|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/30/2009 8:03:12 AM
|
|
|
SonInMe1
Posts: 1831
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
|
People are people. They can multitask. If someone is a christian they can also be a patriot.
Its not an either or situation.
Think about it. You love God....you also love your spouse...your kids....your family. Is this stance that christians cannot be patriotic also mean we cannot love anyone but God?
God's authority for christians IS paramount. That does not mean we can have no other alliegences....and if christians do not take part of the governing of our country, there will be nothing to be patriotic about.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/30/2009 9:20:38 AM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 5750
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
People are people. They can multitask. If someone is a christian they can also be a patriot.
Its not an either or situation.
Think about it. You love God....you also love your spouse...your kids....your family. Is this stance that christians cannot be patriotic also mean we cannot love anyone but God?
God's authority for christians IS paramount. That does not mean we can have no other alliegences....and if christians do not take part of the governing of our country, there will be nothing to be patriotic about.
Amen and Amen.
_____________________________
Aufmerksamkeit: Es ist verboten, damit Qtman mit stummen Köpfen spricht.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/30/2009 11:55:17 AM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 2070
Status: offline
|
I think we are perhaps confused (and believe me, I can claim some authority on that  ), over what patriotism and love are or how we define them.
Harvie said So if I say I'm a patriotic American and I love and support my country, I'm (a) not loving my neighbor; (b) I'm ignoring my allegiance to God; and (c) I'm supporting the "goals of evil?"
To be patriotic IMO does not take allegiance away from God or support evil. It means that God has placed me in this country, a country made of people from many lands, and His desire is for me to love my neighbor next door as well as my neighbor across the globe (as it is within my power to do so) through the workings of this country and its leadership and policies. Our system is faulty because it is manmade.
But as Reinhold Niebuhr prayed, Lord, help me accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I should, and the wisdom to know the difference, I pray for our country.
My love for my country does not mean the same thing as my love for the Lord. We should, perhaps, use a different word.
But today I am wearing RED in honor of our service men and women who serve at home and abroad. Lord, bless them and protect them and let them know how thankful we are for them! 
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/30/2009 4:02:59 PM
|
|
|
didymus101
Posts: 1271
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
I know this is a touchy subject and may upset some people but a government is not a person with a soul. There is a distinct difference between loving your spouse, your kids, etc and loving the world. We are not to love worldly things. Government is a worldly thing, under the rule of Satan as it says throughout the OT and NT. If we are friends with these worldly things (never mind loving them), we are enemies of God.
If I am zealously on the side of my country's interest, I am going to be against others in the world who I am to consider, as God commanded, my neighbors. American economic interests are devastating to certain areas and they have been devastating to millions for a few hundred years. Am I to zealously support that? Capitalism is cruel, heartless.
As I see it, we cannot have other allegiances. We follow the ONE RULE of loving our neighbors, which completely covers our relationship to others and to government; our one and only allegiance is to the kingdom of God. Any other allegiances are, to me, serving two masters, which is wrong.
I am not saying we cannot pray for our troops, as long as our prayers are just as intense for the souls of those on the other side of their bayonets.
I was in the service, volunteered for the darft way back when and did what I considered my godly duty to the state. I could have stayed in college with a deferment. This felt wrong to me at the time. I had a very strong relationship with Jesus and went where I thought I was most needed. I had a strong peacemaker soul then. God arranged it so I did not once have to shot at the "enemy."
I just feel it is highly dangerous to the soul to be patriotic. Our loyalties can easily get confused. As Christians, our pride is not in being Americans but in being children of God. We are ambassadors of His kingdom and none other. Our public displays and the recesses of our heart are to always reflect strict allegiance to God and His word alone.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/30/2009 9:25:20 PM
|
|
|
SonInMe1
Posts: 1831
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
|
quote:
If I am zealously on the side of my country's interest, I am going to be against others in the world who I am to consider, as God commanded, my neighbors.
Your prejudice is showing. I am not sure its patriotism you are against or its patritotism for the USA.
quote:
There is a distinct difference between loving your spouse, your kids, etc and loving the world.
