RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Part 2)
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[Poll]
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Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Part 2)
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Total Votes : 53
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(last vote on : 11/21/2009 11:36:40 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/1/2009 4:29:51 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4627
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quote:
I wonder if any of the 14 people who voted "No" can truthfully sing the Christian anthem "Victory in Jesus". Indeed, the chorus states "all my love is due Him". So in light of 1 John 5:3, since all our love is due Him, then we must obey God's commands! It is only when a Christian stops sinning that a Christian fully loves God. And it is only when we fully love God, than we can stop sinning.
Wow! That's profound. Sometimes I surprise even myself... 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/1/2009 5:39:51 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1747
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I wonder if any of the 14 people who voted "No" can truthfully sing the Christian anthem "Victory in Jesus". Indeed, the chorus states "all my love is due Him". So in light of 1 John 5:3, since all our love is due Him, then we must obey God's commands! It is only when a Christian stops sinning that a Christian fully loves God. And it is only when we fully love God, than we can stop sinning.
Amen drmark!
Eugene Monroe Bartlett surely knew what it meant to have victory! I have no idea how it could be possible for one to sing of having victory in Jesus when they believe that they will, and therefore must, inevitably fail Him. That's certainly not victory to me!!!
quote:
Wow! That's profound. Sometimes I surprise even myself...
Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/1/2009 6:41:45 PM
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DoveMinistries
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quote:
I wonder if any of the 14 people who voted "No" can truthfully sing the Christian anthem "Victory in Jesus".
We sang that song in church and I thought about this thread. I know for sure that I can sing that song with absolute certainty, AMEN!!!!!!!
Brother when I read this, the Holy Spirit moved right here at my desk.
If you all notice no one will dispute scripture with scripture.
Its all one sided scripture being meet with opinions. Matthew 5:29,30 Christ is telling us here to avoid sin at all cost.
God Bless
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/1/2009 6:59:28 PM
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DoveMinistries
Posts: 308
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quote:
Q: Did the Holy Spirit indwell and empower humans before the death and resurrection of Jesus?
A: Yes, all throughout the OT.
Is the Holy Spirit resting upon someone or being on them the same as being indwelled or filled with the Spirit?
Honest Question
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/1/2009 7:02:15 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
MX,
quote:
You are absolutely right: I have never gone the whole day or even one second assuming I know the hearts and minds of every believer that has ever existed.
This is not what I said, sir.
If you continue to assume you know the hearts of every believer, and if you continue to judge them of sin that you know nothing about and that they are not guilty of, then I will respectfully demand that you discontinue posting on this thread. It was individuals who did this in my last thread that got it deleted, and thank God they no longer are allowed on these forums. Please stop.
In Christ,
ZG
I have written nothing to warrant such an arrogant, angry response. I've been nothing but light-hearted in this thread. We simply disagree. Why are you getting so angry? I think you completely misunderstood what I wrote, and I encourage you to take a little more time in the future before flying off the handle. Quick to listen, slow to speak.
These were your exact words:
quote:
Have you gone the whole day without assuming you know the hearts and minds of every believer that has ever existed, judging them for sin you know nothing about, hence bearing false witness and vain communication? The answer, with 100% certainty, is NO. If you answer otherwise, we will allow your own words to speak for themselves.
Did you notice that I wrote, "YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT"? What you wrote is exactly right. Nobody should "assume to know the hearts and minds of every believer", nor should they "bear false witness" or "vain communication". Again, you are right.
The point is, THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM DOING!. I can confidently claim that no Christian will ever attain sinless perfection in this life, because in my understanding the Bible teaches as much. I am judging no person on my own accord, but rather speaking to the universal condition of pre-glorified humanity as taught in Scripture. I know that nobody in this life has ever been able to stop sinning, (nor will they until the down payment they have in the HS is paid in full after the parousia) because that is what I see in Scripture.
Now, if you want to disagree with my understanding of Scripture, by all means please do. Dr.Mark does so all of the time and we have wonderful discussions and can even give each other a friendly jab once in a while because we aren't all offended that someone has the audacity to disagree with us.
