Adult tantrums (Full Version)

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Smythe -> Adult tantrums (11/2/2009 11:34:29 AM)

My husband is guilty of throwing tantrums when he doesn't feel that things are going the way he prefers. He has acknowledged that this behavior is unacceptable many times and after making that statement, he says things like, "but you don't have to make me mad!". That makes me responsible for his outbursts, of course.
He uses a lot of profanity and banging on whatever is within his reach. I have even seen him jump up and down and pump his fists up and down with every jump. I bursted out laughing when I saw that because it was so hilarious seeing a grown person acting like that. I wasn't sure if he was really serious. He was serious, unfortunately. He told me he couldn't believe I laughed at him, as if the silly looking tantrum was normal for an adult.
I have no romantic relationship with him because of this lack of control. I find it to be very childish as if he is mentally retarded. That may be a very exaggerated view that only I see since I am living with it and feel I have no method for controlling it and no escape from it. I have tried to discuss divorce with him when he is calm and it only fires him up again. I have also discussed his finding help with his behavior and he always has a story about how he has already talked to pastors and counselors and how it doesn't help him.
I have gotten to the point of hating him and I don't like feeling that way. I have never hated anyone in my life. I honestly have no love for him and I don't know what to do any more. I have prayed and tried to just be patient and wait on God to show me how to solve this problem but this hateful feeling I have for him, I know, is really getting in the way of God helping me. What am I supposed to do? I feel embarrassed and stupid for tolerating this for so long.
Is this something that I will likely not find and answer to in a forum ? Maybe I just need some encouragement to keep trudging along until the time is right for this person to hear God speaking to him in a fashion that he can hear. I know God can do anything but when people have a free will, they don't have to hear God. I don't know what to think. I am so biased that I'm afraid that every thought I have is wrong.
If you can pray about this dilemma I will appreciate it more than you could know or I could express in words. Thank you



madlyrics -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/2/2009 11:54:20 AM)

I know from experience as long as we hold on and don't forgive God can not move and I know it is hard but we have to See I was having a problem with my husband and until I forgave him God could not work now this did not happen over night it took almost 6 months and i could not get through. One day I laid on the floor and cried out to God I said this is bigger than me please father do something all I kept hearing is forgive my response was I can't but his reply was I did for you. That did it I forgave my husband and even though it hurt God did move I started seeing changes he stopped blocking me out and we now have God believing marriage mentors to help us deal with things that may become a problem in our marriage. Satan wants you to give up on you marriage but God does not. This may not be what you want to hear but keep praying God does hear you and when you cry out really cry out He will step in



laura... -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/2/2009 12:01:42 PM)

It sounds like your husband has never learned how to deal with anger properly.

If his tantrums cause you to believe you are in danger of physical injury, then separation is in order until he learns to control that behavior.

If you don't think you are in any danger from his tantrums then I suggest you take some steps to help him learn some skills for managing anger. When he is calm arrange a time when you two can sit down and seriously discuss this problem. Don't just say, "we need to talk now." Literally set an appointment for the discussion. If you don't think he can handle such a discussion calmly, then you may need to arrange an appointment with a pastor or counselor to help moderate the discussion.

In that discussion I would make the following things clear:

* Tantrums are unacceptable in a two year old and a thousand times more unacceptable in an adult.

* When he has a tantrum you will leave the room or the house until he gets himself back under control. All discussion about whatever the issue was will end until he regains control of himself.

* He has to attend anger/conflict management counseling so that he can learn better ways to deal with conflict.

* If, after several months of anger/conflict management counseling, he continues to have tantrums, then he must get a mental health evaluation for a possible mental illness that is preventing him from controlling his outbursts.

As for your own feelings of hate for him, you need to confess those feeling to God and ask Him to help you to change your heart towards your husband. Perhaps it will help you if you begin to look at your husband's lack of self control as a challenge that you can come along side of him and help him to overcome.



trelawrence -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/2/2009 12:23:22 PM)

Tell him Jon Gosselin was recently referenced with having "mantrums" and has been the butt of scornful jokes since.