There are a few things wrong in this statement.
First when I said you can love God and love others it was to point out that we are able to put God first and still have other important things in our lives.
You love God first. You also love your spouse etc. Because you love your spouse does not mean you love God less.
Same with your country. You put God's authority first but that does not mean you cannot put importance or have patriotism for your country too.
It would be wrong to put more importance on your country than God, no doubt, but one can be patriotic and not put God on the back burner.
Thwe ideal that we can put importance on other things than God, and those things are considered worldly just because it isn't God is a misrepresentation. Your spouse is not God. Your house is not God. Your bills are not God. Food is not God.
Everything has its palce. Just because its not religious does not make it a sin.
To those who much was given, much is expected. We are given much in this country and we should react in a way to perserve that and protect that which was given to us by God. To not be patriotic or politically active as a christian flies in the face of good stewardship.
You were placed in a country where freedom is paramount. You can worship God in the manner of your choosing because of the blessings God has given us through the constitution and our acceptance of the responsibilities of the freedom guarenteed in that document.
To place your head in the sand and deny our political and patriotic responsibilities given to us by God through our constitution is to deny God's plan for us and our country.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/30/2009 9:57:55 PM
|
|
|
didymus101
Posts: 1271
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
Why can't some people just address the topic without having to insult, either directly or by innuendo. Soninme, my "prejudice is showing"? What are you hinting at? You imply I am against America. Why suggest something like that? I am addressing how I see Scripture and not how I view America. If you feel you need to report me under the so-called "Patriot" act feel free.
You say it is possible to love your country and God, I say it is not. Read Scripture on government. It is a worldly thing under the influence of Satan. Love that worldly thing and you are an enemy of God. It is that simple for me. The rest of what you had to say in rebuttal strayed far from the point and had no relevance to the discussion.
To be politically active flies in the face of God's kingdom.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/30/2009 10:48:13 PM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 2181
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
quote:
To be politically active flies in the face of God's kingdom.
What if one is being politically active for the sake of promoting and expanding justice?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/31/2009 12:25:13 AM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 2070
Status: offline
|
OK, agapist, I had a discussion with this over dinner with my husband. He sees it very much as you do. 
Yes, much of what is done is evil. Where you have people, you have evil. Nor do I believe in defending 'my' interests. But I certainly believe in helping the oppressed, those who are unable to defend themselves and I believe that is what God would have me do. Our country has done that over and over again. And certainly our loyalties become muddled and 'our' interests become a part of all.
On the individual level, it is a constant challenge to die to self. So when you are operating as a government responsible for many, is it even possible? I don't know.
But I do know that, for example, while I do not believe in 'self' defense, I would defend others against evildoers. I want to believe that is what my country is desiring (and imperfectly doing) as well.
And so we must pray. Pray for ourselves. Pray for our leaders. Pray for the salvation of others. The needs are endless.
A young man from our church just returned from Iraq. When I greeted him on Sunday, I thanked him for what he is doing for our country. I feel genuine thankfulness that young men and women (and all men and women) are willing to serve and defend the rights of others. Yes, it is a godly thing when that is our intent.
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/31/2009 4:04:14 AM
|
|
|
didymus101
Posts: 1271
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
Liveloved, This country has , predominantly, hurt and oppressed people, and continues to do so in the interest of the bottom line: profit. It cares nothing for people. Please, look at the history of America: slavery, sweatshops, genecide, company stores, child labor, segregation, manifest destiny, and the list is nearly endless of the abuses. We defeated an obviously evil ruler in WWII--and all the sins of this government are, not forgiven for they were not recognized, overlooked.
Believe me, I was a zealot for this country. I was raised on John Wayne. I always wore some part of blue since I was seven to commerate the North.
I volunteered for the draft and went to Viet Nam right at the Tet offensive.
I love the song "God bless America."
But I have reluctantly found that America is just another worldly power under the influence of Satan. Owie!
I hate bringing up this topic. All my extended family are star-spangled types. My daughter thinks of me a little more tolerantly: I am just old and have nothing to lose...so why not be odd.