Does that clear things up between us? Can we disagree without you getting so angry? If you are not able to constrain yourself, I will leave the thread joyfully because it is not my intention to actually CAUSE people to sin in their anger.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/1/2009 7:28:07 PM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The battle between the "old man" and the "new man" never goes away until we physically die or are translated into our glorified bodies. That's not what Paul shouts out in Romans 7:25! BTW, MX, is Romans 8 missing from your Bible?
Romans 7 isn't past-tense to Paul. He is writing as a born-again believer. Romans 8 teaches that we are free from the penalty of sin because of Jesus. That is "what the law could not do" (v.3), it could not free us from the penalty of our sins. That is why " There is therefore now now condemnation" (v.1).
Again, this is Paul writing of his current state of being, AFTER being saved:
"14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."
Also, consider the following excerpt. The bolding is mine:
quote:
http://www.gotquestions.org/sinless-perfection.html
First Corinthians 13:10; Ephesians 4:13; and Colossians 1:28 and 4:12 all should be translated as “mature” or “full-grown,” both of which fit in well in each verse’s context. As human beings we are still bound under the curse of Adam. No matter how hard we try not to, we will still sin against God. The Apostle Paul scolded Peter for favoritism (Galatians 2:11-13). Late in his ministry, Paul calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). Peter, James, John, and Paul all admitted that they were not perfect. How could you or I claim anything different?
True perfection will not come until the Rapture of the church, when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At this time we will receive a new body (Philippians 3:20,21; 1 Corinthians 15:54). We will attend the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) where our works will be judged and any rewards given (1 Corinthians 3:9-15). We will then live forever and reign with Christ, in sinless perfection.
I'll tell you what: If anyone here can provide me with the name of even ONE person in the universe who has managed to achieve a permanent state of sinless perfection in their lifetime on Earth, I will recant and change my mind.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/1/2009 9:41:31 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4627
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quote:
Is the Holy Spirit resting upon someone or being on them the same as being indwelled or filled with the Spirit?
Honest Question Well, the honest answer is that it likely depends on your doctrinal tradition. I believe a strong Scriptural case can be made for the infilling of the Holy Spirit as a unique second work of grace whereby a Believer is cleansed from all sin and empowered for a life of service and victory. Episodic events wherein the HS rests upon or strengthens or enables someone to accomplish God's Will are found throughout Scripture and likely occur in all our lives as we remain open and available to God's working in our heart. I know that other doctrinal traditions have their own understanding of how the HS works and I feel those may be equally valid positions.
quote:
I'll tell you what: If anyone here can provide me with the name of even ONE person in the universe who has managed to achieve a permanent state of sinless perfection in their lifetime on Earth, I will recant and change my mind. Well obviously Jesus is the one Person we all know to have done this, but you're making it a lot hrder than it has to be, MX. If I were to die at the end of typing this post, I would be in a state of sinless perfection. Very simply, God has forgiven all my past sins, He has cleansed me from all sin, I am not sinning at this moment, and I do not intend to sin in the future. I am more than confident that multiplied tens of thousands of godly saints over 20 centuries have readily met these requirements to be free of sin at the end of their lifetime on earth!
BTW, I've corrected this wrong terminology at least half a dozen times in the past few weeks alone. No one "achieves" sinlessness. It is a spiritual state of grace to which we may attain by the loving power of God, and has NOTHING to do with our achievements or abilities.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/1/2009 10:58:00 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1747
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
MX,
quote:
You are absolutely right: I have never gone the whole day or even one second assuming I know the hearts and minds of every believer that has ever existed.
This is not what I said, sir.
If you continue to assume you know the hearts of every believer, and if you continue to judge them of sin that you know nothing about and that they are not guilty of, then I will respectfully demand that you discontinue posting on this thread. It was individuals who did this in my last thread that got it deleted, and thank God they no longer are allowed on these forums. Please stop.
In Christ,
ZG
I have written nothing to warrant such an arrogant, angry response. I've been nothing but light-hearted in this thread. We simply disagree. Why are you getting so angry? I think you completely misunderstood what I wrote, and I encourage you to take a little more time in the future before flying off the handle. Quick to listen, slow to speak.