Seriously though, great advice you've been given. I'd lean towards the proactive, direct approach to dealing with this.



Smythe -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/2/2009 2:26:50 PM)

To the forgiveness aspect, I have forgiven him and that appears to give him the impression that the offense has been erased and now he's free to do it again. I have become very weary of enabling him. Sometimes I wonder what lesson I'm supposed to be learning. There are so many thoughts running through my head throughout the day and night, it's difficult to stop and take a breath and use logic and reason to separate the rational thoughts from the garbage.
He and his mother used to laugh about his temper like it was cute little baby behavior so he was raised to think that it was an interesting quality to have and be known by. By the time I experienced it, it was too late to escape.
When I have tried to walk away from him, he has chased me and grabbed me so I couldn't get away as he yells and spits in my face. I do feel that he has some type of mental deficiency that requires medication. He has even made comments to that effect but he doesn't want to go to a doctor and be labeled as a mental case and lose his job, as a result of getting help.
It would be wonderful if we could get injections of maturity where it is lacking in certain people. That would make it so easy to remedy these situations.



laura... -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/2/2009 2:32:10 PM)

quote:

When I have tried to walk away from him, he has chased me and grabbed me so I couldn't get away as he yells and spits in my face.


That behavior calls for a separation until he gets the help he needs and demonstrates that he is able to control his behavior in the future.



hnt -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/2/2009 2:36:06 PM)

quote:

When I have tried to walk away from him, he has chased me and grabbed me so I couldn't get away as he yells and spits in my face. I do feel that he has some type of mental deficiency that requires medication. He has even made comments to that effect but he doesn't want to go to a doctor and be labeled as a mental case and lose his job, as a result of getting help.


I can certainly understand your confusion and at times frustration.

If he will not allow for cooling off time when you walk away? It could be time for a brief separation until he decides he is serious about getting help. The chasing you down, and yelling and spitting in your face? That is a total loss of control, and he needs to learn to get a grip before he hurts someone.

If he refuses medicine then he needs to find help for change of habit patterns. What you speak of will get worse if he does NOT get control of it.

I'm sure you realize that he will hate and rage over either of these options, but he needs someone to put their foot down. It could literally ruin his life!



car2ner -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/2/2009 3:24:41 PM)

I had lived with tantrums from my ex. He used to say I made him loose his temper as if he couldn't help it. (absurd to think I would push his buttons on purpose). I asked him if he ever lost his temper with his boss. Of course the answer was no. So that proved that he could control it if he needed or wanted to. I eventually came to the conclusion that he didn't want forgiveness, what he wanted was to get away with it.



deermousie -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/2/2009 6:14:57 PM)

Welcome to the forum, Smythe! I'm glad you're here! [:)]

Madlyrics and Laura have given you excellent advice. It might not be what you thought you were looking for, but in the future you'll probably look back and see what these two sisters have told you was what you wound up needing to know anyway. Might as well grab and run with it now. [:)]

quote:

To the forgiveness aspect, I have forgiven him and that appears to give him the impression that the offense has been erased and now he's free to do it again.


We've been discussing the issue of forgiveness of abusers on another thread, and this very issue of people being forgiven and seeming to be excused of their sin is dealt with by this great concept: when you forgive a person, you take them off your hook and you hang them on God's hook, for Him to deal with.

God's ways are perfection and truth, and Jesus died because we were helpless in our immorality and lostness. Sin needs death to pay for the penalty. God only can forgive us because blood was shed. Your husband's forgivenness was not free, but cost God a lot. Now God calls him (and the rest of us) to His moral perfection. The Holy Spirit lives inside us to teach us how to live morally.

Your husband is refusing to live God's way. God tells husbands to love their wives and nourish them and lay down their lives for them (live self-sacrificially for the wife's benefit). A man who refuses God's grace will have to come face-to-face with God over it and his lack of living the way God died to pay so he could. This is NOT a free pass.

quote:

I have become very weary of enabling him. Sometimes I wonder what lesson I'm supposed to be learning. There are so many thoughts running through my head throughout the day and night, it's difficult to stop and take a breath and use logic and reason to separate the rational thoughts from the garbage.