Every point I made was out of compassion
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/31/2009 6:03:00 AM
|
|
|
ManimalX
Posts: 2849
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
It is foolish to love our "enemies" especially the likes of jihadist terrorist but that is what the foolishness of God demands.
To love our "enemies" is not the opposite of praying for or supporting our troops. But our prayers are to be for the souls of the terrorists as well. Prayer is the most powerful weapon we have. To deny prayer to the "enemy" puts our troops at risk.
Hate is not the answer. Our loyalty is to the kingdom of heaven. There are no earthly borders to it.
agapist,
As usual, your lofty rhetoric comes with no real-world application. Member after member points this out to you in thread after thread, but you just keep on chugging along with no answer to the question: "WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE IN REAL LIFE?"
Love and prayer are great! We are called to exemplify both! But "love" also includes punishing the wicked, and "prayers" sometimes have to be for enemies to be dashed to pieces! If I have devoted myself to ten years of daily prayer for the salvation of Muslim extremists and protection from them, when they still come to my doorstep and want to decapitate my wife and sons for not worshiping their demonic god, they will get a brain-pan full of buckshot. It would be EVIL for me to allow EVIL to have its way.
How exactly does "love" and "prayer" respond when IDOL WORSHIPING MUSLIM TERRORISTS show up at our docks and airports with bombs and guns and rusty knives that thirst for the bloody necks of the Infidel? When they come and start sawing the head off of your mom, off of your wife, off of you children, and off of you, what is your response? "Oh lord please help them have good fluffy love feelings and let them start thinking about unicorns, rainbows, and candycorn"?
Want to know what is more evil than those who would destroy those inalienable rights given to humanity by it's Creator? Those who who stand weakly by and avert their eyes and chant to themselves that "everyting gonna be alright, mon", those who physically do nothing to stop evil when evil is done.
And the whole, "it is a myth that America is a Christian nation" is an ignorant argument that relies on extremely revisionist history.
To all:
In the history of the world, there has never been a greater national source of justice, mercy, liberty, or love on a global scale than the United States of America. Don't forget, that also and primarily includes the proclamation of the gospel to the entire world and into virtually every known language on the globe.
Does that mean we are perfect? No. The USA has done some sorrowful things. But there is still no better example throughout history of a God-fearing people who have done more to promote the principles of justice, mercy, liberty, charity, and love than that which has been provided by the United States of America.
There are three different kinds of Americans: those pessimists who can only pick out a few faults and try to undermine an otherwise great nation, the selfish neurtralists who are only interested in what is best for them, and those patriotic optimists who see the faults and try to correct them so as to continue molding this nation into a better and better one.
God bless America. 
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/31/2009 7:21:39 AM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 5750
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
It is foolish to love our "enemies" especially the likes of jihadist terrorist but that is what the foolishness of God demands.
To love our "enemies" is not the opposite of praying for or supporting our troops. But our prayers are to be for the souls of the terrorists as well. Prayer is the most powerful weapon we have. To deny prayer to the "enemy" puts our troops at risk.
Hate is not the answer. Our loyalty is to the kingdom of heaven. There are no earthly borders to it.
agapist,
As usual, your lofty rhetoric comes with no real-world application. Member after member points this out to you in thread after thread, but you just keep on chugging along with no answer to the question: "WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE IN REAL LIFE?"
Love and prayer are great! We are called to exemplify both! But "love" also includes punishing the wicked, and "prayers" sometimes have to be for enemies to be dashed to pieces! If I have devoted myself to ten years of daily prayer for the salvation of Muslim extremists and protection from them, when they still come to my doorstep and want to decapitate my wife and sons for not worshiping their demonic god, they will get a brain-pan full of buckshot. It would be EVIL for me to allow EVIL to have its way.
How exactly does "love" and "prayer" respond when IDOL WORSHIPING MUSLIM TERRORISTS show up at our docks and airports with bombs and guns and rusty knives that thirst for the bloody necks of the Infidel? When they come and start sawing the head off of your mom, off of your wife, off of you children, and off of you, what is your response? "Oh lord please help them have good fluffy love feelings and let them start thinking about unicorns, rainbows, and candycorn"?
