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RE: Christian Women in or our of touch - 11/5/2009 6:42:04 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Hee-hee! Way too cute!
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While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Christian Women in or our of touch - 11/5/2009 6:48:57 PM
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mrtigger
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I would like to explain something that I think is a cause of misunderstanding...
I had a recent failure related to this particular topic. I was grocery shopping last Sunday and encountered an attractive woman who was dressed in a ankle length dress although it was quite snug and showed her curves. At first I just noticed her and that's all. Then when I went to checkout, she was in line in front of me and I was behind her for several minutes.
I resisted looking at first but after a minute or so, I started checking her curves out. They were nice and I have had lustful thoughts about her.
Would I have been checking her out if she was not in a snug dress? Probably not. Does that make my lust her fault? No.
I could have resisted. I think I had a bit more character and integrity I could have pulled up and used to keep my eyes off her. But I didn't. And I could have moved to a different checkout line and avoided her being in my view altogether.
It was my responsibility to keep my mind pure and I did not. I probably would not have ogled her if she had been dressed differently but I do not put blame on her. I had proper choices and bad choices in front of me and I made the wrong choice. I am 100% responsible for those lustful thoughts I had about her.
So, do you understand how a guy can say a womans clothing has an affect on our struggles without meaning that the woman is at fault?
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mr tigger
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RE: Christian Women in or our of touch - 11/5/2009 6:57:50 PM
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Grace71
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Something I've been wondering though as I read this thread is what exactly do we as christians consider lust? I will be the first to admit that if I see a very attractive man, I will think to myself, 'wow, he's attractive, hot, etc.' But when does that turn to lust? IMO< it becomes lust when I think about touching, 'being with' etc. I think some people in this thread may have the mindset that even thinking someone is attractive is lusting.
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RE: Christian Women in or our of touch - 11/5/2009 7:28:10 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Mr. Tigger & Grace71
quote:
ORIGINAL: Grace71
Something I've been wondering though as I read this thread is what exactly do we as christians consider lust? I will be the first to admit that if I see a very attractive man, I will think to myself, 'wow, he's attractive, hot, etc.' But when does that turn to lust? IMO< it becomes lust when I think about touching, 'being with' etc. I think some people in this thread may have the mindset that even thinking someone is attractive is lusting.
Oh, my! I hope no one here thinks that!
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/5/2009 11:32:56 PM
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dnp200450
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BelleWeather
In Russia, and other parts of Europe, the human body is not always seen as fundamentally wicked, in need of constant correction. What a person does, how they live their life, how they treat others, is seen as a better gauge of corruption.
I am not disturbed by nudity. I am disturbed by people using their bodies like billboards advertising every base instinct with no competence. It's uncouth.
In Russia, and other parts of Europe, the human body is not always seen as fundamentally wicked, in need of constant correction. What a person does, how they live their life, how they treat others, is seen as a better gauge of corruption.
I am not disturbed by nudity. I am disturbed by people using their bodies like billboards advertising every base instinct with no competence. It's uncouth.
I grew up on my Granny's farm. We used a sauna, jumping naked into a hole cut in the ice. Swam naked in the river.
I have spent my dance training life in locker rooms, dressing rooms, at costume fittings naked or nearly naked, with other naked or nearly naked people.
I am not ashamed of my body. I am not afraid of my body. It is the best thing I have ever had.
I think the human body is a beautiful, extraordinary thing.
BelleWeather, you seem to be one of the few on this site who believe this way. I was born in the United States but have lived in quite a few countries in Europe as well as in Australia. As you may have seen in some of my posts, one actually being on this thread, many of the public beaches I have been too are optional topless or nude. In peoples private swimming pools people may or may swim with cloths on.
I have tried to demonstrate that perhaps one of the reasons why some men and women here (U.S.) claim to have so many temptation problems is because they have a certain lure about what they consider to be the “taboo” human body or “bad parts”. They may think virtually every Christian struggles with sexual temptation when that clearly isn’t the case. To me a general statement such as that would be the same as me saying every Christian struggles with the temptation to drink, smoke, snort or inject mind altering substances. How about, every Christian has to fight the urge to strike a person when they have an opposing viewpoint. I would never make such generalizations about Christians because they would be unfair.
Now as to how all of this relates directly to me and what I have been posting on this thread. I have seen women wearing revealing cloths in and out of church. It does not tempt me as a matter of fact it really turns me off. First off, they aren’t showing anymore than I have seen thousands of times on the world’s public beaches or at people’s overseas swimming pools. So no, I don’t get an automatic rush from seeing a naked woman. Secondly, when I see a woman dressed in church so revealingly, I pity her. Because out of all of the bars, nightclubs and discos around she is sooo desperate, she feels she has to dress like that for attention in a church. Talk about the wrong venue to use your low self esteem to hustle up guys. You can’t get more pathetic than that!
