing and ticking off the pros and cons from their list. Others go out of their way to hang out with you but have no passion or interest for what they are doing and they are ticking off the pros and cons from their list and not really talking to you but it is obvious they are interested in you because everywhere you turn they are there watching you and this is the set that is creepy. They do it and there isn't anything you can do to stop it. If this is what you mean by shopping then not guilty! I would never do this as I do not like it when it is done to me.

Now if you are one of those that is telling me I need to relax and just wait on God and when he brings the right guy my way I will not have a prayer. Well that is all fine and dandy but that doesn't mean I check my brain at the door just because out of the blue one day some guy decides to notice me and get serious. Nor does it mean that just because he likes me I have to date him if there is no attraction on my part. God would have to clearly direct me beyond a shadow of a doubt to over ride this.

quote:

And the reality is I think it does go both ways... Men and women both need time to develop a relationship.
Yes, both need to develop relationships there are just different styles to acomplishing the same thing.

quote:

So my question is... how is dating and friendship different?

Dating is straight forward. Everyone knows where they stand.
Friendship as in starting out as friends never needs to be verbalized as such unless that is all you ever want and thus the need for saying just friends. In which case if the person says this and your attracted to them your just torchering yourself and wasting your time thinking your going to change their mind.

If you have to tell someone you want to start out as friends it's to late. The person being told to slow down is light years ahead of you and may never be able to slow down and just exactly what are the odds that person will be able to sustain that slow pace? Or are you guys hoping she will eventually catch up to you and be moving just as fast as you? That sounds like a big if and that is where a lot of people are getting burned on the friends first move. They invest all this time being friends when they really want more and somewhere along the line he or she has made up her mind your not the one for her and you missed the social cue because you were so infatuated with her and let your heart and head and emotions get carried away and now your grieving and it doesn't even seem to phase them. Ouch that's cold!

quote:

Dating... you can date and break up and no feelings involved... unless you are thinking about speed dating...
If you can't be friends with someone, you shouldn't date them.
I agree that if you can't be friends you shouldn't date. I agree you can date up to 3 times more or less and break up and not be so emotionally invested that it hurts. As for the contrast between dating and speed dating, if the only way you can not be emotionally invested to the point it hurts is to speed date (that is sitting down for one minute and conversing and when the bell rings moving on to the next candidate until all participants have been interviewed) then I would say you have not learned how to guard your heart and not be emotional premiscuous while you are getting to know the other person. But I will also say that the more attracted you are to the other person and the more trust the other person builds up in you the harder it is going to be not to get emotional as the more you trust another person the more personal intimate information you share with that person. I learned the hard way that if someone says they just want to be friends and goes out of their way to build trust but they are not sharing their personal stuff with you, you had better stop sharing your personal stuff and limit your conversation to todays headline news or break it off. When someone says they just want to be friends that will never change and if you can't hold a conversation with that person without holding out some hope they might change their mind your only hurting yourself the other person doesn't get it as there is no attraction there for them; their brains just don't go there and never will. They will never understand why you can be friends with Joe and not be friends with them after all they are an excelent friend and have built so much trust up in you. Well that would be great if they were a girl that I couldn't possible be attracted to, but when it involves someone of the opposite sex there is no shame in admitting you can't be friends with that person because your attracted to them. It just means you know your weak spots and your protecting yourself. It in no way means you don't trust them. Actually it is just the opposite you trust them too much and want more and they are not willing to go there. If they are not willing to go there your actually doing them a favor by leaving them alone as most people have limited time to spend dating and socializing. Why on earth would he want to waste his time talking to me when he could be spending his time finding his perfect match?





tz3 -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/10/2009 11:24:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 12learning

..this is not flack, but to be honest I tend to drive myself nuts when I project fear based "what about me" decisions on others.. many times God will move me in a direction.. and I can think are you kidding me ?

but I can't see the end from the beginning and I will end up getting with the program and find myself getting though and thinking whoa, God you are good..

one thing comes to mind (no attacks on personalities please) but I remember Joyce Myers talking about (Her words) I was so screwed up, I thought my Husband Dave was out of his mind for being interested in me, and She said.. yeah at first it was rough.. but look at where The Father has brought us... Whoa.. and that's what she was like.. whoa.. and what or where would things be if Dave didn't heed/trust the leading of God ? what if He just looked at the natural ? mmmh ?