Want to know what is more evil than those who would destroy those inalienable rights given to humanity by it's Creator? Those who who stand weakly by and avert their eyes and chant to themselves that "everyting gonna be alright, mon", those who physically do nothing to stop evil when evil is done.
And the whole, "it is a myth that America is a Christian nation" is an ignorant argument that relies on extremely revisionist history.
To all:
In the history of the world, there has never been a greater national source of justice, mercy, liberty, or love on a global scale than the United States of America. Don't forget, that also and primarily includes the proclamation of the gospel to the entire world and into virtually every known language on the globe.
Does that mean we are perfect? No. The USA has done some sorrowful things. But there is still no better example throughout history of a God-fearing people who have done more to promote the principles of justice, mercy, liberty, charity, and love than that which has been provided by the United States of America.
There are three different kinds of Americans: those pessimists who can only pick out a few faults and try to undermine an otherwise great nation, the selfish neurtralists who are only interested in what is best for them, and those patriotic optimists who see the faults and try to correct them so as to continue molding this nation into a better and better one.
God bless America.
Very well said.
_____________________________
Aufmerksamkeit: Es ist verboten, damit Qtman mit stummen Köpfen spricht.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/31/2009 7:48:04 AM
|
|
|
RJR_fan
Posts: 1069
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
Status: offline
|
quote:
All governments, without exception, are under Satan.
Spoken like a true antinomian. National government is satanic. Church government is satanic. Family government is satanic. Self-government is satanic. No exceptions, right? The only "government" that remains is the urge of the moment, as perceived as emanating from some kind of mythical "Jesus" Who holds His own word in contempt.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/31/2009 7:58:36 AM
|
|
|
SonInMe1
Posts: 1831
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
|
quote:
Soninme, my "prejudice is showing"? What are you hinting at?
Just what I quoted....there are other hints in your post as this...
quote:
American economic interests are devastating to certain areas and they have been devastating to millions for a few hundred years. Am I to zealously support that? Capitalism is cruel, heartless.
quote:
This country has , predominantly, hurt and oppressed people, and continues to do so in the interest of the bottom line: profit.
quote:
Please, look at the history of America: slavery, sweatshops, genecide, company stores, child labor, segregation, manifest destiny, and the list is nearly endless of the abuses.
You are prejudiced against America. Your insistance that we should not be patriotic seems to be targeted only at american patriotism.
quote:
If you feel you need to report me under the so-called "Patriot" act feel free.
I have no data as to wether or not you are a terrorist nor have I suggested it. The Patriot Act is about terrorism, not ideological differences. A little paranoid are we?
quote:
You say it is possible to love your country and God, I say it is not.
If you love your country more than God, its an idol. If you love your country but love God first and more, then it is in its proper place. I don't see any logical flaw in that.
quote:
Read Scripture on government.
First of all the bible addresses kings. It does not address republics as we have today in America...where WE govern through representation and voting and by being politically active. Since its your position, I think, that we should neither be politically active or patriostic, you may be right that the government is some form of kingship to you since you do not participate in your responsibilities to your fellow american by expressing your view politically.
Do...you vote? If you do then you are participating in this "worldly satanic government".
quote:
It is a worldly thing under the influence of Satan
You mean the authority placed over us by God? You mean the government we are to obey, scripturally? I would really like to see the scripture that clearly calls governments from satan.
quote:
To be politically active flies in the face of God's kingdom.
So, changing Jim Crow laws was satanic? Ending slavery was satanic? All government charities satanic? Speeding laws? Zoning laws? Food quality? Roads? Budgets?
How do you define stewardship? Being free means you have more responsibilities. Christ set us free so we can help other people and keep innocents from harm. Having no christian influence upon our government will result in socialist marxist disastor and causing harm to many people.
Faith without works is dead.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/31/2009 8:12:42 AM
|
|
|
ManimalX
Posts: 2849
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Liveloved, This country has , predominantly, hurt and oppressed people, and continues to do so in the interest of the bottom line: profit.
