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Knight_Of_God -> creatures of revlation (10/22/2009 9:24:16 AM)

the creatures in revlation Locusts- lion heads scorpion tails and crowns with wings six headed dragon do you think these will be the actual things we see in revlation or are they just like something we gta look more into



tsnody2001 -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/22/2009 5:09:25 PM)

That is a hard answer to give. But I will give it a whirl.

I think it is something we will have to look a little further into. But it also very well could be literal. Genetic technology is advancing by leaps and bounds, and I think there is a very realistic possibility that science will soon be able to cross certain animals with others. In fact, it already has. There is a lot more I want to say, but I think I will gauge other people's responses first.

LINK
Human-Animal crossings



Knight_Of_God -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/22/2009 6:16:39 PM)

yeah i was thinking maybe it could be a tank or something called the locust or sumthing and maybe the red dragon is guna be the anti christs plane that has the lady in it or something, but yeah that animal breeding and cloning is intresting



tsnody2001 -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/22/2009 6:45:28 PM)

Of course John would have used the terminology that he knew to describe even things he had never seen before. So he would have used phrases like "was like a" (Revelation 4:7, 6:12, 9:1-21, 13:2, etc.).



Retrobyter -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/23/2009 2:58:44 AM)

Shalom, Knight_Of_God.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knight_Of_God

the creatures in revlation
Locusts- lion heads scorpion tails and crowns with wings
six headed dragon

do you think these will be the actual things we see in revlation or are they just like something we gta look more into


I'm an independent thinker; so, while others have said that the locusts of Rev. 9 are demons or representative of something else, I'm of the opinion that they are indeed LOCUSTS! I believe that they are antediluvian creatures (creatures from before the Flood of Noach’s day) that have been lying dormant in a chamber below ground and won't revive until the pit in which they are currently hidden is opened by one of the meteorites that fall.

Let's look at the passage and analyze it:

Rev 9:1-12
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
KJV

Here's the Greek:

1 Kai ho pemptos aggelos esalpisen: kai eidon astera ek tou ouranou peptookota eis teen geen, kai edothee autoo hee kleis tou freatos tees abussou
2 kai eenoixen to frear tees abussou, kai anebee kapnos ek tou freatos hoos kapnos kaminou megalees, kai eskotoothee ho heelios kai ho aeer ek tou kapnou tou freatos.
3 Kai ek tou kapnou exeelthon akrides eis teen geen, kai edothee autais exousia hoos echousin exousian hoi skorpioi tees gees.
4 Kai errethee autais hina mee adikeesousin ton chorton tees gees oude pan chlooron oude pan dendron, ei mee tous anthroopous hoitines ouk echousi teen sfragida tou Theou epi toon metoopoon.
5 Kai edothee autois hina mee apokteinoosin autous, all’ hina basanistheesontai meenas pente, kai ho basanismos autoon hoos basanismos skorpiou hotan paisee anthroopon.
6 Kai en tais heemerais ekeinais zeeteesousin hoi anthroopoi ton thanaton kai ou mee heureesousin auton kai epithumeesousin apothanein kai feugei ho thanatos ap’ autoon.
7 Kai ta homoioomata toon akridoon homoia hippois heetoimasmenois eis polemon kai epi tas kefalas autoon hoos sefanoi homoioi chrusoo kai ta prosoopa autoon hoos prosoopa anthroopoon,
8 kai eichon trichas hoos trichas gunaikoon kai hoi odontes autoon hoos leontoon eesan,
9 kai eichon thoorakas hoos thoorakas sideerous, kai hee foonee toon pterugoon autoon hoos foonee harmatoon hippoon polloon trechontoon eis polemon,
10 kai echousin ouras homoias skorpiois kai kentra, kai en tais ourais autoon hee exousia autoon adikeesai tous anthroopous meenas pente,
11 echousin ep’ autoon basilea ton aggelon tees abussou, onoma autoo Hebraisti “Abaddoon,” kai en tee Helleenikee onoma echei “Apolluoon.”
12 Hee ouai hee mia apeelthen; idou erchetai eti duo ouai meta tauta.

Here's a word-for-word translation:

1 And the fifth messenger sounded; and I-saw a-star out-from the sky fall into the ground, and was-given to-him the key of-the pit of-the bottomless
2 And he-opened the pit the bottomless, and there-arose a-smoke out-from the pit like a-smoke of-a-furnace huge, and were-darkened the sun and the air out-from of-the smoke of-the pit.
3 and out-from the smoke there-came locusts into the ground, and was-given unto-them authority like have authority the scorpions of-the ground.
4 And were-ordered they that not they-should-hurt the grass of-the ground, neither any green-thing neither any tree, if not those men who not have the seal of-the God upon the foreheads.
5 And it-was-given to-them that not they-should-kill them, but that they-should-be-tortured months five, and the torture of-them like a-torture of-a-scorpion when he-strikes a-man.
6 And in the days those shall-seek the men the death and no not shall-find it, and shall-desire to-die and shall-flee the death from them.
7 And the shapes of-the locusts like-unto horses prepared into battle, and upon the heads of-them like victor’s-wreaths similar-to gold, and the faces of-them like faces of-men,
8 And they-had hair like hair of-women, and the teeth of-them like of-lions were,
9 And they-had thoraxes like thoraxes of-iron, and the sound of-the wings of-them like a-sound of-chariots of-horses many running into battle,
10 And they-had tails similar-to scorpions and stings, and in the tails of-them the authority of-them to-hurt the men months five,
11 They-had upon them a-king of-the messenger of-the bottomless, a-name of-him in-Hebrew “Abaddown,” and in the Greek a-name he-has, “Apolluon.”
12 The grief-cry the first is-over; look! There-are-coming more two grief-cries after these-things.