..and that's why I'm trying to give up on my own understanding and being patient to wait on Him... He can see ahead of me.. plus I won't drive myself nuts anymore ;)


Sorry, I am having a hard time following this and I have read this several times over. It sounds to me your abdicating that I just leave this all up to God, and I am now at this point in my life mostly because I am tired of the kind of guy that reads my bios on dating sites and seems to think I am stupid and desperate enough to succumb to their scams. I haven't had a single serious christian man interested in me out side of sitting really close to me several weekends in a row at church and then all of the sudden stop or go out of his way to avoid me. I am not a weirdo so unless God is telling these men NO loud and clear I am absolutely mystified as to what I am doing that stops them from approaching me unless it is something on their shopping list I didn't measure up to. But above and beyond this I have gotten to the point where I feel God is wanting some one on one time with me to train me in somethings and the timing is wrong for dating so why keep putting myself out there if the timing is wrong. KWIM? I am not a gluten for punishment and I don't need to open doors for the enemy to distract me from what God wants to teach me right now. I agree God knows best and will give me the best and I am now at a point in my walk where if being single for the rest of my life is what God wants because he knows that is how I will be happiest then I am okay with this. He will then take the desire for a man away eventually. If he doesn't then I have hope at some point in time he will bring the right man my way, but that doesn't mean I will check my brain at the door and jump at the first man that finally shows interest in me thinking this must be God's will finally. I do also have a time limit. If I get to retirement age and there still is no one then I don't care if there is someone out there for me, I am not about to marry anyone at this point. It's pointless. I am to old to give him children. My life is complete and it will stay that way.



tz3 -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/10/2009 11:27:53 PM)

Thanks for lightening up the thread. You crack me up!

quote:

ORIGINAL: willfs

My order is

1) Think about dating her
2) Date her in my imagination
3) Say hi to her at her wedding reception



dctalkgirl -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/11/2009 10:14:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willfs

My order is

1) Think about dating her
2) Date her in my imagination
3) Say hi to her at her wedding reception

This is too funny....[:D]

I think my order would be this...

1.)Friends
2.)Dating
3.)Courtship
4.)Marriage
5.)Children
6.)Live happily ever after...[:)]



A-Mighty-Oak -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/11/2009 10:30:34 PM)

Just for the record, I'd much rather be friends with a woman first before dating her, if for nothing else, I am not all that good at dating at all. I should mention that in the past that I have dated women who later married someone else. I am happy to say that I am still friends with these women. [:)]

quote:

Just a side note question here as I had a fleeting thought. I tend to sit by myself in church service mostly because of my giftings it isn't a good idea for me to get to close to people and I tend to only be involved with chior or women's groups. Guy's please answer this one. Could it be that guy's are not approaching me and are just hanging out near by because they would have to be more bold to approach me alone? What exactly could anyone learn about anyone in a church service without talking to them that would make them cross you off their list?


I would say that they need to be more bold.

The only way that a man could learn from you without them talking to you is seeing how you interact with others.



12learning -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/12/2009 2:31:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 12learning

..this is not flack, but to be honest I tend to drive myself nuts when I project fear based "what about me" decisions on others.. many times God will move me in a direction.. and I can think are you kidding me ?

but I can't see the end from the beginning and I will end up getting with the program and find myself getting though and thinking whoa, God you are good..

one thing comes to mind (no attacks on personalities please) but I remember Joyce Myers talking about (Her words) I was so screwed up, I thought my Husband Dave was out of his mind for being interested in me, and She said.. yeah at first it was rough.. but look at where The Father has brought us... Whoa.. and that's what she was like.. whoa.. and what or where would things be if Dave didn't heed/trust the leading of God ? what if He just looked at the natural ? mmmh ?