Did someone sell you a misprinted set of encyclopedias, or what? Do you live in the same world as the rest of us? Or is it that you have simply bought into the revisionist history that has been becoming popular lately?
This country has, predominantly, healed and liberated people, and continues to do so in SPITE of the troubling trend of profiteering!!!!!
Do you really want me to list all of the nations which have been liberated from tyranny because of the United States? I can list at least 30 nations that are free today because of the USA.
How about that fact that the slave trade in the USA was very minor compared to the rest of the world, to the point that many slaves often chose to remain with their masters OUT OF LOVE even when given the chance of emancipation? How about the fact that many American slaves got to keep a higher percentage of their wages then many Americans do today after confiscatory taxation? How about the fact that the Framers may have been forced to allow slavery to continue for the good of the Union, but that they made sure the foundations were laid for the eventual abolition of it?
How about the fact that the USA is the most charitable nation in the world? That we are the largest national source of food, aid, and medicine in the history of the world? That wherever natural disasters occur, we are usually the first and largest emergency responders?
What about the fact that the USA is a leader in fighting human sex trafficking?
What about the fact that the USA is the foundation from which the gospel has been able to be spread to the entire world in nearly ever known language?
But oh yeah. We are evil oppressors. Give me a break.
Yeah, you have a minuscule list of offenses that have unfortunately sullied our past. But those are exceptions, not rules, and have always been dealt with as swiftly as possible. Why do you choose to magnify the small percentage of bad things that have happened in our nation's past when they are a drop in the ocean compared to the good things we have done?
If God established government and grants them authority within their sphere (which He does), then the USA (warts and all) has been the best example of what a just nation should look like.
You want to see Satan behind every bush and behind every government, fine. You are wrong. Our government is by the people and for the people, and we have direct influence on who is and who isn't in power. If people want to elect knuckleheads and give Satan more power, then that will happen. But when people like me do our best to be agents of light and help elect godly men and women to office, then we will reap the benefits of godly rule and to GOD be the glory!
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/31/2009 6:03:39 PM
|
|
|
makarizo
Posts: 2225
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Read a book like John Adams and the letters he received and we will be put in our place. We spend too little time in God's word, in fellowship with Jesus, allowing Him freedom to rewire our minds so that our thoughts are His thoughts.
a quote from John Adams that I love:
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
that brings out the patriot in me..... and then I remember... some "things" about america, the indians, the slaves, the gold rush... the civil war,.... etc. how my great great uncle spent the duration of WW1 doing hard ridiculous labor in a prison camp in KS just for being a mennonite.
The American experiment all began with a verse in Isaiah (33:22)
the patriot in me hopes to see America turn back to the only real God,
it is what a person does with their patriotism that can make it a sin.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 10/31/2009 11:12:26 PM
|
|
|
didymus101
Posts: 1271
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
Christian love is pan-human. Each person, no matter what nation he belongs to, is our neighbor. Is this the view of the American government or any government?
The kingdom Jesus established is anarchistic in that it recognizes God alone as arche (supreme power). We live free from all other powers.
Governments are part of the fallen, oppressed worldly kingdom that has been done away with in Christ. The interests of these two kingdoms are at odds with each other. Our citizenship is in heaven. Dual citizenship is a house divided against itself.
Our kingdom is not of this world. We do not live by the standards of this world (such as patriotism). We are no more part of this world than Christ. Let us set our minds on things above, not on worldly things, for friendship with the world is hatred towards God. Anyone who chooses to become a friend of the world is an enemy of God.
God allows these government authorities to exist at His sufferage. Governments exist because humans cannot trust God enough to rule them. It is by our lack of trust that God concedes to government. God uses governments, as much as possible, to preserve as law and order as possible. Satan is "lord of this world" and god of this age (Lk4:5-7; Jn12:31, 14:30, 16:11; 2Cor4:4)
The fallen natural mind sees our trust in God alone as insane, impractical, and ever irresponsible. Yet we are called to such utter foolishness.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/1/2009 5:18:59 AM
|
|
|
ManimalX
Posts: 2849
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
Ummmm .... nope.
