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The "what if" argument... - 10/30/2009 10:44:32 AM
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DestinysChild
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Here's a debate for everyone (note that I am just presenting this argument to the floor):
There is a sort of abyss of an argument that I've never seen an intellectual Atheist really slam dunk on a believer in any singular absolute faith.
The statement is: "What if the Bible is true? Then you'll burn in hell and I won't."
The immediate argument, and the most common one, is to always present a counter-example along the lines of: "What if Muslims are right? Or Hindus? You would be wrong in your belief and you would go to hell if Muslims are right. So how do you choose Christianity? There are a million different people out there with a million different beliefs. What makes yours right?"
This sounds like a solid response. And a logical person can take it and make sense of it. Since there are so many religions, you have to choose the right one based on some accurate criteria.
However, for the Christian, their original question is still unanswered, or debunked. They still "could" be right.
In fact, they can just say "Yes, Muslims are possibly right, so are Hindus. But I know Christianity is. How do you know it isn't?"
There seems to be a large answer to this question.
You have to outline what you are gaining and what the other person is losing. I think that this is attempted to be communicated, but fails to do so. If the purpose of life is exploration, then limiting one's ability to explore by asserting something to be true even though it is improbable is counter-productive.
So, I think the first answer that one must get out of a Christian is the acknowledgement that given that there are a million different beliefs out there, that from a purely statistical standpoint regardless of whether Christianity is true or not, it is improbable that if you pick one religion out of a million you will find the one that is the truth. The odds are 1/1000000.
Most likely, they will agree.
From there, you may have to address certain things the Christian will put forward as historical or scientific facts that make it more likely that the bible is true. Arguing these can be hard or difficult, but in the end there is at least as much historical accuracy to the bible as there is grave innacuracy. The existence of dinosaurs, common DNA, the age of the world, transitional creatures in the evolutionary chain, etc. This should not be presented to prove that Christianity is wrong, just to counter the idea that it is more likely to be true than any other of the million beliefs out there. A chrisitan is unliekly to argue that a belief that is highly scientifically innacurate is more probably true from a statistical standpoint than one that is scientifically sound.
So, at this point both you and the Christian have reached a point where you both agree that Christianity, whether it is true or not, is statistically improbable.
At this point, all you say then is: "In the universe, all we have is probability to determine truth since nothing is ever definite. Since Christianity is improbable, it is unreasonable to subscribe to it as truth if we use probability to determine other decisions and beliefs in our lives."
In other words, if we avoid fire because we believe it will burn us, this is acting in consistency with probability. If we eat because we are hungry it is because we conclude that food will probably make the hunger go away. If we do a hundred different things each day that are in accordance with probability, we certainly prove that we subscribe to the law of probability. Therefore, the reason behind why we choose to believe improbable things is because of some bias or interference that we are not aware of, that either makes it probable to us or makes us want to believe it is probable.
Unless you can provide me with the something in your mind that makes it probable to you, it must remain improbable to me, based on the information shared previously. Further, if you cannot provide that information to me, you probably don't have access to it yourself. If this is the case, you should ask yourself why you believe it is the truth, given that you can't explain why you think so.
In the end, this is the conclusive step form:
1) Prove that Christianity is as improbable as Islam
2) Prove that we all subscribe to probability
3) Request the information that makes Christianity probable.
4) Christianity remains improbable.
=) Proof that the Christian is acting unreasonably in their beliefs.
My answer is God Is
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 10/30/2009 10:56:53 AM
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KaptZ
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This reminds me of a quote of Prof. James Campbell-
A clergyman asked him, "What if I could prove the existence of God?".
Campbell replied, "Then what would be the point of faith?".
Always liked that.
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 10/30/2009 11:04:15 AM
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DestinysChild
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I like that too... That says alot
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 10/30/2009 11:07:40 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
Unless you can provide me with the something in your mind that makes it probable to you, it must remain improbable to me, based on the information shared previously.
DestinysChild,
I see this is your first post. Welcome to the forum! And I like your name 'DestinysChild'.  You know more about yourself and your future than your questions would imply.
You are DestinysChild. God chose you from before creation to give you a future and a hope. He has a wonderful inheritance waiting for you, a destiny of royalty. His destiny for you is for your adoption into His family, as a son through His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ. That's the destiny that awaits you, is prepared for you, if you are willing to receive it. It is offered freely to all, a glorious gift from a Father Who longs for all to be saved and come to the knowledge of Himself.
You challenged me (in the quote above) to provide you with something in my mind that makes what I know to be true probable to you. I can't do that. You see, coming to believe truth is a work of the Spirit of God. It is His work to do. I can tell you what He has made known to me but I cannot give that knowing to you. You must receive it for yourself.
