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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 1:17:22 PM
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Corne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
We are to fix our eyes on Jesus (12:2) and live lives of continual gratitude (a sacrifice of praise to God)(13:15) for ALL that Jesus IS for us.
And while I enjoy discussing the things of God such as this thread is doing, to emphasize 'our' doing (anything including the emphasis on temple worship) is to return to bondage. It was for freedom that Christ set us free (Gal 5:1)!
Yes, the picture of the ark, the mercy set, the cherubim, and the place of meeting between God and man is wonderful. And the various practices within the temple and the worship that took place are wonderful in that God is teaching and leading us to Himself. And that's why I've enjoyed this discussion.
But to stop with the 'objects' is to stop short. No, we must be led on to the person of Jesus Who makes all the objects pale in comparison. He is the altogether lovely One and the One we worship and adore.
The temple worship and the rending of the veil lead us to Jesus and His sufficiency. . . for me and for all mankind who receive Him.
The heart of the matter. The veil rending was not a shift in a symbol it was an earth shattering shift in our relationship to God.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 2:24:13 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 3086
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
You have locked in to the idea that I am trying to stir something up.
You have said many times about practices that that it is God's way, and that He desires those practices but they are not conditional for salvation. That is all I'm referring to. I was just trying to clarify my *not-hoping-to-jump-out-of the-bushes* motives. You didn't get it. OY.
As for this discussion, are we supposed to participate only if we completely agree?
I am not saying that everyone has to agree regarding what Adonai's ways are. The reason I have "locked in on" the possability that things could get stirred up is because this is how threads get shut down. The discussion of whether or not certain things mentioned in the Tanach should or should not be practiced today is not permitted outside of the Torah thread. Therefore, I have made it clear that we should not go into the specifics of what should or should not be done in that regard. To paraphrase Paul, if anyone wants to be contentious about this, I personally will not abide discussing specifice practices in this thread. If the mods will permit it, so be it. But, if this thread is shut down because some wish to get into discussions of specific practice, let it be known here and now that the discussion of specific practices is not my intent in this thread.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/9/2009 2:31:31 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 2:32:35 PM
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LBolt
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I believe this thread was a spin-off of why "MJ's" was hypocritical or what was wrong with "MJ's" so Bluethread started this thread in regards to the rending of the veil in the Temple, what did this symbolize...
There is a biased of sorts stemming from a faculty premise that "MJ's" are walking in Torah and therefore under bondage, legalism that Christ came to set us free from the very Torah He authored and inspired so the the bulk of the arguments is that veil rending is a freedom from Temple worship system. I would argue, have argued with supporting Scripture that it has always been about the heart. The atonement was always in anticipation of what was to take place at calvary. That God always was more concerned with the heart of His people than with the 'externals' of the ceremonies. The real matter at heart in this discussion is that Christianity does not want to obey to obey God's teachings and instructions such as Sabbath et al and when those of us teach that we should obey His word it's veiwed as legalism, bondage, imposing ceremonial rules...this is, IMO at the heart of the discussion.
Which is why nobody will cede to what is being presented by BT in this thread. This is the heart of the matter. All of Scripture should lead us to Jesus and His sufficiency. The real question, which takes us back to the law thread does the 10 Commandments apply to us today?
I'm going to look into if this veil was indeed the Holy of Holies or if this was the set apart place. How did they know that the veil in the Holy of Holies was tore if that was in the third layer or 7 level in the Temple where only the priest/Saduccess had access? The layout was:
1. The court of the Gentiles (designated because gentiles were not allowed to go further).
2. The court of the Women (designated because women were not allowed to go further).
3. The court of the Israel
4. The Altar of Sacrifice
5. The court of the priests
6. The Holy Place
7. The Holy of Holies
The rabbi's make mention of 2 veils in the Temple. I don't mean to beat a dead horse but can we examine this a little further. In Hebrews what appears to be thought of as Covenant or Torah is in reality the cleansing or renewing of the priesthood. Hebrews 8:13 appears to speaking of the priesthood as becoming obsolete and 'near to disappear' because the Temple was not destroyed until AD 70.
The translators added the word 'covenant' but is that to be understood?
Could Heb 10:19 be understood as being the holy place because Jesus is the High Priest and He has access to the Holies of Holy or should this be understood as when we put on Christ we have access. This is for dialogue purposes.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 2:53:18 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1773
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I believe this thread was a spin-off of why "MJ's" was hypocritical or what was wrong with "MJ's" so Bluethread started this thread in regards to the rending of the veil in the Temple, what did this symbolize...
