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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/19/2009 2:15:48 AM
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agapist
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Thank you, maninalx. What ta_mosquito wrote is what I am talking about.
The topic is not pacifism, although that does enter obliquely. I thought my last two posts put this baby to rest. Lol, I guess not.
Every nation that has attacked and tried to tear down America was fought by patriots of those nations. To approve of patriotism is to approve of attack by those whose patriotism is based on principles different than ours. If we accept patriotism, we accept constant and admirable conflict.
How can we say love of an earthly government is good and then fight against that good of their patriotism? If we honor patriotism, we honor the interest of governments over the greater good of love of others and the peace of Christ. Isn't that plain?
Do you see the conundrum of backing patriotism? It as much promotes zeal for our country as it does the zeal of those who oppose us.
To approve of patriotism is, in effect, to approve of perpetual divisiveness and war.
To give the stamp of approval to patriotism is to promote what separates us as people. If we were allied in the love of God, every citizen of every nation committed to this one allegiance, would there be war? To be a patriot for a nation, with its earthly borders and interests, separates us from peaceful union in God.
When we say that patriotism is an attribute, we condone those whose love and zeal for their country may be diametrically opposed to ours. It will, under this aegis, always be patriot against patriot. If we did away with patriotism, a love of country, and supplanted it with a simple love of God, we would not opposed--ever. Their would not be borders to defend or special interests to promote other than what is best for all.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/19/2009 2:30:29 AM
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agapist
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Of course you can protest against all that I wrote with the claim that patriotism for American interests is superior to those of dictatorships, communists, and the state of Islam. But it is a fallicous argument. The topic is patriotism, right or wrong, sin or not. Why is their patriotism less than ours? We are taking patriotism as an attribute of godliness: does it qualify?
Yes, patriotism for one's homeland is acceptable--and that homeland is without borders and called the kingdom of God.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/19/2009 2:42:31 AM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Of course you can protest against all that I wrote with the claim that patriotism for American interests is superior to those of dictatorships, communists, and the state of Islam. But it is a fallicous argument. The topic is patriotism, right or wrong, sin or not. Why is their patriotism less than ours? We are taking patriotism as an attribute of godliness: does it qualify?
It is not a fallacious argument at all. Just because all nations have patriots doesn't mean all of them are equally right in what they support.
quote:
Yes, patriotism for one's homeland is acceptable--and that homeland is without borders and called the kingdom of God.
And what if God chooses to do something in His kingdom by using the governments to whom He delegates authority? What if God wants something done and it is your physical nation that He is using to do it? Something such as say, free the oppressed, liberate the prisoners, feed the hungry, minister to the widows, and spread the gospel?
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/20/2009 10:02:01 AM
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dance_with_god
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quote:
What if God wants something done and it is your physical nation that He is using to do it? Something such as say, free the oppressed, liberate the prisoners, feed the hungry, minister to the widows, and spread the gospel?
I would say, "Great!" I would then remind them that this does not come by way of the sword but a cross. That is, at least, if we are disciples of Jesus Christ.
Patriotism in the sense of loving one's country and being grateful for it is not sin in and of itself. It can, however, lead to nationalism and a devoted or unhealthy allegiance to the nation that begins to look like idolatry. It is one of the reasons I do not say the pledge of allegiance to the flag - our allegiance should be to Jesus Christ, Lord of lords - not to anything or anyone else.
< Message edited by dance_with_god -- 11/20/2009 10:14:07 AM >
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/20/2009 10:25:20 AM
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dance_with_god
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I choose to pledge my "love and devotion" to God, not a flag of any nation.
That is the sort of thing that drove John the Seer crazy in Revelation.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/20/2009 7:27:33 PM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dance_with_god
quote:
What if God wants something done and it is your physical nation that He is using to do it? Something such as say, free the oppressed, liberate the prisoners, feed the hungry, minister to the widows, and spread the gospel?
I would say, "Great!" I would then remind them that this does not come by way of the sword but a cross. That is, at least, if we are disciples of Jesus Christ.
That is an incorrect, or at least incomplete, statement. Go back and read my posts in which I provided quite a few examples from the Bible of God using earthly armies to accomplish his goals. Of course that doesn't mean that warfare is ALWAYS the answer, simply that He uses the sword when He needs to. I hate to break it to my pacifist brothers and sisters, but God isn't afraid to open up a giant can o' whoopin' when He feels like it. 
quote:
Patriotism in the sense of loving one's country and being grateful for it is not sin in and of itself. It can, however, lead to nationalism and a devoted or unhealthy allegiance to the nation that begins to look like idolatry. It is one of the reasons I do not say the pledge of allegiance to the flag - our allegiance should be to Jesus Christ, Lord of lords - not to anything or anyone else.
I agree completely with the first part, but don't reach the same conclusions as you do regarding the pledge. God made me as an American, God authorized and established the American government, God calls me to be an honorable citizen, so as long as the government isn't asking me to sin against God, I have no problem pledging my allegiance to the nation God gave me.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/20/2009 9:08:43 PM
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agapist
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Dance_with_God, I agree.