On a side not I feel that this who taboo body thinking could be what is contributing to a great deal of the body-image disorders we are seeing in our society. Many people just hate the human body. Men and women avoid cancer screening because the body parts where many cancers form are the “bad parts”. Cancers are allowed to run amok for years without any treatment. Even a Breast Self Exam TV program is very controversial to many people. Sorry, I digress.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Grace71
Something I've been wondering though as I read this thread is what exactly do we as christians consider lust? I will be the first to admit that if I see a very attractive man, I will think to myself, 'wow, he's attractive, hot, etc.' But when does that turn to lust? IMO< it becomes lust when I think about touching, 'being with' etc. I think some people in this thread may have the mindset that even thinking someone is attractive is lusting.
Grace71, you asked the $64,000 question! For many, not all, but many Christian men under 35 years of age, from certain Conservative/Evangelical/Pentecostal/Fundamentalist backgrounds, this is a major, major issue. It produces a lot of guilt, shame and ambiguity. Grace, to clarify; the confusing is not confined to the posters on this thread. Some of these men are so confused that when they are attracted to a woman they feel like they have to squash it and give it to prayer. They rarely if ever ask a woman out and may not even associate with women much.
So if you ever hear a Christian man say he struggles with lust, desire or temptation be very aware you understand what he is really saying. You two maybe miles apart in what you think needs prayer or forgiveness for. I don’t want to write too much about it because it will get the thread off topic. The below post is a more detailed version of some of the experiences I have had. Though this was posted on the men’s section it will explain a little of the $64,000 question
http://forums.crosswalk.com/fb.aspx?m=4570100
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 6:48:49 AM
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benelchi
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Some observations:
1) Most of the women posting here simply do not understand how men react to a woman's body. Some (like Elena) seem to recognize this and have really tried hard to show understanding; however, some (like hislamb) show nothing but disdain, distrust, and disgust for her male brothers; her posts are as equally offensive as the most extreme posts on the otherside of this issue have been.
2) Most Christian men do understand lust is a universal problem that affects men and women equally. However, we also recognize that the specific ways in which we struggle with issues of lust are different. There many areas in life where men simply do not understand the issues women face, and yet we hear over and over about how we need to show understanding despite our lack of understanding. Women are right, men do need to show grace to our sisters in Christ, our wives, our daughters, etc... when we face those issues that we don't understand and we just wish more women would feel the need to do the same for us.
3) Most Christian men are not blaming women because they lust, and we really do understand that some men will lust no matter what a woman choses to wear. However, we also understand that immodest dress makes the struggles for men more difficult. Yes, there are extremely beatiful women that can draw the attention of men no matter how they are dressed and simply being an attraction to men is NOT sin (men really do understand that!).
4) Reality check: most men do not come to church dressed in the kind of skin revealing, over the top tight fitting cloths that many women choose and if the did (and were professing christians) some man would tell them that their dress was inapropriate for church. How many times have women really noticed shirts on men at church that reveals half of a man's chest and looks like the rest will be revealed if he move in just the right way? How many times do you see any man wearing a shirt so tight and made of a material so thin that outline of a nipple cannot be missed? How many times have you seen men at church that wear clothing so transparent that the color of underware can be determined or the color of skin when it is clear there is no underware? At one church I remember a young woman who was singing a solo in church wearing a very tight dress that had an opening that exposed her midriff that went so low that she must have needed to shave to avoid displaying her pubic hair. Where were the men supposed to be looking? Do women not understand why would be disturbed when a woman dressed like that was permitted to lead worship in front of the church. Yes, sometimes men do come to church dressed inapropriately, but seldom do they cross the line as far as some women feel the freedom to do. Most men, (even those who chose to honor God in their thoughts) can give examples of dress that is extremely immodest (even by the worlds standards) chosen as attire by Christian women in the church.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 7:09:13 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3351
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
some (like hislamb) show nothing but disdain, distrust, and disgust for her male brothers; her posts are as equally offensive as the most extreme posts on the otherside of this issue have been.
You may choose to read disgust and disdain in her posts, but that is your choice. Her posts have shown frustration with a certain attitude, certain beliefs perpetuated by some men (and women for that matter), but I have not seen her speak ill of men period. In fact she is a loving wife, so I'm not sure how she could be disgusted by men, yet love her husband.