Anglicizing the order and the possessives a bit and making some synonym substitutions:

1 And the fifth messenger sounded; and I-saw a-star fall out-from the sky into the ground, and the key of-the bottomless pit was-given to-him (it).
2 And he (it) opened the bottomless pit, and a-smoke arose out-from the pit like a-smoke from-a huge furnace, and the sun and the air were-darkened from-the smoke from-out of-the pit.
3 and out-from the smoke there-came locusts into the ground, and was-given unto-them a-venom like [the]-venom the scorpions of-the ground have.
4 And they were-ordered that they-should not hurt the grass of-the ground, nor any green-thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have God’s seal upon their foreheads.
5 And it-was-given to-them that they-should not kill them, but that they-should-suffer five months, and their suffering [is] like [the]-suffering of-a-scorpion when it-strikes a-man.
6 And in those days men shall-seek death and shall not find it, and [they] shall-desire to-die and death shall-allude them.
7 And the shapes of-the locusts like-unto of-horses prepared into battle, and upon their heads like victor’s-wreaths similar-to gold, and their faces like faces of-men,
8 And they-had hair like hair of-women, and the mandibles of-them were like [teeth] of-lions,
9 And they-had thoraxes like thoraxes of-iron, and the sound of-their wings like a-sound of many horses of chariots running into battle,
10 And they-had tails similar-to scorpions and stingers, and their venom in their tails to-hurt men five months,
11 They-had a-king over them, the messenger from-the bottomless [pit], his-name in-Hebrew “Abaddown,” and in the Greek he-has [the]-name, “Apolluon.”
12 The first cry-of-grief is-over; look! There-are-coming two more cries-of-grief after these-things.

First, a “star” (Greek: astera above) simply means a “strewn object,” in other words the “stars” were “strewn” across the sky like wheat seeds are strewn or scattered over a field. It implies nothing about an actual star as we now define a star, namely “a huge ball of hydrogen and helium constantly in the process of nuclear fusion giving off huge amounts of radiation covering the spectrum of light from cosmic rays to heat.” No, any object which can be seen from the earth could be considered a “star,” just as we have called chunks of reflective rocks between Mars and Jupiter “asteroids,” meaning “star-like objects,” or as we have called meteors “shooting stars” or “falling stars.” In fact, this object falling from the sky and striking the ground makes it, by definition, a “meteorite.”

Second, “bottomless” just means the pit has never been explored to the bottom; it is “unsounded.”

Third, I believe that the “key” is really the “key coordinates” and/or the “key force” needed to open this unsounded pit.

Fourth, these locusts have the venom of scorpions. More on this later.

Fifth, these locusts are not interested in eating anything green! Typical locusts, when they are swarming, will strip the land of any edible plants, but not these locusts. I believe they will tend to be carnivorous, but will not have the means by which to get their sustenance. Thus, they will be ravenous and frustrated as they continually try to EAT human beings. Instead, all they will be able to do is inflict pain. Even their stings, although toxic and painful, are not lethal.

Sixth, these locusts are doomed to survive and inflict pain for only five months, but for those suffering their stings, they will be a LONG five months.

Seventh, these locusts are an unusual breed with stingers in their extended abdomens, their “tails.” They look like locusts—or a form of arthropod similar to grasshoppers—but they have that stinger like a scorpion has that sets them apart.

(It reminds me of the stingers in the abdomens of the giant spiders that both Bilbo Baggins and Frodo Baggins faced in the books by J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, respectively. Spiders don’t have stingers in their abdomens like bees and wasps have, but these monster spiders did. Spiders normally have their poison in glands that are connected to their mandibles, and it is their BITE that disables their victims. It is their spinnerets that are located at the tip of their abdomens.)

Eighth, a puzzling aspect of verse 6 is when people desire death only to have it elude them. The question used to come to my mind, "How is this accomplished? Does God actually suspend death for five months?" That would certainly be possible and within the ability of God, but then it occurred to me on January 3, 1993, to look up how the poison of scorpions affects someone. In the book Insects of the World, on page 11, J.E. Remington said, "However, there are a few species, especially in northern Mexico and northern Africa, that inject nerve poisons." (Emphasis mine.) The answer would then appear to be that of nerve dysfunction—people are literally immobilized and incapacitated! They are paralyzed by the venom and are thus unable to affect their own deaths or to ask others to kill them for mercy's sake. The toxin, however, is not life threatening... just extremely painful! All of one's nerve endings would feel like they were on fire! People will wish they were dead, but will be unable to do anything about it! Apparently, the toxin will wear off in time, but not before it’s taken its toll on the victim.

Ninth, they are said to be decked out like horses arrayed for battle. With mandibles like lions’ teeth, stingers in their abdomens, wings and thoraxes of iron, they are formidable creatures!

Tenth, the victor’s wreaths of gold, I believe, refer to their antennae, yellow in color like gold. As victor’s wreaths, they will probably be shorter than the antennae of other species like the katydid, for instance.

Eleventh, I was always puzzled by the “faces of men” vs the “teeth of lions” phenomenon. How could they appear to have faces of men with monstrous teeth like that? Then, I looked at pictures of the bald locust in a text book. It’s simple really. The lines and creases of the front of the locust’s head can look like the eyes and nose and mouth of a person while the mandibles are at the bottom of the head. The actual compound eyes of the locust is toward the top of the head and on the sides of the head.

Twelfth, one may assume that the hair of women would be on the top of the locust’s head, but that may not be true. The “hair of women,” I believe has to do with the length and fineness of the hair, but the hair may be all over the head AND body of the locust. Fine hairs can be seen on species of locust today.

Thirteenth, they are said to have thoraxes (the actual Greek word) like thoraxes of iron. That doesn’t actually mean they were made of iron, but they were made of tough chitin as hard to pierce as iron! Their exoskeletons will be so strong as to make them virtually indestructible.

Fourteenth, apparently these creatures are much larger than common locusts today. Just as the antediluvian dragonfly had a wingspread of 2 to 2-1/2 feet, these locusts had wings that thrummed like many horses pulling chariots running into battle! That’s a low-pitched sound for insect wings indicating that the wings were much larger than normal. And, with mandibles that looked like lion’s teeth, and the front of their heads looking like the faces of men and with long, fine hair like women’s hair, these creatures will have to be very big compared to the current species of locusts.

Finally, both the Hebrew word “Abaddown” and the Greek word “Apolluon” mean “Destroyed,” NOT “Destroyer!” That’s important! It does NOT mean that this is another couple of names for Satan! The names imply this king’s doom; it is destined to be destroyed. That is why the locusts merely survive five months. After five long months, the species will die from lack of nourishment: Since this species has a king, much as ants and bees have a queen, when the king dies, the others will die soon afterward. The name of their king, "Destruction," suggests both the results and the fate of this species.