There is a biased of sorts stemming from a faculty premise that "MJ's" are walking in Torah and therefore under bondage, legalism that Christ came to set us free from the very Torah He authored and inspired so the the bulk of the arguments is that veil rending is a freedom from Temple worship system. I would argue, have argued with supporting Scripture that it has always been about the heart. The atonement was always in anticipation of what was to take place at calvary. That God always was more concerned with the heart of His people than with the 'externals' of the ceremonies. The real matter at heart in this discussion is that Christianity does not want to obey to obey God's teachings and instructions such as Sabbath et al and when those of us teach that we should obey His word it's veiwed as legalism, bondage, imposing ceremonial rules...this is, IMO at the heart of the discussion.
Which is why nobody will cede to what is being presented by BT in this thread. This is the heart of the matter. All of Scripture should lead us to Jesus and His sufficiency. The real question, which takes us back to the law thread does the 10 Commandments apply to us today?
I'm going to look into if this veil was indeed the Holy of Holies or if this was the set apart place. How did they know that the veil in the Holy of Holies was tore if that was in the third layer or 7 level in the Temple where only the priest/Saduccess had access? The layout was:
1. The court of the Gentiles (designated because gentiles were not allowed to go further).
2. The court of the Women (designated because women were not allowed to go further).
3. The court of the Israel
4. The Altar of Sacrifice
5. The court of the priests
6. The Holy Place
7. The Holy of Holies
The rabbi's make mention of 2 veils in the Temple. I don't mean to beat a dead horse but can we examine this a little further. In Hebrews what appears to be thought of as Covenant or Torah is in reality the cleansing or renewing of the priesthood. Hebrews 8:13 appears to speaking of the priesthood as becoming obsolete and 'near to disappear' because the Temple was not destroyed until AD 70.
The translators added the word 'covenant' but is that to be understood?
Could Heb 10:19 be understood as being the holy place because Jesus is the High Priest and He has access to the Holies of Holy or should this be understood as when we put on Christ we have access. This is for dialogue purposes.
Lbolt you just effectively accused and brought controversy into the thread.
I'm not so sure the atonement of Christ always being anticipated...by the worshipers. God laid it out that way, but the people were not waiting for the great permanent sacrifice of a messiah. The law that led to Christ, all of the types and shadows yet they recognized Him not.The disciples didn't even fully comprehend the life laying down. This was not their concept of how the Messiah would save.
"It was always about the heart." And the heart always needed the permanent sacrifice to be right.
Jesus didn't need access, He is our access.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 2:57:14 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1773
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
But, if this thread is shut down because some wish to get into discussions of specific practice, let it be known here and now that the discussion of specific practices is not my intent in this thread.
I understand the one stop law thread issue. I have been sticking to the veil and the protocol relating to the temple and approaching God, before and after the rending. The meaning of what changes in our approach to the throne of God AFTER that.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 4:55:54 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 3086
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
But, if this thread is shut down because some wish to get into discussions of specific practice, let it be known here and now that the discussion of specific practices is not my intent in this thread.
I understand the one stop law thread issue. I have been sticking to the veil and the protocol relating to the temple and approaching God, before and after the rending. The meaning of what changes in our approach to the throne of God AFTER that.
Please do not be disingenious. The following from post #96 says that this thread is about "THE way God wants us all to practice" and that is patiently false. Excuse me for being direct. I let this pass before because I had hoped that I could make my point without pointing it out.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
Actually at least in these threads the debate if you will, is not about the acceptability of practicing these things if one desires, but about the doctrine that says this is THE way God wants us all to practice and those that don't, bless their hearts, will make it to heaven by grace anyway.
Now, if you agree that this is not the intention of this thread and are willing to avoid pressing the issue regarding particular practices, we can move on with discussing whether or not the rent veil translates into a negation of all of the symbolism in the temple and to what degree.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/9/2009 5:04:30 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 5:13:21 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 3086
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
The sacrificial sytem of the temple was brought to an abrupt halt when the Lamb of God was sacrificed. The Lamb of God was sacrificed and His offering was able to cleanse much more. It reminds me of Paul's discussion in Romans 5 comparing Adam's sin with the free gift of grace. To stay focused on Adam and what the Law did is to miss the much more of the grace of God. And while sin reigned in death, grace reigns through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I was distracted with the need to keep this thread on topic.
The problem with that is how does the rent veil, in and of itself, prove that? Adam actually did bring sin into the world. The cloth between the Holy Place and The Holy of Holies did nothing in and of itself except keep the physical ark out of sight. It is the symbolism that gave and gives it meaning. With Adam and Yeshua we are talking about a comparison of two actual actions taken by two actual men that resulted in two actual effects.