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Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 7:35:26 AM
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benelchi
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
some (like hislamb) show nothing but disdain, distrust, and disgust for her male brothers; her posts are as equally offensive as the most extreme posts on the otherside of this issue have been.
You may choose to read disgust and disdain in her posts, but that is your choice. Her posts have shown frustration with a certain attitude, certain beliefs perpetuated by some men (and women for that matter), but I have not seen her speak ill of men period. In fact she is a loving wife, so I'm not sure how she could be disgusted by men, yet love her husband.
Maybe she thinks her husband is different from every other man or maybe she does not realize what she is communicating in her posts. And maybe she needs to understand that men are as frustrated with women who come across with this kind of attide as women are (rightly so) frustrated with men who do try to blame all the world's evil on women. Niether extreme is acceptable.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 7:52:33 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
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quote:
Some of these men are so confused that when they are attracted to a woman they feel like they have to squash it and give it to prayer.
dnp200450, you've brought up a good point (I read the post you linked, too). Women also have warped ideas about things. Even in this thread I get the idea that some single women have guilt if they dress, not scantily or with inordinate amounts of skin showing, but to look attractive to the opposite sex period. They feel like they've sinned for trying to look nice anywhere at any time.
Women are between a rock and a hard place, too. They want to be married but they're not allowed to attract a man's attention. That is seriously warped.
Again, I'm not talking about dressing like a hooker in church or out. I'm talking about nice clothes that fit nicely and are flattering. Man, I cannot imagine apologizing to half the population because I look particularly nice in a certain set of clothes.
One of the problems with threads like this is that only the women who already care are reading it. Then they learn that "women" (which they are one) are causing their brothers to stumble and they take it to heart and over-analyze what their heart condition is when they get dressed in the morning. It sends women who aren't doing anything wrong but want to always do the right thing into a mentally twisted approach to themselves and to the opposite sex.
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Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 8:18:22 AM
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Focusing
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One thing that strikes me is the complaints about women who are dressed in obviously immodest clothing. I understand how their attire can (1) make men blush and struggle, and (2) tick off women who are doing their best to be sensitive to their brothers in Christ. However, because there is the occasional woman who uses clearly obviously BAD judgment in getting dressed for church, please don't lump all women into one category. I have been in a lot of churches in large cities known for promoting bodies ... and I just am not seeing huge numbers of women coming to church dressed in tiny tight fitting lust-inducing meant-to-cause-men-to-think-of-sex outfits. The occasional woman, yes, but I believe the vast majority of women do dress in an acceptable manner.
It's a fact of humanity that some people just don't get it. We can pray that they are convicted, but we cannot force them to suddenly have an understanding about dressing *properly*.
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11/21 is the 11th Annual National Survivors of Suicide Day
Please remember to lift those in prayer who have lost a loved one to suicide
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 8:30:00 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
Posts: 4185
Joined: 12/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
One thing that strikes me is the complaints about women who are dressed in obviously immodest clothing. I understand how their attire can (1) make men blush and struggle, and (2) tick off women who are doing their best to be sensitive to their brothers in Christ. However, because there is the occasional woman who uses clearly obviously BAD judgment in getting dressed for church, please don't lump all women into one category. I have been in a lot of churches in large cities known for promoting bodies ... and I just am not seeing huge numbers of women coming to church dressed in tiny tight fitting lust-inducing meant-to-cause-men-to-think-of-sex outfits. The occasional woman, yes, but I believe the vast majority of women do dress in an acceptable manner.
It's a fact of humanity that some people just don't get it. We can pray that they are convicted, but we cannot force them to suddenly have an understanding about dressing *properly*.
We could also <gasp> develop a relationship with her and get to know what the underlying cause is. Why she needs that particular type of attention or why she doesn't think she looks good enough in other clothes. Telling someone "don't wear that, it's a sin" doesn't do much about what's really wrong.
Using Benelchi's example...I would have to say that the clothing was merely a symptom of something else going on with her.
< Message edited by CoeurdeLeon -- 11/6/2009 8:37:01 AM >
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Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
What have we to fear?
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 8:58:17 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4576
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
One thing that strikes me is the complaints about women who are dressed in obviously immodest clothing. I understand how their attire can (1) make men blush and struggle, and (2) tick off women who are doing their best to be sensitive to their brothers in Christ. However, because there is the occasional woman who uses clearly obviously BAD judgment in getting dressed for church, please don't lump all women into one category. I have been in a lot of churches in large cities known for promoting bodies ... and I just am not seeing huge numbers of women coming to church dressed in tiny tight fitting lust-inducing meant-to-cause-men-to-think-of-sex outfits. The occasional woman, yes, but I believe the vast majority of women do dress in an acceptable manner.
