How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (Full Version)

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WanderingLamb -> How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/28/2009 2:48:05 AM)

Hi. I wasn't sure whether to put this in the Current Events folder or the Homosexuality One Stop Thread (sorry but I hate one stop threads!), but since this is really about my inner struggle, I decided to put it here. We have a Referendum Measure on our ballot in our state (WA, USA) for November 3. It is regarding gay marriage, although they're not technically calling it that. My dillemna is this: while I belileve that God hates homosexuality, I am not entirely comfortable with forcing my views on others.

At first I thought it was cut and dried: I would vote to not approve the measure to give homosexual couples *(see note) the same rights as married couples. I don't want to support gay marriage in any way. That would be like making a statement of legitimization or approval, right? But on the other hand, part of me wonders if it is right to keep their rights limited. I mean, aside from the fact that my vote counts very little in the scheme of things, and this was already approved until a coalition of us religious folk (I wasn't one of them) decided to get it put on the ballot, I know that my "opinion" about their lifestyle isn't going to change things one iota. I mean, if this does not pass, these gay couples aren't going to suddenly break up and go straight. Likewise, people who would not otherwise have been in a gay lifestyle wouldn't suddenly decide to marry their best same-gender friend (at least I don't think so!) So I was thinking about the fact that this is a free country; that God actually gave us all (not just in my country[;)]) the freedom to disobey Him - so who am I to try to take away that freedom?

Also, one person has said to me that gay marriage, or people living in a homosexual lifestyle, does not hurt others, so why have a law against it? It's not like murder - in fact this issue is not even in the ten commandments (unless you consider it to somehow break the law against adultery). But after thinking about that a while, I did think it could effect my children (through attitude changes and what is taught in school regarding the law), and it also effects the children of anyone in a gay partnership. But would this new law really change anything in that regard, compared to the status quo? (I know opponents of the measure say it will, but I don't see how - I only see that as a scare tactic) It only gives more rights to those already in that lifestyle. But I disagree that a homosexual lifestyle does not hurt those involved in it. Because I believe it is sinful, I believe it is harmful and unfulfilling (of course I don't know this from personal experience - I just take it on faith). But I can't shake the feeling that voting against gay marriage is sticking my nose in other people's business. So I was trying to think of something to compare it to...something that God says is sinful, but public opinion disagrees, something that does not directly hurt those not involved....But I couldn't quite find something to compare it to. Maybe gambling? Maybe porn? I don't know.

I was also thinking about the Golden Rule. I personally know a few gay men. How would they feel if they knew I voted against them being able to go to the hospital when their partner is dying?

I guess my point is, I don't see how witholding such rights from these registered same-sex couples is going to change anything about the problem of homosexuality. I mean, if we were talking about allowing such a thing in a church, there would be no question, I would be totally against it (in fact I know of some churches that do affirm homosexuality), but when we're talking about the general public, it just gets murky. I mean I'm totally against gay bashing and hate crimes! But at what point does the principle change from "do unto others..." to "hold back the moral decay of our society"?

Thanks for reading my long post. I hope some of you have some helpful insights.

I also hope that this will not turn into a debate thread. There are enough of those already.

*(and non-married partners of the opposite sex, with one over the age of 65, I think - I know, why are they singled out?)



VOLume -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/28/2009 7:48:26 AM)

Well, just know there's at least ONE Yella-Dog Demacrat out here that knows how you feel! ;)



McFatty -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/28/2009 7:52:06 AM)

I'm liberal on quite a few issues... but when it comes down to it, I will never vote for a candidate who will help make it easier to murder unborn children. I could agree with them on every single other issue and disagree with their opponent on every single other issue. I would still vote for their opponent.



kd4hvz -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/28/2009 8:03:22 AM)

I vote with the understanding that things are not always black or white, right or wrong.

Sometimes one good thing trumps another.