Anyway, that’s what I believe about the locusts.

In the Messiah’s love,
Roy



sureclarity -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/28/2009 5:49:44 AM)

Fifth, these locusts are not interested in eating anything green! Typical locusts, when they are swarming, will strip the land of any edible plants, but not these locusts. I believe they will tend to be carnivorous, but will not have the means by which to get their sustenance. Thus, they will be ravenous and frustrated as they continually try to EAT human beings. Instead, all they will be able to do is inflict pain. Even their stings, although toxic and painful, are not lethal.

Eighth, a puzzling aspect of verse 6 is when people desire death only to have it elude them.

Interesting read. When I read it, these verses imply to me (1) there is nothing green to eat … the land is destroyed (we see that today where there is nothing green at all on the land in some places). Locusts today will fly at - and sting people - so locusts stinging people is not really that unusual. Perhaps people will just get caught in the fly-by crossfire? Maybe … (2) verse 6 could imply that medical intervention will prolong the agony while stepping in to help. This we also see today: people kept alive that do not wish to be kept alive. Kind of like medical guinea pigs. These are just MPO based on what is already a reality today.

~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/



sureclarity -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/28/2009 5:56:28 AM)

The locusts referred to could also be war machines .. which the ancient people could not have understood when given the vision of them. Many of our military war machines today are patterned after animals ...so it's not that far-fetched.

~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/



Knight_Of_God -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/28/2009 11:44:52 AM)

wow i read what you said about the locusts and being hidden and everything but like it says and you read before, the locusts have a distinguised look bodys of lions, heads of man crowns and hair like women breast plates and wings with scorpion tails, i was thinking they might look like that scary huh



Retrobyter -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/29/2009 1:36:46 AM)

Shalom, Knight_Of_God.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knight_Of_God

wow i read what you said about the locusts and being hidden and everything but like it says and you read before, the locusts have a distinguised look bodys of lions, heads of man crowns and hair like women breast plates and wings with scorpion tails, i was thinking they might look like that scary huh


Be careful! I never said they had "bodies of lions"; they will have TEETH like lion's teeth--sharp, powerful mandibles! They are locusts after all; therefore, they will have the bodies of locusts--like giant grasshoppers! They also don't have the "heads of man"; they have the FACES of men but their heads are locust heads! Only the FRONT of their heads will look like human faces.

Here's basically what they will look like: National Geographic: locusts.

Only much bigger, of course. .... Oh, yes, and with scorpion tails (scorpions are shown on the same page above).

In the Messiah's love,
Roy



sureclarity -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/29/2009 4:52:06 AM)

Revelation 9:1 – 11 … as seen from the viewpoint of a military brat’s perspective as well as the Aunt of a retired military jet pilot :-)

Lucifer is the “star” that fell from heaven; it has already happened (Rev. 1:1).

The “key” was given to him by Yeshua (Rev. 1:18), BUT his power is limited! He can only do what God allows.

Lucifer is “leader” over the locusts (Rev. 9:1:1); “The locusts have no king, yet they go forth all of them by bands” (Proverbs 30:27). This is not a normal locust plague (Rev. 9: 2 - 3), it is demonic activity commandeered by Lucifer; who considers himself king of the earth (Rev. 9:3 – 10).

The locusts’ activity is limited to 5 months by the permissive Will of God (Rev. 9:3 & 5).

Revelation 9: 7 – 9 describes a war machine (perhaps not even built yet – perhaps built and not yet revealed to the public): “And the shape s of the locusts were like horses armed for battle” (Rev. 9:7). In ancient days, war horses were draped with armored plates to protect them from weapons during the heat of battle.

…“and on their heads were as it were crowns of gold” (Rev. 9:7). This could imply a national insignia. Or the mounting for propeller blades.

…“and their faces were like the faces of men” (Rev. 9:7). This could very well describe the face of a helicopter type war machine. Or Revelation 9:7 could be describing a great army force. God calls the locust plague of Joel a “mighty nation”.

Revelation 9:8 says “And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions”. This image could convey rebellion (long hair on men is a show of a rebellious streak) … or sexual perversion (again long hair on a male could indicate effeminate inclinations ... and there are masculine female pilots today: not being a sexist, just pointing out what hair possibly implies) … or wild men from unruly nations (which takes us back to an unrestrained character). The imagery of teeth shows the ferocity in which they carry out their destruction (Joel 1:6).

Revelation 9:9 says “And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle”. This is a clear picture of a war machine – well armored and indicative of great speed: people will feel powerless against them.

Revelation 9:10 says “And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tail: and their power was to hurt men for 5 months". Again, this is descriptive of a war machine, not an insect.

The locusts are clearly demonic beings, and the weapon at their disposal is war machinery.

~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/



Retrobyter -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/29/2009 2:11:44 PM)

Shalom, sureclarity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sureclarity

Revelation 9:1 – 11 … as seen from the viewpoint of a military brat’s perspective as well as the Aunt of a retired military jet pilot :-)

Lucifer is the “star” that fell from heaven; it has already happened (Rev. 1:1).

The “key” was given to him by Yeshua (Rev. 1:18), BUT his power is limited! He can only do what God allows.

Lucifer is “leader” over the locusts (Rev. 9:1:1); “The locusts have no king, yet they go forth all of them by bands” (Proverbs 30:27). This is not a normal locust plague (Rev. 9: 2 - 3), it is demonic activity commandeered by Lucifer; who considers himself king of the earth (Rev. 9:3 – 10).

The locusts’ activity is limited to 5 months by the permissive Will of God (Rev. 9:3 & 5).

Revelation 9: 7 – 9 describes a war machine (perhaps not even built yet – perhaps built and not yet revealed to the public): “And the shape s of the locusts were like horses armed for battle” (Rev. 9:7). In ancient days, war horses were draped with armored plates to protect them from weapons during the heat of battle.

…“and on their heads were as it were crowns of gold” (Rev. 9:7). This could imply a national insignia. Or the mounting for propeller blades.