It's a fact of humanity that some people just don't get it. We can pray that they are convicted, but we cannot force them to suddenly have an understanding about dressing *properly*.
We could also <gasp> develop a relationship with her and get to know what the underlying cause is. Why she needs that particular type of attention or why she doesn't think she looks good enough in other clothes. Telling someone "don't wear that, it's a sin" doesn't do much about what's really wrong.
Using Benelchi's example...I would have to say that the clothing was merely a symptom of something else going on with her.
I agree that dealing with this kind of issue in this way is best as long as the issue of attire is adressed in the process. Trying to understand the heart issue is always going to result in a better outcome than simply adressing only the outward symptoms of a problem.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 9:04:25 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4576
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
One thing that strikes me is the complaints about women who are dressed in obviously immodest clothing. I understand how their attire can (1) make men blush and struggle, and (2) tick off women who are doing their best to be sensitive to their brothers in Christ. However, because there is the occasional woman who uses clearly obviously BAD judgment in getting dressed for church, please don't lump all women into one category. I have been in a lot of churches in large cities known for promoting bodies ... and I just am not seeing huge numbers of women coming to church dressed in tiny tight fitting lust-inducing meant-to-cause-men-to-think-of-sex outfits. The occasional woman, yes, but I believe the vast majority of women do dress in an acceptable manner.
It's a fact of humanity that some people just don't get it. We can pray that they are convicted, but we cannot force them to suddenly have an understanding about dressing *properly*.
In most of the churches I have attended the problem with immodesty is probably exibited by 1 in 20 women, but by about 1 in 2 of those in the teens and low twenties. The big issue is that most churches simply do not ever adress the issue with any woman or they are over the top militant with every woman; there seems to not be a healthy place in between.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 10:00:58 AM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1451
Joined: 3/13/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
One thing that strikes me is the complaints about women who are dressed in obviously immodest clothing. I understand how their attire can (1) make men blush and struggle, and (2) tick off women who are doing their best to be sensitive to their brothers in Christ. However, because there is the occasional woman who uses clearly obviously BAD judgment in getting dressed for church, please don't lump all women into one category. I have been in a lot of churches in large cities known for promoting bodies ... and I just am not seeing huge numbers of women coming to church dressed in tiny tight fitting lust-inducing meant-to-cause-men-to-think-of-sex outfits. The occasional woman, yes, but I believe the vast majority of women do dress in an acceptable manner.
It's a fact of humanity that some people just don't get it. We can pray that they are convicted, but we cannot force them to suddenly have an understanding about dressing *properly*.
In most of the churches I have attended the problem with immodesty is probably exibited by 1 in 20 women, but by about 1 in 2 of those in the teens and low twenties. The big issue is that most churches simply do not ever adress the issue with any woman or they are over the top militant with every woman; there seems to not be a healthy place in between.
benelchi I thought your account of what it is like for men a few posts back was excellent.
I think I need to point out again that no one is talking about a new comer, or a person who has only just become a Christian. As well as that maybe a teenager can be excused to a certain extent alhough their parents need to speak to them about that. However I have seen quite a few older women ,many of them married with kids who have been Christians for years and years dressing quite provocatively.
. I cant see that any women is going to object to a pastor giving a short talk on modesty and if they do then there is surely something worng.
In our last church this affected about one in five women (which is why we left) In our present church it is much less common, maybe one in 50.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 10:07:31 AM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1451
Joined: 3/13/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
quote:
The big issue is that most churches simply do not ever adress the issue with any woman or they are over the top militant with every woman; there seems to not be a healthy place in between.
I sat in a church with somewhere between 10,000 and 12,000 people in attendance where the issue was addressed by the senior pastor. It wasn't the sermon he had planned either, we all had the outline of what he was going to preach about in our hands, and proper attire wasn't it.  I have to admit that is the only time I can remember the issue being addressed in such a way, and I give that pastor huge kudos for having done so!!
The militant approach is wrong wrong wrong imo. As modestly as I dress, even I have problems with that. Those types of churches just scream *control freaks* and comes too close to cultish behavior.
The healthy place in between ... well, I think that's a big reason why people jump from church to church and why it's hard to get to know people. It really is unfortunate.
That pastor was a brave man indeed. Good to see that he wasnt afraid to say it like it is.After all it is in the Bible and so should be part of the teaching.