It will take more time than I have now to respond to your analysis of various passages in hebrews, in post #99, but I assure you I will respond.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/9/2009 5:21:30 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 5:34:58 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1773
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
But, if this thread is shut down because some wish to get into discussions of specific practice, let it be known here and now that the discussion of specific practices is not my intent in this thread.
I understand the one stop law thread issue. I have been sticking to the veil and the protocol relating to the temple and approaching God, before and after the rending. The meaning of what changes in our approach to the throne of God AFTER that.
Please do not be disingenious. The following from post #96 says that this thread is about "THE way God wants us all to practice" and that is patiently false. Excuse me for being direct. I let this pass before because I had hoped that I could make my point without pointing it out.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
Actually at least in these threads the debate if you will, is not about the acceptability of practicing these things if one desires, but about the doctrine that says this is THE way God wants us all to practice and those that don't, bless their hearts, will make it to heaven by grace anyway.
Now, if you agree that this is not the intention of this thread and are willing to avoid pressing the issue regarding particular practices, we can move on with discussing whether or not the rent veil translates into a negation of all of the symbolism in the temple and to what degree.
BT, I'm confused. (I'm not sure what you're getting at--what practices have I been addressing in this thread?)
You're confused (you seem to be reading into things--read what you just quoted of me...slowly. my points were these: a. {all of}THESE threads about law, messianic doctrine. b. the debate is not about may things be practiced but about MUST they be practiced. I made that statement because you complained that some say you SHOULDN'T be practicing as you do. ...BUT practicing is not specific to this thread. This thread has not been addressing messianic practices of today.)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 1:49:08 AM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 638
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
There is a biased of sorts stemming from a faculty premise that "MJ's" are walking in Torah and therefore under bondage, legalism that Christ came to set us free from the very Torah He authored and inspired so the the bulk of the arguments is that veil rending is a freedom from Temple worship system.
As you say, God authored and inspired a law that placed a curtain between us and his grace. Then, by that same authority, God removed the restriction of that curtain. How is it a faulty premise to consider people who continue to exalt a system that limited our access to God to be in some form of bondage to the old rules of separation from God and our old relationship to God? How does insisting on the exaltation and relevance of a literal Temple system that held us at a distance from God not leave a person open to the accusation of still being bound to that system? Especially in light of plain scripture that says that system is now inapplicable (aka, obsolete, old, etc.). This does not mean categorically that all who do that are in bondage. What it does mean is it's not inappropriate or faulty to suspect people who do that may be in some form of bondage.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I would argue, have argued with supporting Scripture that it has always been about the heart.
No, this is not the central issue of the new entitlements in the New Covenant and what we're talking about here. Your argument ignores plain teaching in the Bible about an end to laws that dictated and enforced our separation from God that in and of themselves did not come about because our hearts were changed. Did a changed heart entitle an old covenant saint to waltz into the H of H's on any day of the year and proclaim that he could do that because it's all about the heart?
It is not a change of heart that removes the literal restrictions of the law. It was the purposeful work of God to provide a new way to the mercy seat that removed those restrictions, and which also gave us new hearts. We don't have to submit to Temple restrictions anymore, not because our hearts are now different, but because God has provided a new and better way to the throne of grace (remember, not talking about one's worship preferences here).
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 2:24:02 AM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 638
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
The atonement was always in anticipation of what was to take place at calvary. That God always was more concerned with the heart of His people than with the 'externals' of the ceremonies.
Then explain why Nadab, Abihu, and Uzzah were mercilessly struck dead for their offenses against official old covenant worship protocol. I understand perfectly why it's important for MJ belief to say it's always been about the heart, which just wasn't true all by itself during the time of binding Temple law. The three people I pointed out are proof of that.
Surely God has always been more concerned about the heart, but this did not negate the binding requirements of the Temple law. Especially when you consider they did not know what their Temple worship was pointing to. If they did have the knowledge of what it pointed to like we have now and could truly understand the reality behind the symbolism they might have a legitimate excuse for defying binding law. But as it is, it would have been inexcusable for an OT person to willfully violate Temple protocol without some compelling circumstance to do so (like when David ate the showbread, or God excused the uncleanness of the Israelites so they could participate in the Passover).
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
The real matter at heart in this discussion is that Christianity does not want to obey to obey God's teachings and instructions such as Sabbath et al and when those of us teach that we should obey His word it's veiwed as legalism, bondage, imposing ceremonial rules...this is, IMO at the heart of the discussion. Which is why nobody will cede to what is being presented by BT in this thread.