Ohioman1972 -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/28/2009 8:17:08 AM)

There are laws in this land. Laws are written and overwritten because views change. I understand your dilemma. I don't like to force my views on others, but in this case, the opposition's views are being forced on me, and everyone else who views marriage as one man and one woman.
I doubt I would support a law forbidding a homosexual lifestyle, but I will not support a law that breaks the moral fabric of what God called marriage to be.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/28/2009 8:30:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb

Hi. We have a Referendum Measure on our ballot in our state (WA, USA) for November 3. It is regarding gay marriage, although they're not technically calling it that.
My dillemna is this: while I belileve that God hates homosexuality, I am not entirely comfortable with forcing my views on others.




God hates the SIN of homosexuality and if one is not entirely comfortable with forcing thier views on others. ... then use Gods view [8|]



LG



McFatty -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/28/2009 8:43:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy

quote:

ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb

Hi. We have a Referendum Measure on our ballot in our state (WA, USA) for November 3. It is regarding gay marriage, although they're not technically calling it that.
My dillemna is this: while I belileve that God hates homosexuality, I am not entirely comfortable with forcing my views on others.




God hates the SIN of homosexuality and if one is not entirely comfortable with forcing thier views on others. ... then use Gods view [8|]



LG


Yeah, forcing something on other people, rather than practicing the gentleness we're called to practice, is a great way to bring people to Christ... [8|]



LoyalGypsy -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/28/2009 10:17:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy

quote:

ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb

Hi. We have a Referendum Measure on our ballot in our state (WA, USA) for November 3. It is regarding gay marriage, although they're not technically calling it that.
My dillemna is this: while I belileve that God hates homosexuality, I am not entirely comfortable with forcing my views on others.




God hates the SIN of homosexuality and if one is not entirely comfortable with forcing thier views on others. ... then use Gods view [8|]



LG


Yeah, forcing something on other people, rather than practicing the gentleness we're called to practice, is a great way to bring people to Christ... [8|]


I know... thats why the BOLD print was used ...above.



LG



lightbeamrider -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/28/2009 12:12:46 PM)

It all depends on what is considered the loving thing to do in these situations. In our culture it is normal for men and women to move in together and live as husband and wife without being married but biblically this is fornication. Immoral things take on a normal quality and if practiced enough, they become accepted as part of life. Even if homosexuality was a victimless crime as implied by the op, (and i do not for one minute believe it is) the fact it is biblically reprehensible is reason enough to vote against it as a Christian. These people who are into sexual sin are really hurting themselves, each other and the culture they live in by flaunting the laws of God. They are hell bound creatures and under them circumstances the loving thing to do is tell them their circumstances and pray for them as described in Ezek. 33. The principal here being, if the watchman does not warn the wicked then the blood of the wicked will be on the head of the watchman. The watchman has to warn the wicked. It is the only loving thing to do. It is a big part of the Christian life.

One is better off in the long run to be kicked in the head with the truth as opposed to be kissed with the lies and deceptions of the enemy.



TMeeks -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/28/2009 2:08:52 PM)

If we understand the fact that the argument has been FRAMED as 'forcing our views on others' then it makes it easier to vote with your own convictions. The reason why the question has been framed in this fashion is to control the debate and obfuscate the bigger issues.

First, EVERYTHING we vote on ends up forcing SOMEBODY'S view on others. Consider the personal impact of smoking bans, recycling, roads, environmental laws, toilet flush capacities, auto emissions... etc. Every one of them pitted people's views against each other. That is just the nature of politics.

What you are REALLY voting for has to do with the nature of the society in which you are going to live. It doesn't matter if a person is a Christian or not. When we are encouraged to live outside the boundaries that God has prescribed for a fulfilled life, then something dies... either in our hearts or in our relationships around us. And, that can be said for societies. Those that rebel bring all forms of death on themselves and their people. Those that conform to the revelation of God, even if they do not know it, benefit from that conformation.

The gay marriage question isn't the big issue. It is an artifact of an even bigger problem. And, that is our utter distain for the sanctity of marriage between one man and one woman for as long as they live. That breakdown led to this next step in the direction away from those command God gave us for our good. Remember, God is as adamant against adultary and fornication as He is against homosexual behaviour. But, it is HE HIMSELF that made Adam and Eve, forming the first family and patterning the structure of that Family in a very clear way.

My choice, as a person that believes that God gives us his laws to HELP us and not hurt us, would be to vote in a way that reflects a desire to keep our society as close to those precepts as possible.... helping ALL society in the process.