This is a difficult time for you; no one will deny that. Lots of us have been down similar paths, and what they learned is on this thread. Please read them carefully, dear sister, and God comfort you.

quote:

He and his mother used to laugh about his temper like it was cute little baby behavior so he was raised to think that it was an interesting quality to have and be known by. By the time I experienced it, it was too late to escape.


I'm guessing here, but telling the truth will give lie to the "cute" of a ridiculous temper tantrum. "This temper tantrum is not an adult way to deal with anger." It could result in a case of "shoot the messenger" so don't do this if it puts you in danger.

quote:

When I have tried to walk away from him, he has chased me and grabbed me so I couldn't get away as he yells and spits in my face.


This is assault - call the police and press charges. Get a paper trail on his abuse and the courts will tell him the truth about his abuse if he won't listen to you. God's Word is the basis of our laws, and God invented them to protect the innocent from those who would hurt them. It's biblical to call the police. A judge will probably mandate anger management.

quote:

I do feel that he has some type of mental deficiency that requires medication. He has even made comments to that effect but he doesn't want to go to a doctor and be labeled as a mental case and lose his job, as a result of getting help.


So he'd rather be mentally ill around you than fix it and have a normal life and be better to you? What if he's incarcerated for mental illness when he knew and had refused to treat it? Much worse. He could get a new job - Lowe's is hiring right now. Not what he's used to making? Money is more important than loving his wife? You can downsize,but God will judge how he chooses to live his morals.

quote:


It would be wonderful if we could get injections of maturity where it is lacking in certain people. That would make it so easy to remedy these situations.


[:D]

Maybe it's more a moral issue than maturity? God created the universe to run on moral rails, and His biggest interaction with mankind was over sin, a moral issue.

Your best help right now is godly counseling; go talk to your pastor first. If he can't help, find a godly counselor (http://www.minirthclinic.com/ might be a source for a local recommendation).

You have a husband who isn't acting like God calls husbands to act and is potentially dangerous. Please start documenting his behavior with an eye to getting him some help (which may have to be against his will if it is putting you in danger) and you get some counseling. You're backed into a corner and need some godly counsel on your side to tell you what side is up.

God bless you, dear one. Lots of people have been through this kind of trial and come out well on the other side. Trust God to get you through it. And no situation lasts forever except heaven, so be comforted by that, and go do what you need to do. I'm praying for you tonight. (((HUgs)))



Smythe -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/2/2009 6:46:04 PM)

I can certainly agree that it is ruining his life. He feels very guilty and has learned that everyone looks down on him for not finding a solution to this when it seems so simple to just go to a professional and seek help. I think it is fear of the stigma that is put on people who are labeled "mental". He already has that label with my family and some of the jobs he has had but the thought of having a diagnosis and documentation thereof is a powerful blow that he feels he can't stand up to. All of that has a really detrimental effect on his self esteem and confidence but he says he has always been this way and so he doesn't know that life could be better or what "better" is.
He is able to put on a friendly, happy face when he goes to work, church or family gatherings and he talks nonstop about everything so that he appears to have no problems but as soon as he feels pressured by anything and it could be ANYTHING, he blows up as if somebody threw a match in a tank of gasoline.
He does tell me that he is able to control all of this at work and wherever he needs to control it but when he gets home I am the one who causes him to lose control because he has to deal with personal matters that he doesn't want to be reminded of and bills and car maintenance that he doesn't want to do. In other words, he saves it up until he gets home and unleashes it on me. I asked him why he thinks I should be treated in that way and he says he doesn't think I should receive that type of treatment but he can't help it. It's not rational at all so I don't know how to take it. I can only see it as malice and hostility which he'll deny but there is no other way to describe it.
I don't want to be an irresponsible person who ignores things because I don't want to bother with it but I feel that I am causing this person to not get the help he needs by making him feel that it is tolerable and there is no need to take it seriously unless it kills someone. Maybe I'm the person who is supposed to make things happen and I've been doing something wrong here. I'm afraid I am going to be judged for not making things right because he is not capable and I am the only person with any sanity so I'm responsible for this.