…“and their faces were like the faces of men” (Rev. 9:7). This could very well describe the face of a helicopter type war machine. Or Revelation 9:7 could be describing a great army force. God calls the locust plague of Joel a “mighty nation”.

Revelation 9:8 says “And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions”. This image could convey rebellion (long hair on men is a show of a rebellious streak) … or sexual perversion (again long hair on a male could indicate effeminate inclinations ... and there are masculine female pilots today: not being a sexist, just pointing out what hair possibly implies) … or wild men from unruly nations (which takes us back to an unrestrained character). The imagery of teeth shows the ferocity in which they carry out their destruction (Joel 1:6).

Revelation 9:9 says “And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle”. This is a clear picture of a war machine – well armored and indicative of great speed: people will feel powerless against them.

Revelation 9:10 says “And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tail: and their power was to hurt men for 5 months". Again, this is descriptive of a war machine, not an insect.

The locusts are clearly demonic beings, and the weapon at their disposal is war machinery.

~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/


Don't give haSatan any more credit (or blame) than he deserves! The blowing of this shofar is GOD'S judgment on men!

"Abaddown" does not mean the "Destroyer"; it means "Destruction." It refers to his OWN demise, his OWN doom.

The star (Greek: astera from asteer meaning "strewn object") is just a "heavenly body," a meteor, that strikes the earth, a meteorite. Originally, it was just one of those thousands of points of light scattered over the night sky, like wheat seeds are scattered over a field.

Again, the "key" (Greek: kleis meaning "a key," literally or figuratively) is the word that should be taken figuratively here, not "astera." Specifically, it is "hee kleis tou freatos tees abussou" or "the key of-the pit of-the no-bottom" or "the key of the bottomless pit." Now, how can you have a "key" to something that doesn't have a "keyhole?" The answer is simple: it's not a "key" like we use in our front doors; it's the "key LOCATION" where the meteorite hits that can crack the pit open!

And, DON'T get me started on that "permissive will of God" garbage! That's baloney! There is absolutely NO SUCH THING as the "permissive will of God!" YUCK! THAT noise causes NOTHING BUT TROUBLE! We could start a new thread on that if you'd like, but it doesn't deserve to side-track this thread.

What's an arthropod's exoskeleton if not "armor plating?" The Scriptures call them "locusts" (Greek: akrides) because that's what they are.

The "crowns like gold" (Greek: stefanoi homoioi chrusoo) upon their heads were yellow and glittering victor's wreaths! It was their antennae, yellow in color and covered in glittering chitin that caught the light of the sun as they moved, as the shells of beetles do!

"Locust" is a broad term in the Bible for any arthropod, and there are some FORMIDABLE types of "locusts!" For instance, the katydid! Did you know there are varieties of katydids that are every bit as predaceous as praying mantises? Check out this interchange: katydid discussion

Or, check out this pdf article: entnemdept.ufl.edu/walker/buzz/s104lw97a.pdf.

Here's the view of the front of the grasshopper's head: drawing of a grasshopper's head.

Notice that the area from the Clypeus downward could look somewhat like the face of a man under a helmet. The "eyes" of a humanoid face would be in the first folds of the clypeus, and the crease in the middle of the labrum could look like a wide "mouth." The "nose" would be in the projection at the bottom of the clypeus just before the labrum starts. Of course, its actual jaws and mandibles would open from below the labrum (under the "chin" of the humanoid face), the sides of the mandibles sticking out from either side of the clypeus and the labrum.

Now, about the hair: If you look at this picture carefully, you will see small hairs growing from this grasshopper all over his head and his body, too. These fine hairs on a much larger specimen will be much more visible and much longer. I believe they will be as long as women's hair and yet retain their fineness.

We don't have to get fanciful as to what these locusts represent! They indeed easily can be REAL locusts!

In the Messiah's love,
Roy



sureclarity -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/30/2009 5:24:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sureclarity

Revelation 9:1 – 11 … as seen from the viewpoint of a military brat’s perspective as well as the Aunt of a retired military jet pilot :-)

Lucifer is the “star” that fell from heaven; it has already happened (**Correction of this morning’s misprint - Rev. 9:1**).

The “key” was given to him by Yeshua (Rev. 1:18), BUT his power is limited! He can only do what God allows.

Lucifer is “leader” over the locusts (Rev. 9:1:1); “The locusts have no king, yet they go forth all of them by bands” (Proverbs 30:27). This is not a normal locust plague (Rev. 9: 2 - 3), it is demonic activity commandeered by Lucifer; who considers himself king of the earth (Rev. 9:3 – 10).

The locusts’ activity is limited to 5 months by the permissive Will of God (Rev. 9:3 & 5).

Revelation 9: 7 – 9 describes a war machine (perhaps not even built yet – perhaps built and not yet revealed to the public): “And the shape s of the locusts were like horses armed for battle” (Rev. 9:7). In ancient days, war horses were draped with armored plates to protect them from weapons during the heat of battle.

…“and on their heads were as it were crowns of gold” (Rev. 9:7). This could imply a national insignia. Or the mounting for propeller blades.

…“and their faces were like the faces of men” (Rev. 9:7). This could very well describe the face of a helicopter type war machine. Or Revelation 9:7 could be describing a great army force. God calls the locust plague of Joel a “mighty nation”.

Revelation 9:8 says “And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions”. This image could convey rebellion (long hair on men is a show of a rebellious streak) … or sexual perversion (again long hair on a male could indicate effeminate inclinations ... and there are masculine female pilots today: not being a sexist, just pointing out what hair possibly implies) … or wild men from unruly nations (which takes us back to an unrestrained character). The imagery of teeth shows the ferocity in which they carry out their destruction (Joel 1:6).

Revelation 9:9 says “And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle”. This is a clear picture of a war machine – well armored and indicative of great speed: people will feel powerless against them.

Revelation 9:10 says “And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tail: and their power was to hurt men for 5 months". Again, this is descriptive of a war machine, not an insect.

The locusts are clearly demonic beings, and the weapon at their disposal is war machinery.

~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/


Roy wrote: Don't give haSatan any more credit (or blame) than he deserves! The blowing of this shofar is GOD'S judgment on men!