If in good conscience a Christain can go to war and kill men, women, and children, he must do so out of conscience, as directed by the Holy Spirit, and not because he loves his country. Such a love of country may be louder than the still, quiet voiced suggesting a different path. Through illumination of the spirit, not the possible propaganda of the state, we will learn if the cause is just, meaning if it is in God's interest and not just a nation's.
That God uses the ways of the world to accomplish his ends does not mean he approves of those ways and would not use another way if there were ten righteous men willing to put their love for Him above all else.
That God uses the established authority to do His bidding does not mean He approves of that government or that it is necessary for the Christian in an army to pledge allegiance to that country.
Through the blood of Christ, God made us a citizen of heaven--that is our country. Aagain, "we are not OF the world." Pledging our full allegiance to our homeland, the kingdom of God, assures we act in good conscience, while pledging to a worldly government does not. If you will follow a government up to the point where it might violate conscience, why not simply love God and obviate the danger. The love of God and like unto it the love of others is the best way to care for a nation.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/20/2009 9:26:48 PM
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agapist
Posts: 653
Joined: 6/13/2009
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The oft-quoted Romans 13 nowhere even suggests we "submit" to the governing authority out of patriotism. It also does not suggest that we are to submit by going to war for that country. The "sword" of justice is discernment and the word.
As Romans goes on to state, we submit from good conscience (not because the government says so) and follow the ONE RULE (which is our law): love of others...for love does NO HARM to its neighbor.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/20/2009 11:36:43 PM
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sue244
Posts: 528
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You are still creating a false either or situation.
Christians can and do love both God and Country, the only command is to love God more than anything else.
_____________________________
My country owes me nothing. It gave me, as it gives every boy and girl,
a chance. It gave me schooling, independence of action, opportunity for
service and honor.
Equal rights for all, special privileges for none.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/21/2009 1:05:54 AM
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agapist
Posts: 653
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Sue, if you had read my posts you would know that I see patriotism as dangerous and redundant. I cannot see how it serves good or the kingdom of God. Sole allegiance to the kingdom of God and love of others more than adequately work for the optimal well-being of a country.
God is very either/or. If you are a friend of the world, you are an enemy of God. Let you yes be yes and your no be no. For me, it seems extremely difficult to love a country and not be drawn into its worldly interests.
We all make either/or choices all the time. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with them. I do see it as either/or...for me. Just as when I have a choice between going left or right; going straight is not going to help. One gets me where I believe I need to go and the other does not. Simple.
I have said "this is how I see it." I have not said those who disagree are wrong or not Christian or sinning.
Do you think I take this stand without thought, without life experience, without Scripture? Up to the moment I feel I was convicted by the Holy Spirit with my perspective, none of you who see differently than I would hold a candle to what I would have said against me.
I am 62, which does not mean of and by itself that I have wisdom, just that I am not a new kid on the block. I have been devoted to Jesus, by circumstances there is no need to get into here, since I was seven. I volunteered for the draft, leaving a scholarship and the guaranteed safety of college to go to war. I am a husband, father, brother, grandfather and not some disenfrachized schmoo with an attitude. I have worked all my life and done fairly well. I and my entire extended family vote, go to church, and do our part in the community. Very American. But I see all this as gifts from God and not the blessings of America. All good gifts come from God, and is God I thank and honor for them.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/21/2009 1:16:35 AM
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sue244
Posts: 528
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From: Colorado
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I have read your post, I just disagree with your position.
You have not proved that Patriotism is a sin.
_____________________________
My country owes me nothing. It gave me, as it gives every boy and girl,
a chance. It gave me schooling, independence of action, opportunity for
service and honor.
Equal rights for all, special privileges for none.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/21/2009 2:33:23 AM
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agapist
Posts: 653
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: online
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Sue, obviously you have not read my posts. I did not set out to say patriotism is a sin. I have said any number of times that patriotism is not a sin. In the post you are responding to I also made that clear. And it is fine if you do not agree with my position that FOR ME, patriotism for an earthly government is a danger I do not need to explore any longer. Patriotism for America, or any country, does not give this country, or any country, anything more (and to me something far less) than sole allegiance to God and love of others. Others is all, the entire world. No boundaries. No borders. No Samaritans.
This is not an easy stance to take or maintain. I am, whether you believe it or not, human. I do not like being on the outside. I do not like all the things that are said about me because I feel convicted on this point. It has strained a number of close relationships and I have wanted to change my view. It is painful. Of course I may be wrong on my unyielding position on patriotism, as Paul finally admitted (twenty years later) about his stance on circumcision, but I am convicted. Perhaps this is a test of some sort by God. Maybe it is ego or pride. Maybe it is simply necessary for his ends for a season. I do not know for certain. My faith is in God. I feel God has revealed this to me, perhaps (for whatever reason) just for me in his purpose as he deals with me.
I feel I have offered it candidly for consideration. I have stated my side with passion, yes, but how else should I present it? Again, I accused no one of sinning by being a patriot for America. I, on the other hand, have been accused of many things for presenting my view. I only ask that when reading anyone's perspective on truth that we open fully to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/21/2009 2:36:13 AM
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agapist
Posts: 653
Joined: 6/13/2009
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Schmo (sorry, only one "o" or sometimes ending in an "e"): yiddish for fool. I can still feel that way even when I believe I am standing for truth.
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