TMeeks -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/28/2009 2:21:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
God hates the SIN of homosexuality and if one is not entirely comfortable with forcing thier views on others. ... then use Gods view [8|]
LG

Yeah, forcing something on other people, rather than practicing the gentleness we're called to practice, is a great way to bring people to Christ... [8|]

Think about it for a minute.

How long has it been the majority view that marriage is between a man and a woman?

Hmmm... at least 7000+ years! Since CREATION... however long that has been!

In how many DIFFERENT cultures has this been the ONLY accepted norm?

Hmm... ALL of these world's societies! This includes both primitive tribes and all of the major civilized societies.

How long have we been PUSHED to accept a DIFFERENT standard for marriage?

10 years? 20 years? OK. Let's say 50 years?

So, for .7% of the existence of mankind we've been pushed to ACCEPT THE VALIDITY OF GAY MARRIAGE. Contrasted to 99.3% of the entire history of mankind where EVERY culture on earth has accepted marriage as between a man and a woman.

So, just WHO is trying to force THEIR VIEWS on who?



McFatty -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/28/2009 2:37:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
God hates the SIN of homosexuality and if one is not entirely comfortable with forcing thier views on others. ... then use Gods view [8|]
LG

Yeah, forcing something on other people, rather than practicing the gentleness we're called to practice, is a great way to bring people to Christ... [8|]

Think about it for a minute.

How long has it been the majority view that marriage is between a man and a woman?

Hmmm... at least 7000+ years! Since CREATION... however long that has been!

In how many DIFFERENT cultures has this been the ONLY accepted norm?

Hmm... ALL of these world's societies! This includes both primitive tribes and all of the major civilized societies.

How long have we been PUSHED to accept a DIFFERENT standard for marriage?

10 years? 20 years? OK. Let's say 50 years?

So, for .7% of the existence of mankind we've been pushed to ACCEPT THE VALIDITY OF GAY MARRIAGE. Contrasted to 99.3% of the entire history of mankind where EVERY culture on earth has accepted marriage as between a man and a woman.

So, just WHO is trying to force THEIR VIEWS on who?


Marriage is not the only issue in the world...

I could actually care less about that issue. I'm not going to marry a man. I'll let the gays do what they want. It doesn't affect me. However, forcing a culture, regardless of that culture's relative newness, to do what "we" want them to will only stir more rebellion and push them further from Christ than they already are. Why do we not show love for these people trapped in this temptation?



LoyalGypsy -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/28/2009 6:09:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
God hates the SIN of homosexuality and if one is not entirely comfortable with forcing thier views on others. ... then use Gods view [8|]
LG

Yeah, forcing something on other people, rather than practicing the gentleness we're called to practice, is a great way to bring people to Christ... [8|]

Think about it for a minute.

How long has it been the majority view that marriage is between a man and a woman?

Hmmm... at least 7000+ years! Since CREATION... however long that has been!

In how many DIFFERENT cultures has this been the ONLY accepted norm?

Hmm... ALL of these world's societies! This includes both primitive tribes and all of the major civilized societies.

How long have we been PUSHED to accept a DIFFERENT standard for marriage?

10 years? 20 years? OK. Let's say 50 years?

So, for .7% of the existence of mankind we've been pushed to ACCEPT THE VALIDITY OF GAY MARRIAGE. Contrasted to 99.3% of the entire history of mankind where EVERY culture on earth has accepted marriage as between a man and a woman.

So, just WHO is trying to force THEIR VIEWS on who?


Marriage is not the only issue in the world...

I could actually care less about that issue. I'm not going to marry a man. I'll let the gays do what they want. It doesn't affect me. However, forcing a culture, regardless of that culture's relative newness, to do what "we" want them to will only stir more rebellion and push them further from Christ than they already are. Why do we not show love for these people trapped in this temptation?



Greetings

quote:

Why do we not show love for these people trapped in this temptation


What form of Love are you speaking of...
The kind that encourages their sin… or the kind that informs them of it…= the same as we all heard before we found Jesus?

John 15:22 - Show Context
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have “no excuse” for their sin.