My thought exactly.
Agapist still can't answer the question repeatedly asked of him: what does that look like in real life?.
Agapist doesn't seem to understand that we weren't created for "heaven", we were created for "Earth", specifically a renewed and restored Earth.
Agapist doesn't seem to understand that we aren't spirits with temporal bodies, we are spirits with currently corrupt bodies destined for eternal physical bodies.
Agapist doesn't seem to understand that government isn't "suffered" by God, it is endorsed, instituted and maintained by Him. What He "suffers" is the corruption of His system of law and justice by evil men and women.
Agapist doesn't seem to understand that "love" can require physical violence against physical manifestations of evil.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/1/2009 11:25:15 AM
|
|
|
didymus101
Posts: 1271
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
Hi, manimal. I am still on earth. You can speak about me as if I am not here, and that is what you think of my spiritual views, but I am here.
I know you keep saying I have not answered that question and I feel I have thoroughly responded to it.
The requirement of the law is nothing less than absolute and perfect love for the lord every minute of every day. It is through this love, received by grace, that we are to function in the world. It is the same love Christ had and it did not keep him from good works or being in the world. Look at Christ's life and that is how it is in real life. What he lived and preached was foolishness to the world, impractical and insane. He was hated for it.
He was especially hated by the Jews, and could not possibly have been the Messiah, because he was not a patriot for the Jewish cause of re-establishing a kingdom on earth. He did not speak out against Roman oppression. He said his kingdom was not of this world, for if it were he would fight.
Jesus loved his people of Jerusalem, not the government which his father disapproved of, pleaded with them not to go that way but then reluctantly relented and granted it because his people insisted. God "patiently endured" (sufferance) their folly. It was a lesson.
Sacrificial love is called "sacrificial" for a reason.
What are we sacrificing? The self.
How does that manifest? We live as if in heaven. We are other-centered. We do everything for Christ. We take no thought for the self. We have one interest and one rule: love of neighbor.
What borders and what enemies do we have in heaven? None. Can we be harmed? No.
Put away your sword...turn the other cheek...go the extra mile. This is how allegiance to the knigdom of God manifests, which is contrary to the ends of patriotism.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/1/2009 12:23:22 PM
|
|
|
didymus101
Posts: 1271
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
As a good patriot is sometimes called upon to defend their country by violent means, and as this piece of patriotism was brought up by manimal by insisting that this love I speak of somehow requires, in his words, "physical violence against physical manifestations of evil," I feel it is within the thread's parameters to address the related subject of nonviolence.
But first an open question: what is your "real world" orientation?
To a mind grounded primarily in the logic of the temporal and conditioned by a seemingly endless stream of examples in which violence is portrayed as a legitimate means of conflict resolution, the acceptance of nonviolence does not come easily.
Jesus quite frequently used the word "turn." The word that defines that term is metanoia. It means a significant change of mind-set, a whole new attitude and outlook on life, a different ground for viewing and interpreting reality. Until such a "turn" is taken, this perspective is not merely incomprehensible but also madness, haughtily dismissed as simplistic idealism, or in the vulgate of this forum, "fluffiness."
The argument for violence is highly reasonable and appealing. Survival, self-preservation, appears a necessity. It seems we have a God-given right to harm or kill those who are trying to kill us. Harming or killing others seems a tragic necessity in the present state of a fallen humanity with its immoral societies. It is not.
Let me quote a favorite writer, Jacques Ellul: "God intervenes radically only to a radical attitude on the aprt of the believer--radical not in the regard to politcal means but in regard to faith; and the believer who is radical in his faith has rejected all means but for faith. The appeal to and use of violence in Christian action increase in exact proportion to the decrease in faith...Unbelief is the true root of the Christian championship of violence." Can I hear an Amen.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/1/2009 12:52:50 PM
|
|
|
didymus101
Posts: 1271
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
If you want to see how God likes to deal with international disputes, what his ideal is for settling such things, look at how the radical faith of Elisha helped resolve a serious-go-to-war-and-kill-as-the-only-answer conflict.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
! 