Mollymouser -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/2/2009 6:47:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laura...

quote:

When I have tried to walk away from him, he has chased me and grabbed me so I couldn't get away as he yells and spits in my face.


That behavior calls for a separation until he gets the help he needs and demonstrates that he is able to control his behavior in the future.


Agreed.



cachingweds -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/2/2009 7:09:23 PM)

Grabbing you and spitting in your face? This is beyond getting his own way. It is the beginning of abuse. You need to get away from him and do it quickly. Do not tell him where or when you are going. Abusers sometimes try to track and find their victims. Go to a friend's house, a women's shelter, or a hotel if you can afford one. If you have kids, get them out too. Then file for separation, and get yourself into some counseling to help you cope. If he cannot or will not get the help he so clearly needs. then you may have to do what many Christians will tell you never to do - file for divorce.



hnt -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/2/2009 7:37:43 PM)

quote:

He does tell me that he is able to control all of this at work and wherever he needs to control it but when he gets home I am the one who causes him to lose control because he has to deal with personal matters that he doesn't want to be reminded of and bills and car maintenance that he doesn't want to do. In other words, he saves it up until he gets home and unleashes it on me. I asked him why he thinks I should be treated in that way and he says he doesn't think I should receive that type of treatment but he can't help it. It's not rational at all so I don't know how to take it. I can only see it as malice and hostility which he'll deny but there is no other way to describe it.


In other words you are his whipping boy. How nice. [:'(]

The reason he does it at home is because people allow him to give away with it. There are no consequences. Think about it. There would be consequences at work, church, etc correct? He is making excuses, and if they don't make any rational sense to you? If you only see it as malice and hostility? He should be very concerned about that, and 'I can't help it!" is not good enough. He needs to find a healthy release, and you are NOT IT!

If he is not willing to do more than make excuses for himself - are you willing to protect yourself? The yelling and spitting is going to break your spirit, and your resolve. It has to be more than 'I can't help it'. If that is all he has to offer you only have two choices. Learn to live with it, or step up and say this is unacceptable and leave for a while.

Its sad when people will allow themselves to hit rock bottom before they even think of doing something NOT ONLY for themselves, but for the family that loves them. He can help it, and he can also find help for himself. If he puts any worth in his relationship he would be willing to do that. If he knows he can get away with excuses? Chances are good he will keep it up. He doesn't see the incentive. He needs help.

I will be praying for both of you.



Smythe -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/2/2009 8:21:32 PM)

Thanks for the insightful responses. I appreciate those who have gone through these difficult relationships and are willing to give advice.
I always feel that I have control of things but that is probably just niavete or denial. I do have help nearby if he gets violent.
What I am concerned about most right now is the fact that I feel so much hate for this person when I should be at least showing the love of God towards him.
The separation sounds like something that I will try along with some ultimatums. I need to try an appointment with a counselor also . Thank you all.



bolt. -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/2/2009 10:19:00 PM)

(1) You hate him because you feel contempt for him.

(2) You feel contempt for him because he expresses his anger physically, as children do.

(3) He expresses his anger that way because his primary influencers tolerate it.

To change that you have to climb back up the ladder. Do not tolerate it any more. Be a grown up yourself, do not laugh, mock, insult or anything else. Without a word turn your back on him, walk to a vehicle and drive away. 2 or 3 hours later call him back and ask if he is calm enough for your company. If you get a poor response take that as a 'no' hang up and wait another 2 or 3 hours (if it's daytime) or overnight if it's evening (stay at a motel; keep an overnight bag in the vehicle).

If he continues to be unpleasant, this may form the beginning of a short-term separation, where he would have to show good faith and some recovery before you share a home with him again.