Lucifer is the “star” that fell from heaven; it has already happened (**Correction of this morning’s misprint - Rev. 9:1**). Yes; the blowing of the Shofar is God’s call to judgment, however, do not assume to know HOW GOD WILL BRING IT ABOUT :-) Scripture tells us that GOD is in CONTROL OF EVERYTHING that happens, so it stands to reason that Lucifer and his horde of demons can DO NOTHING without GOD’S CONSENT. I give nothing to Lucifer – but I acknowledge God’s hand in everything …

Lucifer is called the “morning star” in Isaiah 14:12, however it is a perversion of the original word used. Lucifer is the Latin version if the Hebrew term Heyleel (hey-LEYL) which means “shining one.” The term translated "Lucifer" does NOT at all mean "morning star" or "star of the morning." That would be two totally different Hebrew words. In Greek it's "heosphoros," “light-bearer.” In Latin it's translated "Lucifer," light-bearer. Whether you say "heylel," "heosphoros" or "lucifer," the meaning is the same: "light-bearer." But only Lucifer communicates who we are talking about in English.

Isaiah 14:12-15 tells us what God says about the “star” that fell to earth: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”

Lucifer is also an ‘angel’, that went horribly rouge. God tells us this in Ezekiel 14 & 28.

Roy wrote: "Abaddown" does not mean the "Destroyer"; it means "Destruction." It refers to his OWN demise, his OWN doom.

Splitting hairs is a waste of time; the Hebrew root of the word used is in verb form and it means “to perish.” I am not going to haggle over a word that is debatable in usage. The point is that in this reference, it is understandably applied to Lucifer no matter how it is used. Angel of the Bottomless Pit (Revelation 9:11), Abaddon (Revelation 9:11), Apollyon (Revelation 9:11) Angel of Light (2 Corinthians 11:14), Anointed Covering Cherub (Ezekiel 28), AntiChrist (1 John 4:3) … they are all the “star that fell to earth”. FYI, Lucifer cannot destroy himself, else he would already have done so. He works at destroying mankind because he can. Only God can destroy Lucifer – and He will, in His own timing, as He wishes. Lucifer can do nothing without God’s allowing it (Job 1).

Roy wrote: The star (Greek: astera from asteer meaning "strewn object") is just a "heavenly body," a meteor, that strikes the earth, a meteorite. Originally, it was just one of those thousands of points of light scattered over the night sky, like wheat seeds are scattered over a field.

A confusion of two different happenings … the souring of the star wormwood is not the same as the “fallen star” that will release the locusts. The distinctions are very clear to anyone who reads Scripture correctly.[/size]

Roy wrote: Again, the "key" (Greek: kleis meaning "a key," literally or figuratively) is the word that should be taken figuratively here, not "astera." Specifically, it is "hee kleis tou freatos tees abussou" or "the key of-the pit of-the no-bottom" or "the key of the bottomless pit." Now, how can you have a "key" to something that doesn't have a "keyhole?" The answer is simple: it's not a "key" like we use in our front doors; it's the "key LOCATION" where the meteorite hits that can crack the pit open!

Obviously there is a key, as Yeshua used it to release the faithful from Hades (not to be confused with Geheena) after his crucifixion … the key is real. Hades was a place of departed spirits (grave) where the dead are confined. This is described by Jesus as having two compartments divided by an uncrossible great gulf. On one side was Abraham's bossom where the righteous dead were confined and on the other side was a place of torment for the wicked dead (gehenna); this place no longer exists as now when the righteous die, they go straight to heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8). Jesus was crucified and died by which he would have entered "hell" that is "hades" - the place of the dead (Acts 2:27). Death and hell (the grave) had no power over him. He preached (proclaimed) to the righteous souls in "hell - hades" that he had taken the keys of death and the grave away from Satan and in his resurrection transfered the righteous dead from Abraham's bossom to the presence of God (heaven). Matthew 27:52 and Ephesians 4:8,9.

The bottomless pit (Tartaroo) is a real place – which has a very real keyhole. All authority in Heaven and on earth belong to Yeshua – God gave it to Him; Yeshua is Chief Commander of all Angelic Beings (Colossians 1:16). Yeshua holds the key (Revelation 1:18), and will give to the fallen star (Matthew 28:18 & Revelation 9:1) so the locusts will be released. Eden exists too: we just can’t see it because the four Guarding Angels have secured its location from mankind as God directed (3:24); the Tree of Life is in the midst of the garden (Genesis 3:3 & 22).

Royy wrote: And, DON'T get me started on that "permissive will of God" garbage! That's baloney! There is absolutely NO SUCH THING as the "permissive will of God!" YUCK! THAT noise causes NOTHING BUT TROUBLE! We could start a new thread on that if you'd like, but it doesn't deserve to side-track this thread.

Lucifer can only go so far my friend :-) It may annoy you to no end … but it is God’s truth nonetheless: Job 1 (actually ALL of Job is a good analogy for the Tribulation period); 1 Peter 5:10; 1 Corinthians 10:13. It is obvious the Lucifer boldly parades himself before God boasting of his devilish exploits and mocking God. BUT GOD WILL HAVE THE LAST WORD in the end. We are assured of this. Lucifer can only do what God permits him to do.

Roy wrote: We don't have to get fanciful as to what these locusts represent! They indeed easily can be REAL locusts!

I do not consider the Word of God “fanciful”. Throughout Yeshua’s ministry as He walked among mankind, He used metaphors and riddling parables when speaking to His Own of the things of Father God; there is no mystery to those who have understanding. The locusts are in all probability NOT LOCUSTS as assumed. We are to be wise, discerning, and understanding of prophecy and its meanings. The Scriptures EXPLAIN EVERYTHING IF WE – UNDER THE TUTELAGE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT - STAY IN THEM AND VEER NOT. The New Covenant parallels the Old Covenant, and together they give a while picture of what it is God wants us to understand. If you want to read insect into the Revelation, fine; I choose to take God’s Word for what it is. He has already given us the wisdom we need to interpret the vision in the Scriptures above :-)



Retrobyter -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/30/2009 12:32:52 PM)

Shabbat shalom (soon), sureclarity.

Okay, obviously this is going nowhere; so, I'm just going to point out a few things I've learned from studies and then drop it.

