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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 5:03:12 PM
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DeliveredDarling
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quote:
You have compassion for the predators, but not for their victims. And oh, how spiritual that makes you feel about yourself.
Jesus had compassion and love for us when we deserved death. How can we not have compassion for others?
People commit heinous crimes, Christ loves and died for them just like He died for us.
If we have been wounded and scarred, we have a Healer that is GREATER than a system of earthly justice.
We act as though the only justice that will ever be served is here on earth. We act like this system is the only one that will restore us to a wholeness and fix the wounds created by a perpetrator.
Really, RJR, how is that spiritual?
You want spiritual? Forgive those who have harmed you and feel the freedom that Christ has to offer through that forgiveness. If we don't forgive others, He will not forgive us.
There is no smugness.
You and I both deserved death-He gave us both life. Just as He offers to anyone willing to accept Him into their lives.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 5:04:52 PM
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DeliveredDarling
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quote:
He's the judge that declared death for murder of one made in His image.
His Son paid the price so death was no longer required.
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"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 5:10:16 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 7002
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
quote:
He's the judge that declared death for murder of one made in His image.
His Son paid the price so death was no longer required.
At no time, in case you missed it, did God remove the instrument of death from government. Romans is New Testament, not old.
And Jesus' atonement was for those whom He redeems, not those that reject Him to take innocent blood for sport.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 5:11:40 PM
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didymus101
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Whoa, I see where the confusion is; dbark brought it to my awareness.
I am addressing Christians, not the worldly. I am not saying nor have I ever said the government is not "an agent of wrath to bring punishment to the evildoer." My point has been and remains that stoning is not a Christian standard. These standards were abolished in Christ. He took the law onto himself and total faith in him is greater than the law.
On another note, as rawr.ben brought up, this standard of stoning also required strict regulations, which ours and no other government honors.
And while I am here and in case you have not returned to the other thread where you, a Christian brother, felt free to defame my character, RJR, cease, please. It makes you and this forum look ungodly.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 5:20:10 PM
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DeliveredDarling
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
quote:
He's the judge that declared death for murder of one made in His image.
His Son paid the price so death was no longer required.
At no time, in case you missed it, did God remove the instrument of death from government. Romans is New Testament, not old.
And Jesus' atonement was for those whom He redeems, not those that reject Him to take innocent blood for sport.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
quote:
He's the judge that declared death for murder of one made in His image.
His Son paid the price so death was no longer required.
At no time, in case you missed it, did God remove the instrument of death from government. Romans is New Testament, not old.
And Jesus' atonement was for those whom He redeems, not those that reject Him to take innocent blood for sport.
Yes, I'm aware the Romans is in the NT 
Follow down the vs in Rom. 13. Check out vs 9.
What doesn't it say? To kill as a form of punishment? Hmmmmm-that love your neighbor thing is a very difficult scripture for us to swallow isn't it?
It goes against every form of justice we have. it looks to be crazy! How do we love a person who has committed such horribly unspeakable crimes! Why do they deserve to live??????
Pride jumps in and blinds us Euty! Somehow we have decided that we are better than because we didn't commit that crime....
Yet, the bible clearly tells us that id we have broken one law, we are guilty of breaking ALL the laws. How heinous is that in the eyes of God?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 5:24:41 PM
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Eutychus
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Nope, God demands different penalties for different crimes. As I said earlier, we as individuals have no authority to exact revenge or take life, but God ordained that government make it safe for us, taking life from murderers when it is needed.
If I killed someone in cold blood for my own gain, then I too would deserve death at the hands of government.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 6:12:37 PM
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DeliveredDarling
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quote:
but God ordained that government make it safe for us, taking life from murderers when it is needed.
Can the government not be made of Christians? Should the person making laws be a Christian, wouldn't they then live a Christian life an by Christian principals?
If the people are not Christians then I can totally understand how they can make decisions as such.
I am not advocating that no punishment be incurred-I am speaking about taking life.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 7:17:48 PM
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didymus101
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God does not demand different punishments for different crimes. God demands forgiveness.
We live in a spiritual realm, that is the point of the New Covenant. Those "standards" were not God's ideal of justice for humanity, Jesus Christ is that ideal. Through him we have mercy. We are to live and move have our being in him and allow the Holy Spirit to renew us in that image, not follow abolished standards that were used as abject lessons. Those standards are gone, gone, gone.
Yet if you want stoning, marriage throughout most of this book of "God's standards" allowed for polygamy and even concubines. "God's standards" allows for and occasionally commands slavery. And we can go back to treating women as property. And how about the pervasive "holy wars," a lot of good potential targets out there.