..and that's why I'm trying to give up on my own understanding and being patient to wait on Him... He can see ahead of me.. plus I won't drive myself nuts anymore ;)


Sorry, I am having a hard time following this and I have read this several times over. It sounds to me your abdicating that I just leave this all up to God, and I am now at this point in my life mostly because I am tired of the kind of guy that reads my bios on dating sites and seems to think I am stupid and desperate enough to succumb to their scams. I haven't had a single serious christian man interested in me out side of sitting really close to me several weekends in a row at church and then all of the sudden stop or go out of his way to avoid me. I am not a weirdo so unless God is telling these men NO loud and clear I am absolutely mystified as to what I am doing that stops them from approaching me unless it is something on their shopping list I didn't measure up to. But above and beyond this I have gotten to the point where I feel God is wanting some one on one time with me to train me in somethings and the timing is wrong for dating so why keep putting myself out there if the timing is wrong. KWIM? I am not a gluten for punishment and I don't need to open doors for the enemy to distract me from what God wants to teach me right now. I agree God knows best and will give me the best and I am now at a point in my walk where if being single for the rest of my life is what God wants because he knows that is how I will be happiest then I am okay with this. He will then take the desire for a man away eventually. If he doesn't then I have hope at some point in time he will bring the right man my way, but that doesn't mean I will check my brain at the door and jump at the first man that finally shows interest in me thinking this must be God's will finally. I do also have a time limit. If I get to retirement age and there still is no one then I don't care if there is someone out there for me, I am not about to marry anyone at this point. It's pointless. I am to old to give him children. My life is complete and it will stay that way


WHOA.. to be direct.. this is way too much control for me, and I confess I've been a control freak in the past.. and it was a most disturbing place to be, puppeted by fear and selfish desire along with the fear based and assumed might be reactions of others... now I'm not saying you're a control freak but the reactions and ideals that your expressing sound a lot like places I've been in my own self centeredness and it was only relieved by surrender and acceptance of Gods grace and love, where a trust and rest resulted.., now that's my experience.. take what you want and leave the rest.. but right now I speak freedom over you Sister be released and be blessed. as you trust wholly on Him.



John_O -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/16/2009 10:53:08 AM)

After just skimming the thread I've got a few points to make.

I.
My order would be:
1. Dating
2. Dating + friendship
3. Dating + Friendship + engagment
4. Dating + friendship + marriage
5. Dating + friendship + marriage +kids
6. Dating + friednship + marriage

Notice the recurring theme?

Your spouse is the single most important totally human being in your life. They will remain with you after the kids are gone, after the parents are dead. They alone will stick with you through it all. (Or at least that's how God designed it. And when we work it according to His plan life is wonderful)

Guys, when she says "I do" that is just the begiining of dating her. Wooing your wife should be a lifelong passion for you. Remember that after the kids are gone you still need to live with her. If you build your marriage strong and constantly maintain it (by wooing her) then empty nest syndrome really means "Yahoo!! I get her to myself again!!!"




II.
Friendships ALWAYS change with chnaging life circumstances. I do not belive it is healthy for married people to be hanging around exclusively with single people. In the example given of a newly married woman losing her single friends, why wouldn't that happen? Her life has diverged from theirs. She is now interested in building a good strong marriage with her husband and they are still interested in going out and partying (or at least going out and looking for men who could possibly be their future husbands). Friendships are for a season. Her "single season" is over.

A woman's best friend should be her husband. His best friend should be his wife. True every now and then she needs to go out with the (married) girls and he needs to go out with the (married) guys and do girl and guy stuff respectively. But for the most part their time is spent in one another's company. They need to cultivate couple friends.

I personally believe that the stay-at-home-wife has the absolute best life. She gets her work done in the first hour or so of the day and the rest of the day is hers to socialize or whatever until her best friend gets home.


III.
The woman moving. This has to be on a case by case basis. Normally the man will have a more secure (and financially lucrative) job. In some cases famaily matters will drive it. For example, I cannot move. My career is somewhat protable but my family situation forbids me from relocating.

IV.
Dating breaking hearts. The purpose of dating is to get to know the person so that you can see if you are a good fit. It is indeed "shopping for a mate". If you are routinely getting your heart broken then you are investing your heart way way too early in the process.

V.
What about me decisions. Every initial dating decision is "what about me" It's only as we move into the dating+friendship stage that the concept of what's best for the couple and our partner in it comes to the fore. First we need to figure out that the other person is worth sacrificing for before we can start sacrificing for them.


VI.
Guys being close but not talking to you in church. Is your personna welcoming to them? Do you smile at people and talk to others? Or do you place impenetrable walls of silence around your self that scream out "Leave me alone" to all who come near?