These were your exact words:
quote:
Have you gone the whole day without assuming you know the hearts and minds of every believer that has ever existed, judging them for sin you know nothing about, hence bearing false witness and vain communication? The answer, with 100% certainty, is NO. If you answer otherwise, we will allow your own words to speak for themselves.
Did you notice that I wrote, "YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT"? What you wrote is exactly right. Nobody should "assume to know the hearts and minds of every believer", nor should they "bear false witness" or "vain communication". Again, you are right.
The point is, THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM DOING!. I can confidently claim that no Christian will ever attain sinless perfection in this life, because in my understanding the Bible teaches as much. I am judging no person on my own accord, but rather speaking to the universal condition of pre-glorified humanity as taught in Scripture. I know that nobody in this life has ever been able to stop sinning, (nor will they until the down payment they have in the HS is paid in full after the parousia) because that is what I see in Scripture.
Now, if you want to disagree with my understanding of Scripture, by all means please do. Dr.Mark does so all of the time and we have wonderful discussions and can even give each other a friendly jab once in a while because we aren't all offended that someone has the audacity to disagree with us.
Does that clear things up between us? Can we disagree without you getting so angry? If you are not able to constrain yourself, I will leave the thread joyfully because it is not my intention to actually CAUSE people to sin in their anger.
In post #403, you said,
"Have you ever gone one day without sinning? The answer, with 100% certainty, is NO. If you answer otherwise, you are a liar and therefore a sinner."
Whether you like it or not, this is an assumption that you made based on another assumption that you know the hearts and minds of every single Christian that has ever walked the earth, and you pre-judged them for sin that you can not possibly know was committed, and sin that they most likely are not guilty of. My point is that if you continue to assume that you know the souls of every single Christian alive today and judge them for sin that you know nothing about as you did in post 403, you will be asked to leave. End of discussion.
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/2/2009 12:35:58 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I'll tell you what: If anyone here can provide me with the name of even ONE person in the universe who has managed to achieve a permanent state of sinless perfection in their lifetime on Earth, I will recant and change my mind. Well obviously Jesus is the one Person we all know to have done this,
I mean OTHER THAN Jesus, silly 
quote:
but you're making it a lot hrder than it has to be, MX.
I think I am making it extremely easy! If it is possible for a Christian to stop sinning altogether, produce one that has done so! In the words of Jerry Maguire: "Show me the money!" 
You are crossing the line into the realm of that old claim of the Roman Church: "Well, the bread and wine actually turn into human skin and human blood.... BUT, you just can't taste it, smell it, feel it, or see it. But trust us, it really has turned into a chunk of muscle and a cup of type A+ blood!"
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If I were to die at the end of typing this post, I would be in a state of sinless perfection.
Exactly! Because the moment you die, you are no longer at war with your corrupt flesh, and your sins are all already paid in full! Once you die, the next time you drive your old flesh wagon around, its gonna be the new model with sinless undercoating!
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Very simply, God has forgiven all my past sins, He has cleansed me from all sin,
Right. That cleansing means your punishment for past, present, and future sin has already been administered and you won't have to face the wrath of God for ANY sin. That cleansing doesn't mean your battle with sin is over... YET. That is just part of the "now-but-not-yet" kingdom of God.
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I am not sinning at this moment, and I do not intend to sin in the future.
In the passage from Romans 7 I quoted, Paul didn't intend to sin either, but still admitted that "intention" and "reality" were often at odds. "Not intending" to sin does not equate "cessation of sinning". It merely reflects a frame of mind.
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I am more than confident that multiplied tens of thousands of godly saints over 20 centuries have readily met these requirements to be free of sin at the end of their lifetime on earth!
Why are you confident of something that nobody has ever seen or been able to produce?! Especially when Scripture doesn't teach that we can stop our flesh from sinning all of the time this side of our bodily glorification!
quote:
BTW, I've corrected this wrong terminology at least half a dozen times in the past few weeks alone. No one "achieves" sinlessness. It is a spiritual state of grace to which we may attain by the loving power of God, and has NOTHING to do with our achievements or abilities.