But sadly to say, the Bible knows absolutely nothing about any inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If we want our government to be in line with "God's standards," we will have to delete these pagan concepts.
Grace is now our authoritative guidance. End of story. Law (standards) and grace are pitted against each other as irreconcilable approaches to being put right with God. Grace, not the law, trains us to reject godless ways and worldly desires, and to willingly live by the One Rule of life: love your neighbor.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 8:24:05 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2551
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
God does not demand different punishments for different crimes.
You want to double-check that?
quote:
God demands forgiveness.
Forgiveness and punishment are not mutually exclusive.
quote:
We live in a spiritual realm,
We still live on earth, too.
quote:
that is the point of the New Covenant.
The Old Covenant acknowledges spirituality as well.
quote:
Those "standards" were not God's ideal of justice for humanity, Jesus Christ is that ideal.
Killing his own son was God's ideal?
What do you call the first few thousand years of humanity? A mistake? A trial run?
quote:
Through him we have mercy.
We have always had mercy.
quote:
We are to live and move have our being in him and allow the Holy Spirit to renew us in that image, not follow abolished standards that were used as abject lessons.
You mean, the same Holy Spirit that inspire the writings of those perfect standards? He leads us away from them?
What happened to "God does not change?"
quote:
Those standards are gone, gone, gone.
False.
quote:
Yet if you want stoning, marriage throughout most of this book of "God's standards" allowed for polygamy and even concubines.
This is what is known as a "red herring."
But, if I must play along with it, polygamy and concubines were not commands of God. He put restrictions on cultural norms.
Stoning was a command.
quote:
"God's standards" allows for and occasionally commands slavery.
Citation?
quote:
And we can go back to treating women as property.
Citation?
quote:
And how about the pervasive "holy wars," a lot of good potential targets out there.
Just red herring after red herring.
quote:
But sadly to say, the Bible knows absolutely nothing about any inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Yeah? You don't say...
quote:
If we want our government to be in line with "God's standards," we will have to delete these pagan concepts.
And just trust our instincts. Gotcha.
quote:
Grace is now our authoritative guidance. End of story.
Clearly not.
quote:
Law (standards) and grace are pitted against each other
False.
quote:
as irreconcilable approaches to being put right with God.
Also, not the purpose of standards.
quote:
Grace, not the law, trains us to reject godless ways and worldly desires, and to willingly live by the One Rule of life: love your neighbor.
Really? Because . . . I mean, that's what the Torah says, too.
In fact, "love your neighbor" comes straight out of Torah.
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rawr.ben
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 9:00:46 PM
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didymus101
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rawr.ben, you take a few of my statements and create out of them a false dichotomy. This happens quite a bit by a few people on this forum.
I think you know that I know we are still on earth. We are in the world but not of the world. That is Scripture.
I think you know that I know forgiveness of sins means they are gone and forgotten--no spiritual punishment. On earth, it is different. In the physical kingdom of Israel, there was to be physical consequences.
I have no idea what you mean by red herring and if you do not know about the other standards I mentioned, I would suggest a concordance.
The standards of the OT are no longer a rule of life or instruments of justice for Christians. I could cite practically the whole NT to drive home that obvious point.
I am sorry but I have been over and over this so many times. Some see it and others do not.
Am I right? I believe Scripture thoroughly backs up what I am saying. I also feel that I have been sufficiently clear enough for you to understand and as you still disagree, I see little point in continuing.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 9:08:02 PM
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rawr.ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
The standards of the OT are no longer a rule of life or instruments of justice for Christians. I could cite practically the whole NT to drive home that obvious point.
You could, but you would cite it out of context, with many presuppositions.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 10:22:18 PM
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didymus101
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rawr.ben, pretend that you are talking with a man of good intelligence, a sincere love of God, and over forty years of studying the Bible and being an active Christian. Pretend that I am not some young and impetuous imp with a hidden agenda and an axe to grind with the Church who knows little or nothing about Scripture. Pretend that I am a man who has read extensively on this topic, both the pros and the cons, and believe I am spirit-led to the conclusions I have put forth. I ask this because it fits reality. I mention it because I have a question for you.
But before that I suppose I need to thank you. You are the first person in regards to this topic that has remained civil. I deeply appreciate that.
How do you support, in the NT, following the law or standards, and if you extract a verse or two, should I consider that being out of context?