You haven't mentioned children. If there are none, the plan works without a hitch. If there are, you will have to have their things on hand, and depending on ages, you might make them aware of the plan.

You probably won't have to do this often or for long. Once he knows you mean business, every time, he will either find self control or seek help. Then he will be the kind of man you can hold in good esteem and your love will be able to be recovered (probably involving couples' counselling).

(There is a chance of things going badly, him being unwilling, and this turning into a long term separation... but no matter how long you separate for, you are under no obligation to initiate divorce.)

How long ago was the grabbing and spitting incident? If it was recent, enact what I have said regarding it. If not, bear it in mind as a possible escalation point, but move forward rather than back.



Anon101 -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/3/2009 3:22:14 AM)

I totally know what you are dealing with! That is my husband's problem, too. His Mantrums would get so bad I would have to leave and go to my dad's when I was pregnant.

We found out he was chemically imbalanced. I think anyone who can't control their emotions to that degree that counseling doesn't help it is time for him to see a psychiatrist. Medication will help the rage and then the counseling will be more effective.

What helped me a bit, was to get out of the line of fire if the tantrum isn't directly aimed at you and try, for the sake of your own sanity until you decide what to do, find some humor in it. Because I've watched both my dad and husband have serious fights with appliances. lawn equipment, etc. I couldn't help but laugh at absurdity of it.



stateofgrace -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/3/2009 11:57:19 AM)

I think you've gotten some good feedback from others here. I want to caution you about using the term "mental deficiency" to describe someone who might have a mental illness or disorder. That term could be considered very disrespectful and would potentially discourage someone from getting needed help.



Smythe -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/3/2009 1:04:49 PM)

Bolt, for some reason, when I read your reply I felt peace.
I have tried to counter his rantings with logic and it's as if I'm throwing knives at him. If he see's anger or fear or any emotion on my face he becomes more hostile. I will have to block the hurtful words that are thrown at me and calmly walk away but I usually have to sit and listen to it until he finishes. I feel that I am allowing him to believe that he is winning something when I can see that he is losing more respect from me and from himself. I always feel driven to correct it but that never is effective.
We have separated a couple of times because of his lack of self control and he always goes to talk to the pastor and keeps himself under control for a while but he gets comfortable and lazy and starts the bad behavior all over again. When we discuss this problem, he talks about scripture and he knows all of them and how to interpret them, he just chooses not to practice them. I do my best to make him feel that I'm trying to help him but he treats me as if I'm the enemy and I am going to harm him in some way. It doesn't make sense to me and I've asked him about this way of thinking and he can't explain it. That makes this such a frustrating mess when he can't explain any of his own thoughts such as when he started feeling this way or who influenced him to think this way. His answer to all questions is "I don't know."
When I think about him going to a psychiatrist I fear that it would be such an arduous task to help him that it would take his whole paycheck every month to pay the bill. I don't know what value sanity has for him though and that is probably a mountain that we are going to climb.



Smythe -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/3/2009 1:26:14 PM)

stateofgrace, thank you for bringing that to my attention. It was a little leak of frustration that I should have been able to stop. I'm sorry for letting it show.
All of you have been very caring, thoughtful and wise in your replies. Thank you for your prayers in our behalf.



jaimestarcross -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/3/2009 5:49:14 PM)

I would still be out of the house if he'd spat in my face... or he would have to be out of the house.
We'd have to do a year of counseling- spiritual, anger management/conflict resolution... before attempting to get back together.



deermousie -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/3/2009 6:36:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smythe
When we discuss this problem, he talks about scripture and he knows all of them and how to interpret them, he just chooses not to practice them.


Ooh, I just found this verse, Smythe:

Deuteronomy 13:4
It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.

The context is not following a person who entices others to idolatry, but what is idolatry except following anything else but God? Including yourself? God says this is very serious; it was a capital offense in the Old Testament. It shows what God thinks about it, even now.



bolt. -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/3/2009 6:54:33 PM)

quote:

I have tried to counter his rantings with logic and it's as if I'm throwing knives at him. If he see's anger or fear or any emotion on my face he becomes more hostile. I will have to block the hurtful words that are thrown at me and calmly walk away but I usually have to sit and listen to it until he finishes. I feel that I am allowing him to believe that he is winning something when I can see that he is losing more respect from me and from himself. I always feel driven to correct it but that never is effective.