Jesus said above that… IF ... I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin,
….this is exactly what their agendas are about... that they seem to believe that if they can shut up the Church and any mention of Jesus Christ THIER redeemer… that they would have no SIN.

But that does not ward off their pending doom, God is always in charge regardless, simply shutting up Jesus Christ will not change what is written.
Mt 24:35 - Show Context
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

If there is anytime in history that the gays should be seeking sanctuary in the word of God … it is right NOW!




LG



McFatty -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/28/2009 6:14:15 PM)

When did I say to encourage sin?

If you think the best way to bring obviously rebellious people to God is to legislate against their chosen rebellion, I'd suggest rethinking. There are other ways to go about it than to stir up their rebellion even more. Gentle evangelism.



davelinde -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/28/2009 8:50:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty
There are other ways to go about it than to stir up their rebellion even more. Gentle evangelism.


But redefine their chosen sin as an individual right and then redefine marriage to align with a particular perversion, all PROTECTED by our system of law? I guess my conscience is not conflicted about this. Appeasement is no evangelical strategy that can be extended very far.

Go ahead... ignore this, passively encourage it. It's already the status quo being taught IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL. If the marriage barrier is erased it will become normalized, encouraged and celebrated. Come to think of it, maybe it's too late already.



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/29/2009 10:31:18 PM)

....Actually, we live in a democracy (for those who live in the USA) and so we have a right in this country to vote as we please. We have the right as citizens to vote for a law that we prefer. In some places (and perhaps one day in this country) that right is not always availeable. The option to vote for some piece of legislation indicates that according to your own viewpoint you may vote as you see fit. That is what everyone will be doing when they go to the ballot in Nov. So you have a right to vote the way you believe. Not whether what you believe is right or not. We use God's word to determine whether what we believe is right or not. In a democracy that is not the case. In a democracy you have the right to vote for a measure based simply on what you believe. That's it. So, first you have to know what you believe and whether it squares with scripture. Then you have the right to vote on it because the laws of this particular nation give you that option.



Walker311 -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/29/2009 10:49:49 PM)

My rights as a Christian American are gone. I get "rights" shoved down my throat all the time. I can't even watch Flashforward... a new show on ABC without two women kissing and slobbering all over each other.

As for voting our conscience... it should line up with what Christ taught. Christian apathy seems to be an accepted view now days and most so-called Christians do not even realize that their beliefs are so watered down, they could fit right in with any pagen.

So what should I do when I am confronted with blatant sin? Do I analyze and choose a safe or middle of the road view or do I call a spade a spade?



CMT8808 -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/29/2009 11:17:44 PM)

Wandering~
My simple two cents is this: A homosexual if they live together can have health insurance with their said partner because they are, however a hetersexual can not cover his g/f or b/f on their policy because they are not married.
This in mho unfair practice and why do these sinners get a priviledge that is not extended to other sinner who choose to be hetersexual?
So if you are gay and live with a partner you get healthcare, if you marry that parnter you get coverage, BUT if you are hetersexual you Do Not get coverage unless you are married to said person.
Hmmm sounds like a double standard to me!

Either way they are covered, but I do not think they are covered in the way they should be, and that's by the Blood
CMT



WanderingLamb -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/30/2009 2:48:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CMT8808

Wandering~
My simple two cents is this: A homosexual if they live together can have health insurance with their said partner because they are, however a hetersexual can not cover his g/f or b/f on their policy because they are not married.
This in mho unfair practice and why do these sinners get a priviledge that is not extended to other sinner who choose to be hetersexual?
So if you are gay and live with a partner you get healthcare, if you marry that parnter you get coverage, BUT if you are hetersexual you Do Not get coverage unless you are married to said person.
Hmmm sounds like a double standard to me!

Either way they are covered, but I do not think they are covered in the way they should be, and that's by the Blood
CMT


Good point, CMT. Good points everyone. Thanks for writing. Just to clarify, the "same-sex-partners" that would be affected are those who have officially "registered" as partners. I don't know if heterosexual partners can do that too, but I know if one of the partners is over 60 or 65, then they can register. I don't know why they draw the line there, but whatever. The point is, there is some degree of commitment involved because once they register, they would have to officially "dissolve" their partnership through the state if they wish to "break up"



RJR_fan -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/30/2009 8:03:17 AM)

Shortly after the wall came down, a fire at the East German secret police office, the "stasi" HQ, destroyed a lot of the records.