Guys will take the risk and ask, but if all the signals they are getting are "NO WAY!" before they even get to know your name, well lets just say that we are suckers for punishment be most of us are not that stupid.

VII.
Choosing a church. The man is the spiritual head of the family. The second most important duty he has to God is to provide for the well being of his wife. If he is not taking into account her ideas and feelings on where thye worship (or on just about anything else they may be doing) then he is likely failing in his role as husband and protector to her. He bears the consequences of any bad decisions. To counter that God has given him a counsellor called his wife. There is safety in a multitude of counselors and he had better listen to her counsel.



tz3 -> RE: Let's be friends and courtship (11/16/2009 8:14:07 PM)

Thank you John for your post. As usually you are spot on you just say things different from me but it is always a refreshing drink of water when you post things we are in agreement on. I need to learn to keep things more general because some people read to much into my posts and jump to conclusions that are not true about me.

And, perhaps I have had an invisible shield around me because I have been very hurt and just not sure who to trust. I am starting to come out of it but I don't know if I will ever be the same. I just wish someone would see past it and love me for who I am.


quote:

ORIGINAL: John_O

After just skimming the thread I've got a few points to make.

I.
My order would be:
1. Dating
2. Dating + friendship
3. Dating + Friendship + engagment
4. Dating + friendship + marriage
5. Dating + friendship + marriage +kids
6. Dating + friednship + marriage

Notice the recurring theme?

Your spouse is the single most important totally human being in your life. They will remain with you after the kids are gone, after the parents are dead. They alone will stick with you through it all. (Or at least that's how God designed it. And when we work it according to His plan life is wonderful)

Guys, when she says "I do" that is just the begiining of dating her. Wooing your wife should be a lifelong passion for you. Remember that after the kids are gone you still need to live with her. If you build your marriage strong and constantly maintain it (by wooing her) then empty nest syndrome really means "Yahoo!! I get her to myself again!!!"




II.
Friendships ALWAYS change with chnaging life circumstances. I do not belive it is healthy for married people to be hanging around exclusively with single people. In the example given of a newly married woman losing her single friends, why wouldn't that happen? Her life has diverged from theirs. She is now interested in building a good strong marriage with her husband and they are still interested in going out and partying (or at least going out and looking for men who could possibly be their future husbands). Friendships are for a season. Her "single season" is over.

A woman's best friend should be her husband. His best friend should be his wife. True every now and then she needs to go out with the (married) girls and he needs to go out with the (married) guys and do girl and guy stuff respectively. But for the most part their time is spent in one another's company. They need to cultivate couple friends.

I personally believe that the stay-at-home-wife has the absolute best life. She gets her work done in the first hour or so of the day and the rest of the day is hers to socialize or whatever until her best friend gets home.


III.
The woman moving. This has to be on a case by case basis. Normally the man will have a more secure (and financially lucrative) job. In some cases famaily matters will drive it. For example, I cannot move. My career is somewhat protable but my family situation forbids me from relocating.

IV.
Dating breaking hearts. The purpose of dating is to get to know the person so that you can see if you are a good fit. It is indeed "shopping for a mate". If you are routinely getting your heart broken then you are investing your heart way way too early in the process.

V.
What about me decisions. Every initial dating decision is "what about me" It's only as we move into the dating+friendship stage that the concept of what's best for the couple and our partner in it comes to the fore. First we need to figure out that the other person is worth sacrificing for before we can start sacrificing for them.


VI.
Guys being close but not talking to you in church. Is your personna welcoming to them? Do you smile at people and talk to others? Or do you place impenetrable walls of silence around your self that scream out "Leave me alone" to all who come near?

Guys will take the risk and ask, but if all the signals they are getting are "NO WAY!" before they even get to know your name, well lets just say that we are suckers for punishment be most of us are not that stupid.

VII.
Choosing a church. The man is the spiritual head of the family. The second most important duty he has to God is to provide for the well being of his wife. If he is not taking into account her ideas and feelings on where thye worship (or on just about anything else they may be doing) then he is likely failing in his role as husband and protector to her. He bears the consequences of any bad decisions. To counter that God has given him a counsellor called his wife. There is safety in a multitude of counselors and he had better listen to her counsel.



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