Okay, fair enough. You've shared your thoughts and suspicions about an underlying agenda in the mainline church and how it leads them to resist MJ doctrine, and I'm going to share my thoughts and suspicions about MJ and why they resist the teaching of the mainline church about the law of the Temple being made obsolete and useless through the death of Christ (as symbolized in the rending of the veil). I respect your right to share, so please respect mine:
In regard to this matter I've been addressing, it's important to fundamental MJ doctrine to believe that a person could willfully violate Temple law under the old covenant (in the name of a changed heart) because, as they say, it's the reality of Christ behind the scenes that it's all about anyway. They try to argue that the Temple requirements weren't really that binding in an effort to diminish the stark reality taught in the Bible that the law they say cannot change has indeed changed in regard to Temple worship (IOW, the 'changes' we see today aren't really changes at all).
MJ can't allow the thought of a changing law, because, for those who don't know this, MJ goes to great lengths to preserve an 'unchanging law' doctrine to defend the basic beliefs of MJ. IOW, they have to develop an understanding of the torn curtain that doesn't really represent a change in Temple law because it breaks the ground out from other things they defend. It's another example of MJ interpreting scripture through the lens of a predetermined conviction to preserve the practices of MJ.
I personally find that especially disturbing about MJ--resisting, even changing plain Biblical truth about one thing in order to defend beliefs about other things. In the case of the curtain, if they admit a torn curtain represents a change in law it leaves them wide open to debate on other matters they defend. I'm only pointing this out for the sake of this matter about the curtain, not for the sake of debating other things they believe. I want people to understand there is a reason why MJ resists plain Biblical teaching about the torn curtain being representive of an obsolete Temple system and the law (not just the priesthood) that governed that system.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 3:13:20 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 3086
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
And what is eternal life? And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent. John 17:3 This is the very purpose of God for us, to know Him.
Jesus is the radiance of His (God's) glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. Hebrews 1:3 God chose to reveal Himself to us in these last days through His Son, Jesus.
For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? Hebrews 2:1-3
But we do see Him . . . Hebrews 2:9 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession. Hebrews 3:1
Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. Hebrews 4:1 There remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience. Hebrews 4:9-11
And (Jesus) having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek. Concerning him, we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. . . Hebrews 5:9-11 Therefore, let us press on to maturity Hebrews 6:1
For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever. Hebrews 7:28 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:11-12
For the Law since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near. Hebrews 10:1 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4
And that takes us to the wonderful reality of the new and living way of access to the holy place, Jesus. The writer of Hebrews stresses the confidence we now have. . . let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith(22), let us hold fast the confession of our hope (23).
Up to this point I see no contradiction with exception that you appear to be aluding to the possibility that one might see the representation as more important than what it represents. I would agree that is idolatry and one of the reasons why the temple was destroyed. It ceased being a representation of Adonai's Kingdom and became to those who controlled it's activities an end unto itself. Also, since the followers of Yeshua were increasingly banned from the synagogues, they no doubt were being restrained from access to the temple. This latter would also be blasphemy.
quote:
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins (26). I would contend that sinning willfully is the sin of unbelief which kept the Israelites from entering His rest.
We are to believe fully and completely in the work Christ has accomplished for us through His sacrificial death at Calvary and the life He now lives for us. Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward(35).
This seems to imply that looking to the temple as symbolic of Adonai's Kingdom is somehow sinful. How can this be?
quote:
The tenth chapter of Hebrews which describes the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice and the new and living way of entrance to God as well as the warning of not believing His having done ALL for us, the work being completed, is followed by chapter eleven which gives example after example of the faithful who believed.
We are to fix our eyes on Jesus (12:2) and live lives of continual gratitude (a sacrifice of praise to God)(13:15) for ALL that Jesus IS for us.
Yes, we are shown that salvation is not by works, even the works of the temple. However, Paul tells us we have been created for good works which Adonai prepared for us beforehand. Since, when seen properly, the temple and it's practices speak of Yeshua's place in Adonai's Kingdom and our relationship with him, how is looking at the symbolism of the temple not fixing our gaze on Him?
quote:
And while I enjoy discussing the things of God such as this thread is doing, to emphasize 'our' doing (anything including the emphasis on temple worship) is to return to bondage. It was for freedom that Christ set us free (Gal 5:1)!
This is getting into the area of what one is to do, which is beyond the scope of this thread. I can see how one would say, as did those at Shavuot said to Peter, 'What shall we do." However, given the constraints of this forum such discussions must needs take place in another thread.
quote:
Yes, the picture of the ark, the mercy set, the cherubim, and the place of meeting between God and man is wonderful. And the various practices within the temple and the worship that took place are wonderful in that God is teaching and leading us to Himself. And that's why I've enjoyed this discussion.
But to stop with the 'objects' is to stop short. No, we must be led on to the person of Jesus Who makes all the objects pale in comparison. He is the altogether lovely One and the One we worship and adore.