Wait a minute now, Doc. You don't let me get away with semantics and I won't let you either! A "state to which we may attain" is the same thing as "achieving a state". Now, if you want to write something like, "a state which we have no control over that just eventually happens against our will", that would be different than "a state to which we may attain", and would be a more correct definition of your position.
Our WILL is shackled and chained to the issue of our SINNING, and since our WILL is still corrupted by our FLESH, sinning cannot cease until that FLESH is done away with for good.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/2/2009 12:58:45 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
In post #403, you said,
"Have you ever gone one day without sinning? The answer, with 100% certainty, is NO. If you answer otherwise, you are a liar and therefore a sinner."
Whether you like it or not, this is an assumption that you made based on another assumption that you know the hearts and minds of every single Christian that has ever walked the earth, and you pre-judged them for sin that you can not possibly know was committed, and sin that they most likely are not guilty of. My point is that if you continue to assume that you know the souls of every single Christian alive today and judge them for sin that you know nothing about as you did in post 403, you will be asked to leave. End of discussion.
In Christ,
ZG
Sorry, bub, maybe you treat your family and friends like that in person (I hope not), but here on this internet discussion board you don't get to "DEMAND" that folks stop posting and proclaim the "END OF DISCUSSION" when your position is being respectfully challenged. The discussion is over when I decide to stop discussing, or when a Moderator asks me to leave.
Fortunately for you, I am deciding out of a sense of charity and as a token of respect to leave the discussion after this post to allow you a chance to cool down.
I will explain a third time, and then I will be done addressing you in this thread (per your request). I am going to put it in a simple form so that I am not misunderstood again:
1. I believe the Bible teaches that it is impossible for the Christian to stop sinning until they are given their glorified bodies.
2. Therefore, if a person claims that they have stopped sinning, then they are a liar by biblical standards as I understand those them.
I said it before, and will repeat one last time: if you want to challenge my understanding, then do so. Getting puffed up and demanding I leave the thread accomplishes nothing.
I am not "judging" people's specific sins. I am "judging" that nobody can stop sinning based on Scripture. And guess what? By that same standard, I also, as you put it, "know the souls" of everybody! Everybody sins, and everybody will always sin until they die or Jesus returns. If they are Christians, their soul is secure: they are saved, can never be unsaved again, and the sins that they commit daily up until the point of their death will by no means be counted against them. If they are not Christians, they are choosing to pay the penalty for their sin on their own, and their soul is in danger of hellfire.
I can't make it any clearer.
Good day, brother.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/2/2009 6:22:56 AM
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cposey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The statement bothering me is if you can't stop sinning, then you aren't saved. That's exactly what God said in 1 John 3:4-10! Anyone who continues to practice sinning does not know Christ. It cannot be any clearer that this, cposey.
Well then i guess nobody is saved, because whether or not you want to admit it, we have all sinned since we have been saved. I've read plenty of your posts and have seen sins in them, so i guess we're both doomed.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/2/2009 7:36:47 AM
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madlyrics
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I believe even though we strive we always fall short but I also believe God sees us striving and He rewards us for that. We can never be without sin because some of the sins we commit we don't even know we are committing so all we can do is ask God to forgive us ours sins those we know of and those that are secret. God is a merciful God and all He ask is we stay focused on Him. If we are focused on Him He will make sure we line up with His will.
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Loving and living for Jesus one day at a time
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/2/2009 8:09:20 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4627
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quote:
Wait a minute now, Doc. You don't let me get away with semantics and I won't let you either! A "state to which we may attain" is the same thing as "achieving a state". Now, if you want to write something like, "a state which we have no control over that just eventually happens against our will", that would be different than "a state to which we may attain", and would be a more correct definition of your position. No MX, there is a subtle, but critical, difference between "achieving or obtaining" and "attaining or receiving" anything. The former verbs indicate active action while the latter ones indicate passive responses. So for the last time, no one is sinless by anything they achieve actively, but only by the grace and power they receive responsively.