Shortly after WW II ended, it was really hard to find Nazis in Germany.

When God finishes dealing with our country's current major insults to His majesty, our wanton and unrestrained slaught of His tiny image-bearers, it will be very hard to find Christians who will admit to having been supporters of the party of slaughter.

Hitler helped his nation triumph over fiscal depression, after all. And Mussolini made the trains run on time. Earthly "benefits" matter more than heaven's morality, right?



laura... -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/30/2009 12:40:23 PM)

It's really quite simple. If you don't want same-sex marriage to be legal -- vote "no". If you do want same sex marriage to be legal -- vote "yes". You are not forcing your own personal view on anybody. The majority is.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/30/2009 1:12:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McFatty

When did I say to encourage sin?

If you think the best way to bring obviously rebellious people to God is to legislate against their chosen rebellion, I'd suggest rethinking. There are other ways to go about it than to stir up their rebellion even more. Gentle evangelism.



Greetings,



I didn’t say you encouraged sin.. I asked... What form of Love are you speaking of...?

quote:

If you think the best way to bring obviously rebellious people to God is to legislate against their chosen rebellion, I'd suggest rethinking.


Speaking for myself…
….the way the Word has been given to me is to leave no room for rethinking based on one feelings; for what is given to me to say from the Word… I just say it... otherwise if I re-think it... I could lose the reward

quote:

If you think the best way to bring obviously rebellious people to God is to legislate against their chosen rebellion,

….From what I still remember before I was saved (which is not much; being I no longer remember what is was like having those feelings attached to the ways of the world)
…BUT it is common knowledge as with any addiction, that the more someone says no, the more we want to do it.
....And that is the way it is supposed to be…
Heb 10:31 - Show Context
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God

Because it brings anyone, the same as it is did me, to the breaking point of the rebellion… and if we are not doing our jobs… but begin voting "our" conscience ….they… WILL BE lost forever.


And none of this above or below is not directed at you… it’s just a statement in general





LG



KaptZ -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/30/2009 1:35:47 PM)

LAMB-

You say you know some gay men? Are they friends or just casual acquaintances? What I mean is, do you like them? Do you care about them? In your eyes are they 'good' people?

If so, then TALK to them. Hear them out. Then you might be able to make your decision.

Personally, I think the tipping point for me was thinking what it would be like to NOT be able to marry my wife. How would I feel? How would I live? That and seeing how happy and committed my friends are who are in gay/lesbian realtionships and how much 'marriage' means to them.

How, really, could I keep that from them and still look myself in the mirror every day?



LCannon -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/30/2009 1:57:47 PM)

Remember:The populace voting(casting an electoral vote)isn't(and wasn't)ever ordained by Eternity(1Samuel 8)however that doesn't absolve the voter from their responsibility to cast my vote in a well considered manner and in rare cases no vote.(In fact, early on just before the Civil War, the populace aren't allowed the vote, the House/Senate, executive and judiciary felt the populace, the great unwashed'; non-elite, weren't capable of governing themselves.) Creditable information is power in any facet of experience and it's easy to 'trust' the sources that we of view but truth is truth wherever one finds it and whomever says it.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: How to vote your conscience when your conscience is divided? (10/30/2009 2:31:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LCannon

Remember: The populace voting(casting an electoral vote)isn't(and wasn't)ever ordained by Eternity(1Samuel 8)however that doesn't absolve the voter from their responsibility to cast my vote in a well considered manner and in rare cases no vote.


That’s why the Lord of the scriptures presented Himself as our Sheppard, because truthfully our responsibility to cast a vote in a well considered manner are not the ways we cast votes,

I mean …even those who claim to be believers seem to have a hard time understanding the simple laws of this here universe that were given to us to understand ... thousands of years ago… when it was very quiet and very observable.

I mean ... talking about Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...
There were only 10 commands, not millions of laws written to justify millions of different feelings.




LG



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