You are right. None of this is effective. It's time to use your feet instead of talk. Think of it as an enforced cooling-off period, for the purpose of limiting the damage he does to your marriage while he is out of control. He can figgure this out for himself (to see if he needs help and what kind) he just doesn't think he has to. But he does. Your feet tell him that like nothing else.

quote:

We have separated a couple of times because of his lack of self control and he always goes to talk to the pastor and keeps himself under control for a while but he gets comfortable and lazy and starts the bad behavior all over again. When we discuss this problem...

So, if/when he starts up again, he gets 15 seconds to catch himself, then you've got your shoes on and keys in hand. It doesn't have a chance to get worse. It gets better, or it doesn't.

You don't have to discuss the problem with him. It's his problem, and if he wants to live with his wife, he'll find a way to stop it. The more you act like you are on the fixing team, the more he can write it off as not his problem. You don't care why it happens or what it will take to stop it. You just want it done. The details are his.



Konstantinos -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/3/2009 9:06:54 PM)

wow. Throws tantrums at anything? I don't know what the rest have suggested. I suggest finding a way to show him tantrums are childish and won't help him achieve anything. Heck if it was up to me I'd put him in a cage and let him tantrum all he wants until he gives up. Sounds barbaric? Parents do the EXACT same thing to kids when they send them in their rooms and let them tantrum away. Considering he's acting childish too, I wouldn't find it too absurd. Granted I'm not suggesting you really do this. For one, he'll probably go to the police afterwards and you'll end up in jail and two, you can find other ways to let "life" and not words of wisdom, show him that tantrums don't help.

I'll only agree with seperation if his behavior is getting worse and worse. If he's been throwing tantrums but hasn't hurt you in all the years you've been together I wouldn't suggest you seperate.

As for hating him, its obvious what you should do.

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

This isn't to make you feel bad. To me it says that all other things for you to do are secondary. Your first priority should be to love him.



Smythe -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/4/2009 10:30:49 AM)

Wow to that one, Konstantinos. [;)]
Love him? That's my problem. In such a disfunctional atmosphere, I am having a difficult time finding a different way to look at him.
I, at one time when he was throwing a tantrum and came too close to my face, slapped him, thinking that he would snap out of it and the craziness escalated instead. I had to run and request the help of the police officers next door. They told me that he could have me arrested for assault but I couldn't charge him with anything. That was not the manner I wanted to be educated in. I felt sick and broken.
I do realize that I got myself into this and I'm the one who stays here in it voluntarily. I don't want to give up and I know I shouldn't hate this person. When I think about separating, it makes a lot of sense because I could then be out of the line of fire and not keep my defenses up most of the time that alter my thinking so much that I don't relax enough to let God in to help.



bolt. -> RE: Adult tantrums (11/4/2009 11:21:13 AM)

Before you separate, do try the 'walk away for a few hours and check back' plan. It might be that it will be enough. If not, at least you tried.

You are clearly not managing to be in the situation with his sinful outbursts well. It drives you to the edge, induces you to see him with contempt, and will continue to erode your marriage bond until there is nothing left. It is on you to do what you can to prevent that. And at this point, that means walking away, not waiting till you are riled enough to try tactics like slapping. Not waiting it out while your reactions grind your image of your spouse into the dirt. Those things are dangerous to the covenant that God values, and the people in it who He loves. Make another choice. Be prepared.

You don't need to put up with the outbursts of rage, and you don't need a plan to deal with them better, because you never intend to see more than 15 seconds of another one for the rest of your life. It's him that needs a plan to deal with them.

Also, you can 'charge him' with a named sin - 'outbursts of rage'. The forum for that is with your Church's leadership (if he goes to Church). Just because it's not against the law doesn't mean it's not immoral.



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