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Our WILL is shackled and chained to the issue of our SINNING, and since our WILL is still corrupted by our FLESH, sinning cannot cease until that FLESH is done away with for good. Which is exactly why we must allow God to crucify the FLESH in order to eradicate the sinful nature and make it possible to cease WILLFUL sinning. Why do you deny Galatians 2:20, 5:24, and 6:14, MX? They are all written in the PRESENT TENSE!
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Well then i guess nobody is saved, because whether or not you want to admit it, we have all sinned since we have been saved. Since lots of people have been and are being saved now, then your pessimism in unfounded. What does the passage really mean to you, cposey? And please stop defining my sins. God is quite capable of handling that issue and I trust His judgement a little more than yours... 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/2/2009 9:15:45 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
I'll tell you what: If anyone here can provide me with the name of even ONE person in the universe who has managed to achieve a permanent state of sinless perfection in their lifetime on Earth, I will recant and change my mind.
Well of course no one (except Christ) has lived their entire life withouot sin, for Scripture definately states this, but we are talking about Christians, the reborn, new Creation, of God.
The question is "Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning?) and the answer is Yes. If one knows the Word of God, and has faith in that Word and God's promises to Believers; there can be no other answer.
One can comb the Scriptures looking for excuses to continue thier sin, but God commanded us to be Holy, made provisions for that Holiness, even made provisions for us if we falter to return to that Holiness, and it is amazing that anyone can deny the truth of Scripture.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/2/2009 10:49:05 AM
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cposey
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quote:
Since lots of people have been and are being saved now, then your pessimism in unfounded. What does the passage really mean to you, cposey? And please stop defining my sins. God is quite capable of handling that issue and I trust His judgement a little more than yours...
I don't have any pessimism. What i've been trying to explain to you is that the phrasing that you are using in your teaching is wrong. if we look at the present time to the time we were saved we have all sinned. So to take the scripture which is explained in more context and depth, and then summize it to say if you keep on sinning then you aren't saved. period. is absolute falsehood. You are just as much a stickler on the truth found in the word as i am. You can't take something so in depth and twist it into a short summary. That is where i differ with you. That is why it is met with such opposition.
That passage along with many, many others has taught me that we are called to stop sinning. That is part of our identity(new man) in Christ. We can't avoid this truth. But to take it one step further and say if you struggle with sin in your life, then you aren't saved is hogwash. When we become the mature Christians as Paul describes in Ephesians, then we will be able to say with confidence and without opposition, that we are no longer struggling with sin.
Well i am certainly glad to hear that you trust God's judgement more than mine as far as dealing with your sins. That is encouraging to hear. But if you can accept a warning from one brother to another with love and encouragement, read ephesians 4. Then reread some of your posts and see if you could possibly need to be patient with others, especially when they disagree with you.
in Christ's love
cposey
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/2/2009 10:51:43 AM
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cposey
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That is an excellent response rc. For some to not recognize this truth, we all can only know the truth once God has taught it to us, right? If they seek God's heart, HE will direct their steps and give them wisdom, which only comes from HIM.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/2/2009 11:54:55 AM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: madlyrics
I believe even though we strive we always fall short but I also believe God sees us striving and He rewards us for that. We can never be without sin because some of the sins we commit we don't even know we are committing so all we can do is ask God to forgive us ours sins those we know of and those that are secret. God is a merciful God and all He ask is we stay focused on Him. If we are focused on Him He will make sure we line up with His will.
If you are led by the Spirit, madlyrics, will He lead you into sin? So even if you "sin out of ignorance", who's fault is it? It's yours, because you were not being led by the Spirit. You even said, "If we are focused on Him He will make sure we line up with His will." Do you want to know something absolutely amazing?! If you are focused on the the leading of the Holy Spirit, He will guide you down a path or perfection! How majestic!!!
Truth is, the Bible says that there is a way to escape EVERY temptation, and if you are led by the Spirit you will not sin. That means it is possible to stop sinning.
