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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/9/2009 7:19:11 AM
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CommonSense549
Posts: 92
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
Here's another idea I'm trying to wrap my mind around. Why do christians believe that everyone is given an obvious choice between heaven and hell when that isn't the case at all?
absolute truth is the belief that when Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but thru me" in Jn 14:6, He meant it.... there is no other salvation except Jesus Christ. and the alternative is Judgement where sins are not covered by His blood. that is the bad outcome.
relativism is the belief that ....There are no absolutes." First of all, the relativist is declaring there are absolutely no absolutes That is an absolute statement. The statement is logically contradictory..... absolutely no absolutes?
All interesting points, but my question remains. How can Christians believe that the souls in this world are given a fair choice between heaven and hell when, logically, that's hardly the case?
< Message edited by CommonSense549 -- 11/9/2009 7:35:55 AM >
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/11/2009 6:06:28 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
Here's another idea I'm trying to wrap my mind around. Why do christians believe that everyone is given an obvious choice between heaven and hell when that isn't the case at all?
That's a good point. There are many people who sincerely believe that God does not exist, and will be surprised to meet Him after they die. I believe that many of those people would then change their mind about "accepting Jesus", given the chance.
Anyway, from the Bible, here is an answer as to how we can believe such a thing as you say:
Romans 2:12 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
< Message edited by WanderingLamb -- 11/11/2009 6:25:42 PM >
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/13/2009 3:18:46 PM
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CommonSense549
Posts: 92
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Bump. This is a major thing. I don't want it to be ignored.
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/13/2009 4:56:42 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
Bump. This is a major thing. I don't want it to be ignored.
I don't think we're allowed to "bump" here.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/14/2009 1:18:26 AM
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Zst Xkn
Posts: 4
Joined: 11/13/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Romans 2:12 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
So this must be the source of the idea that simply being moral is good enough for God. Being in the bible that's pretty absolute however contradicted by:
quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
absolute truth is the belief that when Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but thru me" in Jn 14:6
To be ignorant of the law is to be ignorant of Jesus. Simply doing right by the law apparently isn't good enough for Him.
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/14/2009 3:13:58 AM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zst Xkn
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Romans 2:12 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
So this must be the source of the idea that simply being moral is good enough for God. Being in the bible that's pretty absolute however contradicted by:
quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
absolute truth is the belief that when Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but thru me" in Jn 14:6
To be ignorant of the law is to be ignorant of Jesus. Simply doing right by the law apparently isn't good enough for Him.
Zst Xkn, your meaning in this post is not clear to me.
I was trying to answer "COMMON SENSE"'s question as to how believers reconcile the fact that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except by Him, with the fact that there are many people in the world that die without even hearing about Him. The question is, how are they judged then, if they are not given the clear opportunity to "choose Christ"?
< Message edited by WanderingLamb -- 11/14/2009 3:21:06 AM >
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/14/2009 8:49:56 AM
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makarizo
Posts: 2512
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zst Xkn
To be ignorant of the law is to be ignorant of Jesus. Simply doing right by the law apparently isn't good enough for Him.
amen... no one is good enough, moral enough, righteous, we are all fallen, and our nature is corrupt and helpless. and the law only reaffirms this!! (Romans 7:10)
when we put God in a box, or make salvation a formula, we become like the church of Galatia, (3) You foolish Galatians! what magician has cast an evil spell on you? For you used to see the meaning of Jesus Christ's death as clearly as a picture. Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the law? of course not, for the holy spirit came upon you only after you believed the message you heard about Christ. Have you lost your senses? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit. why are you now trying to become perfect thru your own human effort?
....... does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law of Moses? of course not! it is because you believe the message you heard about Christ. and in the same way Abraham believed God so God declared him righteous because of faith. The real children of Abraham then, are all those who put their faith in God.
grace thru faith.
Hebrews 10:16 This is the new covenant I will make with my people on that day, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their hearts so they will understand them, and I will write them on their minds so they will obey them."