But I can tell you that I don't believe your thoughts regarding 'probability'. Probability is rooted in man's wisdom. Belief, knowing God, is rooted in God, a revealed truth not achieved through my reasoning mind. It is spiritual in nature and imparted by God Himself.
But my prayer is that you long to know truth, not facts, not scientific data, but truth. There is a difference and the difference is vast. Truth is found in Jesus Christ alone. He is the Truth.
He wants you to find Him in Whom resides all truth. I pray you do. Liveloved
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 10/31/2009 4:16:43 AM
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DestinysChild
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I have found Him and I have Him in me daily... I know the truth ...I was just presenting an argument that i heard ,,,,To know the truth, I believe you should be able to see a fable.. You know Satan can speak tuth , also. But, just enough truth to fool the masses..Soo, i thoughht this argument sounded feasible.. To those that dwelll in the darkness of the mind. You are right on in evertyhing you said// But, My last statement should have told you where my heart is.. I said God just Is?? Thank you you are a very kind and I can feel Gods love around you
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 10/31/2009 2:41:21 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DestinysChild
I have found Him and I have Him in me daily... I know the truth ...I was just presenting an argument that i heard ,,,,To know the truth, I believe you should be able to see a fable.. You know Satan can speak tuth , also. But, just enough truth to fool the masses..Soo, i thoughht this argument sounded feasible.. To those that dwelll in the darkness of the mind. You are right on in evertyhing you said// But, My last statement should have told you where my heart is.. I said God just Is?? Thank you you are a very kind and I can feel Gods love around you
I am glad you know Him, DestinysChild, because that means you know your true destiny. I'm sorry I misunderstood your last statement. I thought that was supposed to be for us to answer, such as God is . . . Anyway, blessings. LL
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 10/31/2009 6:43:02 PM
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drmark
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quote:
The statement is: "What if the Bible is true? Then you'll burn in hell and I won't." Are you familiar with Pascal's Wager, DC? Your scenario sounds very much like its use in apologetics.
quote:
I said God just Is?? Indeed, DC, God Himself stated that unmistakeably in Exodus 3:14! Only the Infinite, Eternal, Omnipotent Creator of the universe could prove His existence by merely stating it to be so. Wow!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 10/31/2009 9:43:01 PM
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deermousie
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"What if" sounds like a request to create an alternate (unreal) universe. It doesn't exist, so why argue over it?
_____________________________
"Through Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot
"Federal Husband" by Doug Wilson
www.biblegateway.com for online concordance (I use it daily)
"Passion and Purity" by Elizabeth Elliot
And I think chickens are really funny
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 10/31/2009 10:16:03 PM
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drmark
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quote:
"What if" sounds like a request to create an alternate (unreal) universe. But deermousie, that is the whole point of apologetics. To the agnostic/atheist, all things pertaining to God, the Bible, and Christian morality are "unreal", because they deny and reject them. We have a responsibility to explain and support the reasons that God, the Bible and Christian morals are truly real - 1 Peter 3:15 - not just for us, but for the lost as well!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/1/2009 9:23:48 AM
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drmark
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quote:
We don't let the people who don't know the truth frame the question of reality. Then you will have very little opportunity to use apologetics in your interaction with the lost, deermousie. That's kinda sad because you seem to have a vibrant Christian faith. God bless you, dm!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/1/2009 9:37:14 AM
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CommonSense549
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quote:
we don't let the people who don't know the truth
Lol, no one 'knows' the truth. No one 'knows' anything, though most like to think they do.
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/1/2009 10:01:16 AM
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drmark
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quote:
No one 'knows' anything, though most like to think they do. Thankfully, you are wrong, CS549. Since I have the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16), I do know the Truth (John 14:6)!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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The "what if" argument... - 11/1/2009 10:07:47 AM
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PinkCarnations
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
we don't let the people who don't know the truth
Lol, no one 'knows' the truth. No one 'knows' anything, though most like to think they do.
How can you say that you don't know truth?
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Thank you Veterans.
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/1/2009 10:16:41 AM
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rcjames
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This thread reminds me of a word game my grandfather used to play with us kids;
He would ask "What if the otter would have had a flat tail"?
The answer was that it would not have been an otter, but a beaver.
The same nonsensical reasoning applies to the "What if" questions about our faith.
God is, God was, and God shall always be.
And I believe that, which is why it is called "Faith".
And Scripture is very plain about why folks refuse to believe in Christ, and it has nothing to do with reasoning;
(Joh 3:17) For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.
(Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:19) And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/1/2009 10:18:07 AM
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CommonSense549
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quote:
Since I have the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16), I do know the Truth (John 14:6)!
Humor me, then. What possibly makes you believe you have the mind of christ?