In Christ,
ZG
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Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/2/2009 11:58:39 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4627
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quote:
What i've been trying to explain to you is that the phrasing that you are using in your teaching is wrong. Well, I've only repeated verbatim from the best English translations available to us, so I'm sorry you think my "phrasing is wrong".
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So to take the scripture which is explained in more context and depth, and then summize it to say if you keep on sinning then you aren't saved. period. is absolute falsehood. What does it mean to live or abide in Christ according to 1 John 3:6?
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But to take it one step further and say if you struggle with sin in your life, then you aren't saved is hogwash. I'm sorry, but I didn't realize that I had said that specifically. What I am saying specifically is that if a Christian is struggling with sin in their life, then they need to have God eradicate their sinful nature. They don't need to be saved, they need to be sanctified!
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Then reread some of your posts and see if you could possibly need to be patient with others, especially when they disagree with you. How anyone can determine the level of my patience through passioned debate on a discussion board is really beyond my understanding! I will accept your criticism in the same spirit it was offered, cposey. Thank you for your concern for my well-being.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/2/2009 4:10:08 PM
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cposey
Posts: 298
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In 1 John 3:6 the end or the verse says "But those who keep on sinning have never known HIM or understood who HE is" There is two scenarios there. Either they don't know HIM, not saved, or and or being the key word, they don't understand who He is. We all are a work in progress. I have never met anyone in my life that got saved and instantaneously never sinned again and also completely understood Jesus. Heck I can't say that now. Now that being said, it is our calling and our identity to stop sinning and live by the new nature which God has given us to be a child of God.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/2/2009 4:16:33 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4627
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quote:
Now that being said, it is our calling and our identity to stop sinning and live by the new nature which God has given us to be a child of God. Amen, no disagreement from me on this truth! So why do you think so many posting on this thread do not believe it is possible to live by their God-given new natures and stop sinning?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/2/2009 4:26:04 PM
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laura...
Posts: 3281
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
We all are a work in progress. I have never met anyone in my life that got saved and instantaneously never sinned again and also completely understood Jesus. Heck I can't say that now. Now that being said, it is our calling and our identity to stop sinning and live by the new nature which God has given us to be a child of God.
Your statement as quoted above is in agreement with everyone in this thread who has said that it is possible for a Christian to stop sinning. "Possible" being the operative word not "probable" or "guaranteed".
< Message edited by laura... -- 11/2/2009 4:32:21 PM >
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This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/3/2009 6:10:30 AM
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cposey
Posts: 298
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Now that being said, it is our calling and our identity to stop sinning and live by the new nature which God has given us to be a child of God. Amen, no disagreement from me on this truth! So why do you think so many posting on this thread do not believe it is possible to live by their God-given new natures and stop sinning?
you know i can't speak for everyone, but here are some thoughts and experiences on why others have a hard time accepting the truth. Personally it took myself 9 years to come to accept my new identity. When you wrestle with the truth of God's word, one of two things happens. Either the truth will connect mind, body and spirit or there will be a disconnect. The disconnect comes from not being able to take the word of God and applying it to your life. God's word has to transform from mere words on a page and be enscribed on the tablets of our heart. Only then will the truth become evident in our lives. Also when you deal with a topic like sin, it cuts everyone of us to the core. Some will view the truth of accepting our new identity as an attack on their salvation. Which some people do. They feel like they need to defend their salvation. Imagine how hard it is to know that you are saved and love God and then someone come along and say something contrary to that. When we try to teach about sin, it is usually perceived in attack form. People are going to defend their salvation with as much vigor as you do. I believe with all of my heart that we cannot truly understand God's word without it being God transforming us. We cannot take HIS word and try and figure it out on our own. The only wisdom and understanding that has eternal value, comes solely from God. If we take those who do not understand as we do and "spiritually put them down" and rather be patient with them until God can transform the mind, body and spirit. It is through no human effort that we can boast, but only the grace and mercy and awesomeness that comes only from God. If someone has a heart after God, they will eventually reach the same understanding of HIS truth.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/3/2009 8:18:46 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4627
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
In 1 John 3:6 the end or the verse says "But those who keep on sinning have never known HIM or understood who HE is" There is two scenarios there. Either they don't know HIM, not saved, or and or being the key word, they don't understand who He is. Hmm, this is a very interesting thought, cposey. If there really is a distinction between "knowing" and "understanding" Jesus, then perhaps some saved Believers keep on sinning because they do not understand the fullness of the victory, the abundance, the blessing that they actually have in their relationship with Christ. Thanks for pointing out the latter half of the verse since I usually focus on the first half.