The temple worship and the rending of the veil lead us to Jesus and His sufficiency. . . for me and for all mankind who receive Him.
That is what the writer of Hebrews wanted us to know. The verse you began with showed us the insufficiency of the blood of bulls and goats. It led us to the sufficiency of Jesus' blood. He is sufficient. That is the journey I have been on this weekend as I've pondered this thread.
So great a salvation is found in Jesus. Hallelujah!\o/\o/\o/
That is good. So, why end the journey? Why not return to it again from time to time to reinforce the nature of Adonai's Kingdom and in other conversations in other venues discuss how it applies to each of our lives? To get back to the beginning of the thread, why does the rending of the veil preclude the examination of these things that you have found so helpful?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/10/2009 3:25:42 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 9:34:47 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 7756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, why end the journey? Why not return to it again from time to time to reinforce the nature of Adonai's Kingdom and in other conversations in other venues discuss how it applies to each of our lives.
Returning to the old promises, symbols, mysticism and not walking in the truth, freedom, and joy of the present is akin going on a Carribean vacation, staying in the hotel room and oogling at the brochure instead of going outside and walking in the truth.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 9:49:09 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 720
Joined: 11/30/2007
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Chainsaw,
Is the God of the 'OT' different from the God of the 'NT?"
Well explain to me why Anainas and Sapphira was struck dead when they lied to Peter regarding the selling of their property and the distribution of the funds?
Then explain I Corinthian 11:17-32 more precisely verses 27, 30-32. Why did God judge people with weakness, sickness and death?
Then explain Exodus 34:6-9 and I Samuel 16:7. Then if you will, expound on Deut 5:29 after this explain Psalms 51. Then expound on Isaiah 38:1-6. Then tell me why did Noah find grace in God's eyes? Why did Jeremiah write in Lamentations 3:22-23, 'It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness?' Then expound on the verse 32.
Break down Psalms 25:6-7, 10-11.
The reason for Nadab, Abihu death is the fact that they rebelled against God's instruction as priests and they served as examples to a young nation that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is to be revered and obeyed. That generation was judged as a whole because of their stubbornness of heart and unwillingliness to trust God by taking Him at His word. See Deut. 32:20.
Psalms 19:9 tell us that His 'judgements are true and righteous', who are we finite mortal to question the Almighty? These questions asked stems from a dispensationalized compartmentalized theology we have erected in order to explain the dealings of a holy God with mankind. It colored with the paint stroke of Bishop Marcion's gnostic beliefs. However, that mindset was already prevalent in and before His day.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 9:50:41 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 720
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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Chainsaw,
Is the God of the 'OT' different from the God of the 'NT?"
Well explain to me why Anainas and Sapphira was struck dead when they lied to Peter (really the Holy Ghost) regarding the selling of their property and the distribution of the funds?
Then explain I Corinthian 11:17-32 more precisely verses 27, 30-32. Why did God judge people with weakness, sickness and death?
Then explain Exodus 34:6-9 and I Samuel 16:7. Then if you will, expound on Deut 5:29 after this explain Psalms 51. Then expound on Isaiah 38:1-6. Then tell me why did Noah find grace in God's eyes? Why did Jeremiah write in Lamentations 3:22-23, 'It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness?' Then expound on the verse 32.
Break down Psalms 25:6-7, 10-11.
The reason for Nadab, Abihu death is the fact that they rebelled against God's instruction as priests and they served as examples to a young nation that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is to be revered and obeyed. That generation was judged as a whole because of their stubbornness of heart and unwillingliness to trust God by taking Him at His word. See Deut. 32:20.
Psalms 19:9 tell us that His 'judgements are true and righteous', who are we finite mortal to question the Almighty? These questions asked stems from a dispensationalized compartmentalized theology we have erected in order to explain the dealings of a holy God with mankind. It colored with the paint stroke of Bishop Marcion's gnostic beliefs. However, that mindset was already prevalent in and before His day.
[/quote]
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 11:28:30 AM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 638
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Chainsaw,
Is the God of the 'OT' different from the God of the 'NT?"
Same God who does different things at different times.
Isaiah 43:
18 "Forget the former things;
do not dwell on the past.
19 See, I am doing a new thing!
Now it springs up; do you not perceive it?
I am making a way in the desert
and streams in the wasteland.
I'm not sharing this passage to debate the exact nature of what the old and new is that is being referred to. I'm simply showing you that God does indeed institute change that directs us away from former things, whatever those things might be. My Bible says so. Same God doing new things. This is hard for MJ to accept because it erodes one of the fundamental tenants upon which they build and defend their beliefs. To us the torn veil represents just another example of the same God who is now doing a new and different thing. MJ can't risk seeing it that way for fear of opening up other doctrines to valid scrutiny.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Well explain to me why Anainas and Sapphira was struck dead when they lied to Peter (really the Holy Ghost) regarding the selling of their property and the distribution of the funds?