_____________________________
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/14/2009 9:19:16 AM
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Ohioman1972
Posts: 78
Joined: 8/20/2009
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zst Xkn
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Romans 2:12 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
So this must be the source of the idea that simply being moral is good enough for God. Being in the bible that's pretty absolute however contradicted by:
quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
absolute truth is the belief that when Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but thru me" in Jn 14:6
To be ignorant of the law is to be ignorant of Jesus. Simply doing right by the law apparently isn't good enough for Him.
Zst Xkn, your meaning in this post is not clear to me.
I was trying to answer "COMMON SENSE"'s question as to how believers reconcile the fact that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except by Him, with the fact that there are many people in the world that die without even hearing about Him. The question is, how are they judged then, if they are not given the clear opportunity to "choose Christ"?
(Emphasis mine)
I think the answer is here:
John 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
< Message edited by Ohioman1972 -- 11/14/2009 9:33:07 AM >
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/14/2009 10:58:14 AM
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CommonSense549
Posts: 92
Joined: 9/28/2009
Status: offline
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So people are avoiding the question I posed without being willing to face the reality of such a big flaw in Christianity head on? Can't say I'm surprised. I've noticed that behavior in my talks with Christians before.
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/15/2009 11:38:26 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
So people are avoiding the question I posed without being willing to face the reality of such a big flaw in Christianity head on? Can't say I'm surprised. I've noticed that behavior in my talks with Christians before.
As I said, I believe the answer is found in this Scripture:
Romans 2:12 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
But since you do not want to take into account any Bible verses, let me explain it to you: those who do not have the full revelation still have God's laws written on their hearts. Their conscience is their guide. God judges their hearts. Everyone is judged according to the amount of faith and revelation they are given. Period.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/16/2009 10:49:25 AM
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CommonSense549
Posts: 92
Joined: 9/28/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
those who do not have the full revelation still have God's laws written on their hearts.
If it's written into our hearts, then it's obviously written in so deep that most people don't even realize it's there. And, once again, that's unfair, because people can't be blamed for not making the choice between heaven and hell when they aren't even convinced that the choice is there.
The issue remains. No matter what the bible says, it's still a fact that most people honestly can't say for sure that the Christian god is real, or that any god is real.
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/16/2009 7:35:28 PM
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makarizo
Posts: 2512
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
How can Christians believe that the souls in this world are given a fair choice between heaven and hell when, logically, that's hardly the case?
I don't think Christians who are Calvinist do think that...... (i am not a calvinist)
so for me to answer this, it goes back to faith, and the knowledge that God is a just God, and as high as the heavens are above the Earth, so are His ways higher than mine.
I - as a Christian - have a responsibility to share the gospel which is the good news, with everyone I can.
so "how can I believe that the souls.......?"... by trusting in God.
_____________________________
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/16/2009 7:53:06 PM
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CommonSense549
Posts: 92
Joined: 9/28/2009
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quote:
by trusting in God.
I'm going to have to call this out and say that, plain and simple, it's not a good enough response. The fact of the matter is that, if there is in fact a choice between heaven and hell in the way Christians think of it, most of the world isn't aware of that choice because they genuinely don't believe in Christianity. They'll go to hell without even being given a chance to save themselves from it. "God works in higher ways" isn't a good enough excuse for that.
So I come to the conclusion that if the Christian god is real, he is a very flawed god indeed. Not nearly as 'perfect' as Christians claim him to be.
< Message edited by CommonSense549 -- 11/16/2009 7:59:21 PM >
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/17/2009 10:46:48 PM
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minimoe59
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Joined: 10/27/2009
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I have a friend that thinks all faiths are a little wrong and a little right. If you take a little from all of them, then you can't go wrong. It's a load of ****, but he is of Japanese decent, so he is really a Buddhist deep down.
I have told him one thing over and over. The main difference between Christianity and every other world religion comes down to one thing....Every other religion in the world is based on what an individual can do to "earn" their way to Heaven. Christianity is the only "religion" that is based on what someone else did to "buy" your way to Heaven. Christianity is not about what you do, but what you believe. Other religions are not about what you believe, but what you do. Simple as that
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