I believe there are a couple of major reasons why many sincere Christians do not believe it's possible to stop sinning. First, I see this all over these Forums, that some confuse or misunderstand the sinful nature and willful acts of sinning which it causes. The sinful nature is NOT related to our physical flesh, is NOT inherited genetically, and does NOT have to be a permanent characteristic of our physical existence living in a fallen world. There is a cure for the sinful nature which can restore us back to the spiritual state in which God created Adam and Eve. To be free from sin yet still have the capability of sinning should be the desire of every Christian who understands the full magnitude of Christ's Atonement and Resurrection.
The other problem I see is what e1ng has occasionally described as "false humility". I personally don't like that term because I feel many of these "sinning saints" sincerely believe that their attitude toward sinning contributes to their humble relationship with God. But, however sincere they may be in wanting to show their complete dependence on God, the end result is that "sinning saints" make God look weak and uninterested in their alleged persistent sinning! Instead of focusing on humility, I like to focus on victory and claim the grace and power that God gives me every day so that I can choose not to sin. If we truly are joint-heirs with Jesus, if we truly are His sisters and brothers, if we truly have His mind , then let's start acting like Jesus every day and stop wallowing in our human frailties, weaknesses and unintentional imperfections. If God wants to fix some of those, I'm sure He is more than capable. But if we do not want to fix our willful sinning, then God will not fix it for us against our will!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/3/2009 11:44:47 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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Possible... Of course... With Christ what isn't? Just like it's possible to move a mountain with the faith the size of a mustard seed... Anyone seen any mountains moved lately? Were those who promote sinless life after salvation able to practice what they preach on the very thread regarding the matter? Not in my opinion and by their own admission... Very telling to say the least...
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/3/2009 12:00:06 PM
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insndreamer
Posts: 44
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I have a question that's been bothering me. Why is it that some of you imply that anyone who holds the belief that it's not possible to stop sinning completely in this lifetime is trying to justify their sins, or is using it as an excuse to not try to be righteous? I think that assumption is extremely unfair.
I have willfull sin in my life, and I'm a Christian. I don't know how everyone else defines willfull sin, but to me it is anything that I do that I know I shouldn't, or anything that I don't do that I know I should. I'm in a huge struggle right now, and there are some days when I feel like a slave to sin. But in no way, shape, or form do I justify the things I do/don't do. I'm not refusing for God to "fix it". I'm begging on my knees through tears, telling Him I can't do anything on my own and I need Him to work a miracle in me. I'm in constant torment over my sins.
Now, I'm not blaming God one bit for my struggle. I realize that it is 100% my fault that I haven't overcome. But the truth is, I don't know how to overcome. I know the Bible says that we can't take credit for any good thing we do, so if all that is required of me is to allow God to work in me, I honestly don't know what else I'm supposed to do.
My point is, just because someone has willfull sin in their life, doesn't mean they are justifying it, or not trying everything they know how to get rid of it. Do I believe we can be completely without sin on this earth? No. But I do believe we can continually grow in Christ, and get as close to perfection as our flesh is capable of.
For example, one of my sins is gluttony. I believe that one day I will overcome this willfull sin, but does that mean I will never binge again? I will certainly try not to, but the flesh is weak and untrustworthy, especially around the holidays  .
Anyway, hope that wasn't veering too far off topic. I've been thinking about starting a thread on how to overcome sin but frankly, I'm afraid of getting attacked.
Oh, and the idea that if someone dies shortly after repenting, and before they have a chance to sin, they are sinless for the rest of their lives? I guess that if you only have 5 minutes left in your life then maybe you could go without sinning. But I honestly thought the topic was about living a much longer liftetime without sin.
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