Then explain I Corinthian 11:17-32 more precisely verses 27, 30-32. Why did God judge people with weakness, sickness and death?
These have nothing to do with violations to the old Temple system. Why do you think they are relevant to the defense of your argument that 'it never really was required to be conformed to the strict requirements of the Temple back then, so the relaxing of Temple law today really isn't a change of law at all'?
Would anyone drop dead for violations of OT worship protocol today? No. (Irregardless of heart condition, good or bad). That's what the Col. 2 passage is about that I shared. There is no more judgement connected with Temple matters like someone not in the line of Aaron waltzing through the curtain into the H of H's on the fourth of July with a chinese sparkler spewing smoke everywhere. The law governing those violations is no longer applicable because the old system was replaced with a new system. Those laws haven't been broken. They simply don't apply to the new Temple system we have now. Paul says the torn curtain is the symbol of its obsolesence.
As I shared before, what does it matter to think about the requirement to set the points on a car to 28 degrees of dwell when your car doesn't have points anymore?...expect to be thankful that you don't have to do that anymore every 6 months to keep your car running. (Do I need a car with points to appreciate that, or can I just remember how it used to be and be thankful?) A computer programmer has seen to it that that task gets done without my help, and in a much more perfect way (don't worry, Jesus doesn't work for GM, lol!). So it is with the requirements for Temple worship in the H of H's. It gets done in a new way that is far superior than the old way and requires no action on our part except to believe it works. A changed life is the result of that faith.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Then explain Exodus 34:6-9 and I Samuel 16:7. Then if you will, expound on Deut 5:29 after this explain Psalms 51. Then expound on Isaiah 38:1-6. Then tell me why did Noah find grace in God's eyes? Why did Jeremiah write in Lamentations 3:22-23, 'It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness?' Then expound on the verse 32.
Break down Psalms 25:6-7, 10-11.
...The reason for Nadab, Abihu death is the fact that they rebelled against God's instruction as priests and they served as examples to a young nation that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is to be revered and obeyed. That generation was judged as a whole because of their stubbornness of heart and unwillingliness to trust God by taking Him at His word. See Deut. 32:20.
Psalms 19:9 tell us that His 'judgements are true and righteous', who are we finite mortal to question the Almighty?
I want to make it clear to people reading this that this is being brought up because MJ sees all the arguments it has been taught to resist in everyone who debates them, even though those arguments are not being raised. I don't believe there is anyone here who doesn't recognize God's mercy in some measure in the OT.
The proper argument is the old covenant Temple requirements had death sentences connected with them despite any wonderful examples of God's mercy we do see in the OT. Those examples simply did not negate the binding law of God's condemnation for those who violated Temple protocol during the first covenant. But it's just not that way anymore. The law has become dead to us, and us to it in that regard having been nailed to the cross with Jesus. Hallelujah! This is a change of law that MJ cannot accept without putting some kind of spin on it to preserve other doctrine.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
These questions asked stems from a dispensationalized compartmentalized theology we have erected in order to explain the dealings of a holy God with mankind. It colored with the paint stroke of Bishop Marcion's gnostic beliefs. However, that mindset was already prevalent in and before His day.
You see, folks, somehow thinking the Temple is no longer relevant to New Covenant life is seen as dispensationalism by MJ. I personally do not subscribe to dispensational theology as it is understood in the church today. MJ sees a continuous thread of significant Temple worship right to the end of time and up to eternity. The rest of us see the end of the significance of the Temple requirements as signified in the rending of the veil, just as Hebrews teaches us. The absence of the Temple is seen by MJ as the unfortunate consequence of a disobedient people. The rest of us see it as the purposeful end of the old way and the institution of a new and far better way to approach God for mercy that strips the significance of the literal Temple altogether. Take your pick folks. Hebrews is far in favor of the latter. No doctrinal gymnastics required to understand that view from the scriptures. You don't have to make certain things 'go away' by understanding them differently than what is plainly spelled out. Obsolete means obsolete.
Remember, this is about the significance and relevance of the Temple as signified in the rending of the curtain, not a person's right and privelege to worship any way they want to even if it is according to that old system.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 11/10/2009 11:41:42 AM >
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 12:47:10 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 720
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The question was answered. It was probably due to drunkness while serving in their priestly service, we don't know exactly it says that "They offered up strange fire."
The Temple's destruction was prophesied by Daniel and Yeshua and it was due to sin.