If you want to follow the prevailing and pervading theological theories, go ahead. No one's stopping you. I've learned after 52 years of life, 46 of which have been as a believer, that I don't need them. I've heard a myriad of sermons down through my life from both my father (a Baptist minister who started a church before I was born) and the evangelists, preachers, teachers, and missionaries he invited to speak at missions conferences, prophecy conferences, and special events. So, I've heard a BUNCH of theories, not the least of which is the "could have been misunderstood modern machines" theory. The problem is that in MOST (if not ALL) of these theories, one has to do a little "reading into" the Scriptures something that isn't there in the original texts. Whenever one does some "reading into" the Scriptures, he or she is using "eisegesis," an erroneous way of interpreting Scriptures. As much as is humanly possible, we should be doing the opposite: "exegesis," or letting the Scriptures speak to us. We should never try to cram Scriptures into our "box" of how we look at theology; instead, we should be allowing the Scriptures to flow out to us, developing our thoughts, however slowly, into a unique take. If it happens to fit with others' views, fine, but I'm too old now to worry about that anymore. Life's too short as it is to complicate it by worrying about what others think.

In my short life, God has opened my eyes to some basic definitions, some basic truths from Scripture that have COMPLETELY altered my Biblical perspective:

First and foremost, the definition of "heaven" is NOT some ethereal, otherworldly, supernatural place beyond the stars. It is the natural sky around our planet, particularly the atmosphere.
Second, the definition of "angel" (Greek: aggelos) is NOT some supernatural being; it simply means "messenger" (like "mal'ak" in Hebrew does) and it MAY refer to a supernatural messenger, but it also refers to HUMAN messengers! Be careful not to think that every time you see the word "angel" it means a "supernatural messenger!"

First, consider the Greek of Matthew 16:1-4:

Matt 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

Did you know that the SAME GREEK WORD is used for both "heaven" in verse 1 and "sky" in verses 2 and 3 (the boldface typed words above)? And yet, in EVERY English version of the Bible the connection is never seen! Why is that?

The Greek word is "ouranos" and of the words that were translated 274 times as "heaven" or "heavens" in the NT, this is the word that was so translated 260 times as "heaven" or "heavens" (and once as "heavenly"). Thirteen times, it was translated as "air" or "sky." So, why are we never taught that the word "heaven" means "sky?" I'll tell you why; it's to keep the MYTH of "Heaven" going!

Furthermore, on a practical level, no area above the sky "is red and lowering!" To me that is a very clear indication that we are talking about the sky or the atmosphere around our planet.

There ARE other Greek words that are used in the Bible that were translated "heaven" or "heavenly" or "heavenlies." These words are "mesouraneema," "ouranios," "ouranothen," and "epouranios." ALL of these words are combinatory words using "ouranos" and prefixes, infixes, or suffixes to change the meaning of the original word. "Mesouraneema" means "in the middle of the [ouranos]." "Ouranios" means "of or belonging to the [ouranos]." "Ouranothen" means "from the [ouranos]." And, "epouranios" means "of or belonging to above the [ouranos]."

Now, let's see where some of these words were used:

Mesouraneema:
It was only used three times and all three were in Revelation: Rev. 8:13; 14:6; and 19:17. Here they are:

Rev 8:13
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
KJV

Rev 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
KJV

Rev 19:17-18
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
KJV

Since 8:13 and 14:6 may be inconclusive referring to "angels," which may be supernatural messengers as well as human messengers, because they could theoretically fly above the atmosphere, we must look to 19:17 as the limiting factor. Birds CANNOT fly above the atmosphere; therefore, this word "mesouraneema" MUST be talking about the "middle of the atmosphere" or the "middle of the sky," and not the "middle of outer space" or some other such nonsense.

In EVERY occurrence of the other words, ouranios and ouranothen, it can be shown that the words can (and should) refer to the sky rather than some place called "Heaven" out beyond the stars.

Only ONE word, epouranios, can refer to somewhere above the sky or as we would call it, "outer space" or just "space," for short. It was used only 19 times in Scripture:

John 3:12;
I Cor. 15:40 (twice), 48 (twice), 29;
Eph. 1:3, 20; 2:6; 3:10; 6:12;
Phil. 2:10;
2 Tim. 4:18;
Heb. 3:1; 6:4; 8:5; 9:23; 11:16; and 12:22.

That's it. Those are the ONLY times in all the NT that this particular word was used. Thus, ONLY in these references could we be talking about anything ABOVE the sky, (unless context dictates otherwise). For context to dictate otherwise, other Greek words must be used in conjunction with one of the other Greek words MEANING the "sky" to show that what is intended is not just the "sky." For instance, Rev. 9:1:

Rev 9:1
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
KJV

Rev 9:1
1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.
NIV

The Greek is…
9:1 Kai ho pemptos aggelos esalpisen: kai eidon astera ek tou ouranou peptookota eis teen geen, kai edothee autoo hee kleis tou freatos tees abussou.
Literally, this translates word-for-word to...
9:1 And the fifth messenger sounded: and I-saw a-star (a masculine word) out of-the sky fall into the ground, and was-given to-it (masculine) the key of-the pit of-the no-bottom.

To be correct, a masculine antecedent must take masculine pronouns. Thus, the fact that "autoo" (sometimes translated as "to him") is masculine does NOT mean that we are talking about a person with a masculine gender! It is just a THING with the Greek masculine gender. This happens quite a bit in languages that ascribe genders of masculine and feminine to objects, such as French, Spanish, Italian, and indeed all of the Romance languages. It doesn't mean that those objects are indeed masculine or feminine; it's a fluke of the LANGUAGE!

For instance, "gato" is "cat" in Spanish. Just because "gato" is a masculine word doesn't mean that all cats are masculine! Understand? It's the same way in Greek. Just because "asteer" is a masculine word doesn't mean that this THING is masculine!

Anyway, I've said enough. Take it or leave it.

In the Messiah's love,
Roy



sureclarity -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/30/2009 7:12:12 PM)

quote:

Okay, obviously this is going nowhere; so, I'm just going to point out a few things I've learned from studies and then drop it.