How do you interpret
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 10:39:18 PM
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didymus101
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I am not directly or indirectly addressing this observation toward anyone on this thread. It has simply been my lifelong expereince (which is considerable) that these three subjects are the ones most avidly supported by Christians: hitting children, going to war, and killing offenders. The most intense arguments I have witnessed have been over these topics by those Christians advocating those three courses of action. An oblique curiosity dealing with this thread.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 10:48:12 PM
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didymus101
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rawr.ben, I have been debating which of twenty-three verses I'd like you to comment on. Eph2:15 has won out. What is your gist? You can, of course, read what came before and comes after, and even all eph.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 11:16:50 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2551
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
rawr.ben, I have been debating which of twenty-three verses I'd like you to comment on. Eph2:15 has won out. What is your gist? You can, of course, read what came before and comes after, and even all eph.
The NASB translates Ephesians 2:14-15:
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the
barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the
Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the
two into one new man, thus establishing peace.
The other modern translations give the same perspective:
For He himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the
barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its
commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man
out of the two, thus making peace, [NIV]
For he is our peace; in his flesh he has made both groups into one and has broken
down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us. He has abolished the
law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one
new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, [NRSV]
Taken at face value, these translations present the text as a pointed assertion by the apostle Paul that Mashiach abolished the Mosaic Law by His sacrificial death, and that the Law was the instrument of hostility which erected a dividing wall between Jew and Gentile. The difficulty with such a reading is twofold: first, it contradicts the clear teaching of Yeshua Himself that He did
not abolish the written Law,2and secondly, the written Torah never demanded a wall between Jew and Gentile.
This is from Tim Hegg:
quote:
First, the wall spoken of by
Paul in Eph 2:14 was not the dividing wall in the 2nd Temple, because (a) it
was still standing at the time Paul wrote Ephesians, and (b) the terminology
Paul uses to describe the wall is different than the terms regularly used for the
dividing wall in the Temple, terms Paul no doubt was familiar with.
Secondly, the Greek term fragmo" (fragmos) was used in the 1st Century to
identify the oral Torah as a “wall” or “fence” around the written Torah, and
the Pharisees as “builders of the wall”.
Thirdly, aspects of the oral Torah, not the written Torah, laid the
foundation for a strict separation between Jew and non-Jew.
What I am suggesting is simply that the dividing wall which was
abolished by Mashiach was none other than those Rabbinic laws which had
enforced a separation between Jew and Gentile in opposition to the written
Torah. In fact, the Tanakh gives very clear instructions against erecting
barriers to separate Israel from the nations. The foreigner who desired to
worship the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was to be welcomed into the
community and treated with the same respect as was given the native born
(Ex. 22:21; 23:9; Lev. 19:33, 34; 25:35; Deut. 26:12). They were to be given full
participation in matters of Torah and Torah-life (Sabbath, Ex. 23:12, cp. Is.
56:3ff; Gleanings, Lev. 19:10; Justice, Ex. 12:49; Lev. 24:22; Festivals, Deut. 16:11,
14; Worship and Prayer in the Temple, 1 Ki. 8:41-43, cp. 2 Chron. 6:32,33). And
the prophets pronounce judgment upon any who would neglect their G-d-
given responsibilities to the “stranger”, on the same grounds as neglect of
orphans and widows (Ps. 94:6; Is. 56:3ff; Jer. 22:3; Zech. 7:10).
If you want, I can go into much more detail, including breaking down of actual words used here, if you wish.
Basically, the verse is speaking against the traditions that said that a Jew could not associate with a Gentile.
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rawr.ben
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 11:19:51 PM
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makarizo
Posts: 2220
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
God demands forgiveness.
amen.... Eph 4:31 & 32!!!
quote:
rawr-ben
Forgiveness and punishment are not mutually exclusive.
but as a follower of Christ, where are we (as believers) instructed to punish somebody......anybody? (are yo going to mention disciplining children?)
is it ever acceptable to cry "justice not mercy"?....... when a follower of Christ cries out "justice not mercy" does it ever come from the Holy Spirit?
quote:
We still live on earth, too.
this is true
2 cor 5:20....... we are therfore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making His appeal through us, We implore you on Christ's behalf Be reconciled to God
John 8:23 You are from below, I am from above, you are of this world, I am not of this world
2 cor 5:17 " if you are in Christ, you are a new creation. Old things have passed away, behold all things become new.
quote:
The Old Covenant acknowledges spirituality as well.
true.... acknowledged before the veil was torn from top to bottom (Mark 15:38)
Gal 3:10 "for as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse..........
2 Cor 3:17 where the Sirit of the Lord is, there is liberty
quote:
We have always had mercy.
amen
&
James 2:12 & 13 "So speak and act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty..... for judgment will be withought mercy to anyone who has shown no mercy...... mercy triumphs over judgement.