Why did Paul continue to attend Shavuot (Pentecost), why did he participate in the Nazarite's vow in Acts?
You failed to answer the questions and instead use generalities.
I presented to you arguments showing that YHWH has judged people in the New Testament. What is you explanation for this?
You said "God's mercy to some measure..." What we have been contending is that God has, is and always shall be full of mercy, grace and truth. But this does not change His righteous character and His divine rulings. I think you are operating from a premise that the God of the 'NT' is different from the God of the 'OT' which is at the core mindset. YHWH always desired to dwell in the midst of His people and He is not confined to Temples made by man.
Your writings is that of a presecuting attorney who is slinging mud trying to make something stick and failing to objectively look at what has been presented. You can't adequately answer any question. Chapter 7 of Hebrews is dealing with the priesthood. It was growing old and about to pass away. At the time of the writing of Hebrews, there was a priests who still did priestly work in the Temple. This was a prophesy of the imminent destruction of the Temple and the altering/ cessation of the functions of the priest. The various ceremonial duties of the priesthood did nothing to reform that conscience (heart or mind) only a changed heart. Only the New Covenant which is 'Torah on the heart', forgiveness of sin can reform the person. No amount of sacrifice can do that. In verse 12, the Torah was adjusted with regards to the priestly functions, to accomodate a better, more complete priesthood and sacrifice. In Hebrew 7:12, the word changed means moved from one place to another. The order is Melchizedec which was before the Levitical. The righteous requirements of the Torah never changed
Dispensationalism and probably other man made theologies seeks to compartmentalize God's dealings with man into periods. Human Govt, innocence, promise, law, grace... Other seek to divide it into Adamic Covenant, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, New Covenant...what I'm saying is that God is the same, yesterday, today and forever more. I'm not speaking for all 'MJ's' as you so eloquently put it. I'm speaking from my own observations. Much like you don't speak for all Christians.
I think you may be reading into the rent veil more than is needed. Yeshua is the High Priest, we have access to the Father through the authority of Yeshua. He's the one who goes into the Holies of Holy and not we in and of ourselves. The verse in Hebrews 10:19, the word Holiest is the Strong's # 39 and it means 'holiest (of all), holy place, sanctuary.' As priest we can enter this place having our conscious purified by the blood of the Lamb, but it is the High Priest who takes our requests behind the veil to the Father. They earthly tabernacle is a figure of the heavenly order. Yeshua goes in on our behalf.
This is how I understand this.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 1:23:06 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 720
Joined: 11/30/2007
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I do not believe God placed a cloth to separate us from His grace nor did I imply this.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 1:56:18 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 638
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
The question was answered. It was probably due to drunkness while serving in their priestly service, we don't know exactly it says that "They offered up strange fire."
What about poor Uzzah? All indications are that his intentions were pure, if not holy, yet binding Temple law during that time sentenced him to death. The NT teaches us that would not happen today under any circumstances or condition of heart. But MJ cannot acknowledge this easily for fear of degrading their own defense of various MJ beliefs.
quote:
The Temple's destruction was prophesied by Daniel and Yeshua and it was due to sin.
True, but is it fair and honest to ignore what the Bible also says the disapperance of the Temple also represents? Sin is definately what nailed the law of the Temple to the cross along with Jesus. The destruction of the Temple is a very real and tangible illustration of the end of the old way and the beginning of the new. It wasn't just the matter of the consequences of sin.
quote:
Why did Paul continue to attend Shavuot (Pentecost), why did he participate in the Nazarite's vow in Acts?
I don't know why MJ understands the mainline church's argument as being all OT external worship came to a grinding halt with the resurrection of Christ. Hebrews itself describes it as a fading away, correct? Can you give us any Biblical evidence at all that suggests Paul's desire to be back at Jerusalem for Pentecost is a direct contradiction to the Hebrews teaching that the Temple lost it's significance with the resurrection of Christ and is not representative of some other mindset more in line with what we defend? The burden of proof is on you and your argument to provide that. Our evidence for our argument that his observance does not represent a belief in the continuing significance of the Temple is his own NT writings, especially the book of Hebrews (if he really wrote it).
And the Bible is clear that Paul participated in the vow at the urging of the ruling Jews in Jerusalem to placate angry Jews. Just an example of Paul being a Jew to the Jew, just as he was also a gentile to the gentiles for their sake. "All things to all men..." You know the passage. Hardly a defense for the continuing significance of the Temple system as in the old covenant.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 2:10:05 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 638
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
You failed to answer the questions and instead use generalities.
I presented to you arguments showing that YHWH has judged people in the New Testament. What is you explanation for this?