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/1/2009 10:22:11 AM
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CommonSense549
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quote:
(Joh 3:17) For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.
(Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:19) And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
All fine and dandy, though it proves absolutely nothing.
And, there's the fact that faith isn't enough. Believing in something in no way makes it a certainty. That means that when you believe in something, the belief fails to change that you still know nothing at all. And when you don't know anything, a 'what if' will exist.
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/1/2009 10:59:29 AM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
And, there's the fact that faith isn't enough. Believing in something in no way makes it a certainty.
faith is the very thing that brings about the revelation of Christ. ... faith was enough, but it was Christ's revealing Himself that made it unmistakably absolute truth.
something that would make no sense to someone who doesn't have it, the dilemma is then how to explain this nonsense.
So I read Romans 1:20 - " for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power, and divine nature have been clearly seen being understood thru what has been made so that they are without excuse........"
and I ponder and ponder and ponder......."without excuse"
God is sooooo obviously noticeable that the one's who miss Him are without excuse.
what could I possibly say that would add to that and convince someone that there is only one truth, one God, one faith.
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/1/2009 11:13:00 AM
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CommonSense549
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quote:
but it was Christ's revealing Himself that made it unmistakably absolute truth.
How do you know that Christ revealed himself to you?
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/1/2009 4:41:09 PM
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drmark
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quote:
And Scripture is very plain about why folks refuse to believe in Christ, and it has nothing to do with reasoning; Indeed, RC, there is a very intriguing passage, Romans 1:18-20, which indicates to me that agno-atheists are willfully suppressing their rational ability to "see the evidence" for God's existence all around them. That's a pretty scary thought that they will have absolutely no excuse at Judgement Day... 
quote:
What possibly makes you believe you have the mind of christ? Nothing "possibly" about it, CS! God Himself, the Eternal One, Who created you and me, has assured me by His grace and power that I am His child and that He has made me a new creature with the mind of Christ in control. This is "possible" for anyone, CS, not just me. Are you interested?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/1/2009 5:15:38 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1809
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quote:
rcjames
And Scripture is very plain about why folks refuse to believe in Christ, and it has nothing to do with reasoning;
(Joh 3:17) For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.
(Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:19) And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
Absolutely true. . . and one of my most referenced verses of scripture.
So if we believe this (what RC quoted), what are we misunderstanding about this? (see statement below)
quote:
drmark
We have a responsibility to explain and support the reasons that God, the Bible and Christian morals are truly real - 1 Peter 3:15
< Message edited by Liveloved -- 11/1/2009 5:23:25 PM >
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/1/2009 8:54:29 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
but it was Christ's revealing Himself that made it unmistakably absolute truth.
How do you know that Christ revealed himself to you?
your question kinda answers itself. The summer I turned 14, after years of reading the bible, and believing in Him, one June morning as I was praying (to Him), I had a vision, and after that His love moved inside of me. everything in my life changed. ...... that was 30 years ago, In all that time, there has never been 1 "what if" Perhaps the experience was unique to me, but everyone who has had the revelation understands perfectly, and everyone who hasn't just doesn't get it.
In my life, I have 'crossed the line' (walked with people who have said the prayer that asks for Christ's salvation) with more than a couple handfuls of people. The commonalities in all of the people were: willingness, readiness, and faith.
Jn 14:21 Jesus said that he who has My teachings and keeps them is the one who loves Me and he who loves me will be loved by My Father and I will love him and will disclosed (reveal) Myself to him.
In Jn 14:23 Jesus said that "if you love Me, and keep my words, My Father will love you back, and we will come to you and make Our home in you"
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/1/2009 9:21:40 PM
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drmark
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quote:
quote:
How do you know that Christ revealed himself to you?
your question kinda answers itself. Amen, makarizo! Hebrews 10:15 says it all.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: The "what if" argument... - 11/2/2009 2:18:11 AM
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WanderingLamb
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Interesting thread! I would add:
John 6:44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’d Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life.
Job 5:8“But if it were I, I would appeal to God;
I would lay my cause before him.
9He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed,
miracles that cannot be counted.
10He bestows rain on the earth;
he sends water upon the countryside.
11The lowly he sets on high,
and those who mourn are lifted to safety.
12He thwarts the plans of the crafty,
so that their hands achieve no success.
13 He catches the wise in their craftiness,
and the schemes of the wily are swept away.
And:
Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.
...and...
Proverbs 26:4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
or you will be like him yourself.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
or he will be wise in his own eyes.
1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.
I could go on and on....and on, but I'm afraid if I make my post too long, no one will read it! 
The pharisees constantly tried to trap Jesus, but He could not be trapped. And if we have the mind of Christ, we will not be fooled by such snares either.
< Message edited by WanderingLamb -- 11/2/2009 2:30:13 AM >
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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