As you say there is always a balance in everything.
My husband was talking to a man that he knows who he is doing some work for the other day, and this man is an elder in his church. He asked why we left our last church, and when my hsuband told him, he said that if that happened in his church someome wouuld have a quiet word in private with that person/people. That is what would happen at our church as well with anyone who was consistantly wearing revealing clothes (I'm not talking about a one off time)
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 11:08:58 AM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 659
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
However I have seen quite a few older women ,many of them married with kids who have been Christians for years and years dressing quite provocatively.
. I cant see that any women is going to object to a pastor giving a short talk on modesty and if they do then there is surely something worng.
Did anyone address this individual? Do they even realize they are dressing "provocatively"? It's one of those things, the what's provocative to one is not provocative to another. I don't mind these things being addressed from the pulpit if really needed but when you do that you really run the risk of, "Oh that sermon wasn't for me it must of been Ms, Soandso. For instance it's gonna be a waste of time trying to have a sermon about Modesty for my wife, but the person who really needs it might also be the one who also doesn't think she has a problem.
G
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It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 12:29:04 PM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1451
Joined: 3/13/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
However I have seen quite a few older women ,many of them married with kids who have been Christians for years and years dressing quite provocatively.
. I cant see that any women is going to object to a pastor giving a short talk on modesty and if they do then there is surely something worng.
Did anyone address this individual? Do they even realize they are dressing "provocatively"? It's one of those things, the what's provocative to one is not provocative to another. I don't mind these things being addressed from the pulpit if really needed but when you do that you really run the risk of, "Oh that sermon wasn't for me it must of been Ms, Soandso. For instance it's gonna be a waste of time trying to have a sermon about Modesty for my wife, but the person who really needs it might also be the one who also doesn't think she has a problem.
G
The leaders admitted that there was a problem. They said that the youth leasder was going to do a bit of teaching on it to the young people but, she also liked to wear low cut tops so not sure what good that would have done. Also, that wouldnt have made any dfference to the older women anyway.I think that everyone is so scared of the possibility of offending anyone that nothing really gets done and the problem remains.
By provocative I mean low cut tops, short short dresses, see through clothes, belly exposed etc etc..
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 12:37:16 PM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1451
Joined: 3/13/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
However I have seen quite a few older women ,many of them married with kids who have been Christians for years and years dressing quite provocatively.
. I cant see that any women is going to object to a pastor giving a short talk on modesty and if they do then there is surely something worng.
Did anyone address this individual? Do they even realize they are dressing "provocatively"? It's one of those things, the what's provocative to one is not provocative to another. I don't mind these things being addressed from the pulpit if really needed but when you do that you really run the risk of, "Oh that sermon wasn't for me it must of been Ms, Soandso. For instance it's gonna be a waste of time trying to have a sermon about Modesty for my wife, but the person who really needs it might also be the one who also doesn't think she has a problem.
G
It wasnt just an individual, it was several, in fact about one in 10 I would think, some worse than others, and all Christians.
The leaders admitted that there was a problem. They said that the youth leasder was going to do a bit of teaching on it to the young people but, she also liked to wear low cut tops so not sure what good that would have done. Also, that wouldnt have made any dfference to the older women anyway.I think that everyone is so scared of the possibility of offending anyone that nothing really gets done and the problem remains. Ayway we left and have never regretted it.
I also heard of a couple who had 2 teenage boys who actually had to leave their chuch becuase they were so appalled at the way some of the young women were dressing. Again they dod mention it but nothing was done.They were trying to do the best for their sons.
By provocative I mean low cut tops, short short dresses, see through clothes, belly exposed, halter necks with very low cut neck line etc etc.I think that most of us would agree that these clothes are immodest.
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 12:44:09 PM
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Focusing
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Joined: 5/19/2007
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So, let's say the church leadership has addressed the issue and the young/older women continued to dress in the same manner ... what would you suggest the next step would be?
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11/21 is the 11th Annual National Survivors of Suicide Day
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 2:50:03 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 659
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From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
So, let's say the church leadership has addressed the issue and the young/older women continued to dress in the same manner ... what would you suggest the next step would be?
I am wondering the same thing too.
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It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Christian Women In or Out of touch? - 11/6/2009 3:19:41 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5589
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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hmmm...well, there is that thread about stoning people today. 
So, other than enforcing a dress code - nothing.
< Message edited by doinkdom -- 11/6/2009 3:28:51 PM >
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Rest assured, dear friends, that where your pleasure is, there your heart is.
- Charles Spurgeon
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