Well, I thought it was an exchange of thoughts ... I was wrong I guess. Sorry you are upset that I am not being convinced to your way of thinking. I am a mature 53 years old and have been following Yeshua since I was 8 years old. I am always willing to listen to another's view, but I will not be bullied into their mindset simply because I am a woman. I have explained why I believe what I believe - you have told me why it is wrong. I have not complained; I merely said I did not see it that way and have given Scriptures as to why. There is no reason to be disgruntled. I enjoy the study of and the discussion Prophecy; it appeared you did to. No one is forcing you to reply; if you do reply you naturally open yourself up to disagreement - I disagree.

I accept your invite to “leave” the idea of the locusts being insects. Thank you for your discourse. I would like to say though in the parting of our minds, that people who over study a subject usually lose focus. I am not saying that is the case as far as the insect study goes, just saying ...

Shalom.

~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/



Retrobyter -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/31/2009 2:30:59 AM)

Shabbat shalom, sureclarity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sureclarity

Well, I thought it was an exchange of thoughts ... I was wrong I guess. Sorry you are upset that I am not being convinced to your way of thinking. I am a mature 53 years old and have been following Yeshua since I was 8 years old. I am always willing to listen to another's view, but I will not be bullied into their mindset simply because I am a woman. I have explained why I believe what I believe - you have told me why it is wrong. I have not complained; I merely said I did not see it that way and have given Scriptures as to why. There is no reason to be disgruntled. I enjoy the study of and the discussion Prophecy; it appeared you did to. No one is forcing you to reply; if you do reply you naturally open yourself up to disagreement - I disagree.

I accept your invite to “leave” the idea of the locusts being insects. Thank you for your discourse. I would like to say though in the parting of our minds, that people who over study a subject usually lose focus. I am not saying that is the case as far as the insect study goes, just saying ...

Shalom.

~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/

No one is trying to "bully" you into believing anything! Whatever you choose to believe is fine with me. I just don't like it when I find someone who has been brain-washed into believing a certain way such that there is no discussion past a certain point. See, I don't care what gender you are; it makes no difference to me. I've learned that some of the smartest people I know are female. The only difference I've been able to detect between male and female is that females are much more capable of multi-tasking than are males. Males are more single-minded and compartmentalized. Believe me, as a male I am single-minded and have not lost sight of my focus. Forgive me for my shortness and lack of patience.

See, when I was going to Bible college, I've had discussions with a few people that always seemed to end in a close-minded way, but without the freedom to explore other possibilities, there's no growing! My second year of college was hard on me, but I grew the most during that time. I was already starting to ask the hard questions, like how do we know that our interpretations of the Bible are correct? How can we be sure that we are standing on truth? Then, my dad--the preacher--left my mom and ran off with the church secretary. The whole mess shook my faith to the foundation. I ended up throwing out everything I thought I knew, and started to rebuild from scratch. I can remember being in the choir room of my church, gritting my teeth, and crying out to God that I knew for sure only two things. 1) There IS a God and He has communicated to human beings through His Word, the Bible, and 2) that I had a relationship with Him and was His child. Everything else had to be proved, and I began by searching the Scriptures to confirm or deny the various definitions I had learned from infancy.

It's been a long haul up a steep slope, but God has been good, and I believe that He has directed me along the way giving me key concepts upon which I could build other thoughts. I am an independent thinker now. I used to be so cookie-cutter independent Baptist, that you could barely have been able to tell a difference between me and Tim LaHaye in our beliefs, as far as prophecy and eschatology are concerned. I could have written the Left Behind series if I had had a writer like Jerry B. Jenkins on my side! That's how close my thinking was to his before my dad left. The only difference was that I believed, like my father taught, that once the Church had been raptured out of this earth to Heaven, the rest of humanity would "believe the lie," and no one from that point on could be saved.

All that happened when I was 19 or 20 years old. For the next 26 years, I was learning--slowly changing my thoughts from things where I once was rigid and unshakable to other revelations that God put in my way. One by one, I acquired new definitions for the common rhetoric I used to say. I understand "spirit" and "soul" differently now. I understand "church" differently than before. I have new definitions of "angel" and "devil" and "demon" and "heaven" and "hell" and "salvation" and "gospel" and so many other such words. Yet, I still believe staunchly in the correct way to be justified by God, I just can't use the old words like I used to use them.

I had been studying Greek since Bible college, but I had always wanted to learn Hebrew as well. I learned the Hebrew alefbet as a child, studying the sections of Psalm 119 during the sermons (when I was supposed to be listening). We had an old family Bible that had Young's Concordance with Greek and Hebrew dictionaries in it, and I began to study the words, trying to make sense of the words and the structure. I learned on my own that Hebrew was written from right to left from the Tetragrammaton! I bought a two-tape language system for Hebrew called "Tutor-Tape Israel" and began learning conversational Hebrew. Slowly, I came to realize that all the letters of the Hebrew alefbet were consonants, and that for newbies, vowel pointing was added to represent vowel sounds between those consonants. All the while, I kept studying the Word of God in BOTH Testaments. It wasn't until Bible college that I bought a Strong's Concordance. I started to learn the vocabulary for Greek and Hebrew for the passages that I was studying at the time. I would look up everything! After all, I grew up enjoying reading dictionaries and encyclopedias while other kids were playing football, basketball, and baseball!

Over the last six years or so, God has weaned me away from the Baptist churches, and I discovered a Messianic congregation to which I now belong. It was an amazing time for me; I will never forget seeing the liturgy projected on the screen in both Hebrew and English! I will never forget the thrill and the goosebumps of hearing Paul Wilbur sing "Days of Elijah" for the first time! When we got to the chorus and we started to sing, "Behold! He comes! Riding on the clouds! Shining like the sun! At the trumpet call...," and several people in the congregation cut loose blowing their shofars, I was floored! That's not the way the Baptists sing! I was crying tears of joy and excitement at the end of that song!

But as much as I have been learning, even taking Hebrew classes at the synagogue learning the grammar as well as the vocabulary, I'm not 100% in agreement with the various theological points of the Messianic congregations, either. As I said, I'm an independent thinker. But, so far, the Messianic congregation has been closer on many points than the Baptists were.