(not sure if I quoted that one exact)
quote:
the standards are gone gone gone
False
in the light of Romans 7, and the book of Galatians.......what is the exact thought behind that?
the law is good because it showed me how evil I was.... I didn't know how evil I was until I saw the law.... but I now have an Advocate/Teacher Who lives inside me.
quote:
agapist
we want our government to be in line with "God's standards," we will have to delete these pagan concepts.
are you referring to capitol punishment?
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 11:22:26 PM
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rawr.ben
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I can only handle one question at a time, and we are leaking into a "keep the law" discussion. We already have a thread on that.
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rawr.ben
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 11:26:56 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
I can only handle one question at a time, and we are leaking into a "keep the law" discussion. We already have a thread on that.
if you look it up... you will see that this is also a red herring
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/30/2009 11:59:50 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 3086
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
quote:
but a legitimate death penalty is now the business of the state, not the Church.
True, and since Jesus is Lord, not guru, the State as well as the Church needs to honor Him as Lord. The Church is God's ministry of mercy, theState is God's ministry of justice. In a fallen world, we need both. And we have no right to abandon either to the other team.
I must disagree the "church" is the community and is held accountable for the actions within it. The state, as in an overarching government, was given to us only because we insisted on it, and Adonai warned us that we would regret that request.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/31/2009 12:19:34 AM >
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/31/2009 12:12:38 AM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2551
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
I can only handle one question at a time, and we are leaking into a "keep the law" discussion. We already have a thread on that.
if you look it up... you will see that this is also a red herring
And if you look up the thread dedicated to this type of discussion, you will see that I do post in there.
This isn't a red herring. This is moderating.
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rawr.ben
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/31/2009 8:14:59 AM
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leftwing
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dianetavegia
Sure but.... Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
beautiful answer to the question. Who was it that said this first?? let me think....
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/31/2009 10:44:08 AM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 1066
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From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
Let me get this straight ... are you saying that we are only supposed to extend love and grace to other Christians? I hope I am misunderstanding your point.
Well, the most loving thing we can do to a murderer is convict him of his crime, and impose the sentence God requires. Faced with the consequences of his deeds, the murderer may repent and find eternal life. Given a free pass, the murderer would come to regard his own life (and those of future victims) as inconsequential. Pointless. Meaningless. He would be hardened in his sins, and pushed -- by us -- into the eternal torments of hell.[1]
"Compassion" to crimes is merciless cruelty to the future victims of crimes -- and contempt for the God of the Bible.
[1] See the final scene in the movie Crimes and Misdemeanors. What would it mean if one could indeed get away with murder? "That my worst fears were realized," the nebbish answers.
< Message edited by RJR_fan -- 10/31/2009 12:07:50 PM >
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Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/31/2009 12:32:20 PM
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dbark
Posts: 382
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
quote:
Let me get this straight ... are you saying that we are only supposed to extend love and grace to other Christians? I hope I am misunderstanding your point.
Well, the most loving thing we can do to a murderer is convict him of his crime, and impose the sentence God requires. Faced with the consequences of his deeds, the murderer may repent and find eternal life. Given a free pass, the murderer would come to regard his own life (and those of future victims) as inconsequential. Pointless. Meaningless. He would be hardened in his sins, and pushed -- by us -- into the eternal torments of hell.[1]
"Compassion" to crimes is merciless cruelty to the future victims of crimes -- and contempt for the God of the Bible.
[1] See the final scene in the movie Crimes and Misdemeanors. What would it mean if one could indeed get away with murder? "That my worst fears were realized," the nebbish answers.
But nobody is suggesting "free passes". It's just that you don't think justice can be served without the death penalty, so you imply that anyone who doesn't agree with that view is soft on crime or something like that.
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"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/31/2009 3:51:34 PM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 1066
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quote:
It's just that you don't think justice can be served without the death penalty, so you imply that anyone who doesn't agree with that view is soft on crime or something like that.
Well, God and I agree that the death penalty is appropriate for capital crimes -- whereas caging human beings up like zoo animals is contrary to His Word. It was the Quakers, who tend to deny original sin and rely upon the soul's "inner light," who invented the penitentiary. Criminals locked up with their consciences in solitary confinement would, the Quakers believed, would get in touch with their inner light, repent, and become assets to society. What actually happened was -- these fallen creatures were such miserable company for themselves that they emerged from the experiment insane! But by then, the buildings were up, the staff hired, so the failed program kept going.
The emphasis in the Bible, however, is not so much on vengeance as it is on RESTITUTION. No one owes a "debt to society." If I lawlessly take someone's life, I owe a debt to God. If I take someone's goods, my debt to God also includes an obligation to make my victim whole.
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