Who says God does not judge his people in the New Testament? What you can't provide is proof that he still does that in regard to Temple requirements with an example from NT times while the Temple was still present and in use. If you can, then we have not been set free from the legislated death penalty of the law and there is no cause for rejoicing in the (false) teaching of Paul that we have indeed been set free from the legislated restrictions and penalties of the law governing access to the throne of grace.
Are you prepared to defend the continuing significance of a system that severly limits people's access to God and puts people to death for violations of those restrictions? Only a lessening of the significance of the Temple can allow the freedom we now have from the lawful requirements and penalties connected with the Temple. This is the clear teaching of Hebrews. MJ attempts to minimize that drastic reduction in significance by cooking up this doctrine that says God really wasn't the meanie in the OT some make him out to be. He's not mean, he's just. Thankfully, Jesus appeared to mediate between us and that justice. That ministry only appeared in it's full effect and visibility with the death and resurrection of Christ. It's different now this side of the resurrection. MJ can't easily acknowledge that and make every attempt to prove it was the same then as it is now. Simply not true.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 2:16:57 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 638
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I do not believe God placed a cloth to separate us from His grace nor did I imply this.
I know that...all to well. The law tells us God placed a curtain between us and access to his mercy. I don't expect you to acknowledge that or even imply it. That's the problem with MJ.
What is all this excitement spoken about in the NT if God's grace was just as present and accessible then as it is now? Why did Christ die? What changed?
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 2:34:32 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 720
Joined: 11/30/2007
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I reread the Isaiah 43 verse and yes you are wise not to want to discuss the surrounding scriptures and the overall context of this verse. The new thing was not the doing away with Torah.
You say "In regards to Temple requirements..." there is no earthly Temple!!
What are you arguing about? Your arguments and insuations are are much ado about nothing.
Most of what Paul argued and contended with was the legalism and dogmas of his day that put people in bondage not God's word.
What I do find is interesting is that the Temple Institute is looking to build the altar on the part of the Temple mount that Israel possesses. This puts Daniel 9 into focus.
In Colossians 2:8
We see the phrase 'philosophy', 'vain deceit', 'the traditions of men' and the 'rudiments of the world.'
Now in verse 16, we see 'meats', 'drinks', 'holyday', 'new moon' and 'Sabbath.'
Verse 20-22 deals with the commandments of men...
Are you saying that the things mentioned in verse 16 at that time (and now) were man made commands? In other words, was Sabbath a man-made commandment? The feast days or holydays a man-made commandment? Was these vain deceit or lies? The dietary Laws in Leviticus, were these man-made laws?
Put another way Sabbath= man-made, nailed to the cross, vain deceit, tradition of men, philosophy...all the things described in verse 8.
holydays= man-made, vain deceit, tradition of men, nailed to the cross...
Is this how we are to understand this? We can take this to the law thread so not to violate Terms of Service.
How are we to understand Ezekiel's Temple? Is it 'spiritual' in your opinion or a literal one...both?
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 2:50:55 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 638
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
I reread the Isaiah 43 verse and yes you are wise not to want to discuss the surrounding scriptures and the overall context of this verse. The new thing was not the doing away with Torah.
I was not even implying that, but I'm sure you will ignore the point it does make that destroys fundamental MJ thought. God really does do different things at different times. He's not as unchanging as MJ insists as the defense for certain things they believe and practice.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 2:53:49 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 638
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
You say "In regards to Temple requirements..." there is no earthly Temple!!
What are you arguing about? Your arguments and insuations are are much ado about nothing.
This is funny because this is the exact thing I wanted to point out a day or two ago. It is MJ that needs to understand this stark reality, not us. And the reason it is that way. MJ is the much ado about nothing argument that has little to stand on. Hebrews uses the absence of the Temple as the visible evidence of the end of the old and the beginning of the new. Plain and simple.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/10/2009 3:02:06 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 638
Joined: 10/17/2009
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quote:
Most of what Paul argued and contended with was the legalism and dogmas of his day that put people in bondage not God's word.
Abrahamic/ Mosaic circumcision is not a legalistic dogma. It's a requirement of God, but one that is no longer required. What faithful, god fearing person in Abraham's family line would dare spurn the command to be circumcised and be put out of the blessing? Only in the revelation of the New can we now understand our legitimate freedom from once required lawful commandments.
I'm only bringing this up to demonstrate how the once binding requirement for a veil between the H of H's and the people of God could in no way be removed during that time, but can now be disregarded completely. This is exactly the evidence Paul presents to defend the end to the significance of the literal Temple and the law that governed it. This is truth that MJ can't easily acknowledge for fear of losing traction on other associated beliefs built on the unchanging God/ law doctrine.
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...all they were given was that pattern shown to Moses on the mountain.... 