So, where does that leave us? I'm going to faithfully stick to the Greek and the Hebrew that I know and believe in literal locusts and a literal meteor shower that begins with the sixth seal and goes to the fifth trumpet (at least). I'm going to believe in a literal 1000 years because that's what the Greek says and means. I'm going to believe in a New Earth with its New Sky and the landing of Yerushalayim haChadashah (the New Jerusalem). I'm going to believe in the literal interpretation for MUCH of the book of Revelation, because in many cases, like the locusts, I believe that the only real reason for taking a figurative or allegorical interpretation of some parts of Revelation is because we don't understand the Greek that well!

Sorry to write so much, but I wanted you to understand where I'm coming from, and how this is no light matter for me. I want you to understand that I'm all for prophetic discussion and that I'm not opposed to bouncing ideas back and forth. I just want others to experience the freedom that comes with independent thinking, too.

In the Messiah's love,
Roy



sureclarity -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/31/2009 5:48:06 AM)

quote:

Sorry to write so much, but I wanted you to understand where I'm coming from, and how this is no light matter for me. I want you to understand that I'm all for prophetic discussion and that I'm not opposed to bouncing ideas back and forth. I just want others to experience the freedom that comes with independent thinking, too.


I have been called of God personally (literally as in physically) - baptized in the Holy Spirit and taught everything I know of God by the Spirit of God (confirmation is always backed up by another Spiritual Warrior; so you see I know what I speak of), consecrated for God's service exclusively. I have seen and experienced things that leave no doubt whatsoever as to the reality of God or the workings of God. I belong 100% to God. Not being prideful, just explaining where I am coming from and why I don't back up or back down when I speak on issues I know about. I do not hold a college degree, but like the fishermen Yeshua called into his service, I have a God-degree; I believe that trumps a worldly piece of paper :-)

Everything I say concerning Scripture is no light matter for me ... to use your own words ... because I speak as God desires me to speak; otherwise I am silent. I am not opposed to bouncing ideas back and forth either, and I do believe in independent thinking - however when one is stuck in a spin cycle, I find independent thinking has given way to a stubborn mindset that is no longer open to the possibilities God may be revealing. I have gone the insect route and find it greatly lacking in realities. I believe the locusts are a form of demonic activity.

I am not "stuck" on the war machines theory. But it does make more sense than mutated insects. After all, the timeframe would seem to take place during droughts and famines; in which case it is obvious that there is no green food stuffs and starvation would be rampant, for humans as well as insects. Carnivorous grasshoppers would be stretch any way you want to slice and dice the prophecy. It makes more sense to think of some sort of warfare: machine, biological, spiritual perversion, ect. I am not even saying that God has revealed this sequence to me: He hasn't ... probably because I will not be here when it is playing itself out (I will be with Yeshua at the Banquet of the Bride) ... but I do believe wisdom can be passed from one slice of time to another and I am open to the wisdom God wants to reveal at this time in our history when the AntiChrist may very well be walking among us. I am very independent in thought, but I am intolerant of foolish thinking. Stubbornness is foolishness. MPO.

It has also been my experience - sad to say - that among professed Christians, men shut down around women and treat them as addlebrained dimwits, forgetting that Yeshua surrounded himself with close women companions and treated them as equals in ministry. In fact He revealed Himself first to a woman after His body has been resurrected. It is the Apostles, many years later that regulated women back into the shadows of ministry. Shame on them! One must always balance what the Apostles say to the example of Yeshua. Men will be men, but God never falters; God honors women, man seems to continually repress them. And that is all I will say on the gender issue.

As to the literal meaning of Scripture; that is a personal choice, I personally believe that some things are literal and some things are a metaphor as Yeshua so clearly showed us in His ministry; metaphors are not a bad thing, and many wonderful truths are understood when one understands the concept the metaphors embrace. As to the "literal Hebrew and literal Greek", I take that with a grain of salt. Interpretations are prone to fault; written and studied. I cast all my understanding at the feet of Yeshua and ask guidance for the Holy Spirit in my understanding of the Scriptures; and I debate with other serious truth seekers. I find this method of understanding what it is the God wants me to know to be the safest and surest way to decipher God's meaning. It has never failed me. I do not get upset when others disagree with me - when the discussion has run its course I can move along without rancor. How the other person responds is up to them :-) Life is a constant study in action; when one stops learning, they are dying. MPO That is why I will never be "brainwashed" to a certain mindset. My mind is God's; ALL OF ME belongs to God to do with as He wishes. That is my freewill ... to allow God free access to all of me anytime he wants to use me.

I am a very focused person and straight-forward speaking (some see this as obstinate and rude. LOL) and since I have been that way all of my life, I am assuming that is God's Will for my life and everyone else will just have to accept it or move along. I have asked God to change my personality and he has not done so, which leads me to believe he is happy with me just the way I am. To apologize for that part of me would (to my way of thinking) would be akin to apologizing for God's lack of attention in that department of my life. I do not feel that God has failed me in any part of my life. Are there things I wish were different? You bet! Have I tried to change certain aspects of my life? Yes; and it has always been a dismal failure. So I have come to the conclusion that if I have done all I can do and people find offense on me, they will have to take that up with God because I already have and He has not seen fit to change me. I am happy with me and have had no complaints at all from God; man is not God. man is easily offended. God is not - THANK GOD!

Well, my husband just got home, so it's time for me to log off and wake the wolf to take her for her walk around the property with us .. and check the hens. If you are up to it, I would like more discussion. Prophecy is never a dull topic and it can be enjoyable. Shalom. I will check back after late Sunday.



Retrobyter -> RE: creatures of revlation (10/31/2009 11:17:23 AM)

Shabbat shalom, sureclarity, v'boqer towv.
quote:

ORIGINAL: sureclarity

quote:

Sorry to write so much, but I wanted you to understand where I'm coming from, and how this is no light matter for me. I want you to understand that I'm all for prophetic discussion and that I'm not opposed to bouncing ideas back and forth. I just want others to experience the freedom that comes with independent thinking, too.


I have been called of God personally (literally as in physically) - baptized in the Holy Spirit and taught everything I know of God by the Spirit of God (confirmation is always backed up by another Spiritual Warrior; so you see I know what I speak of), consecrated for God's service exclusively. I have seen and experienced things that leave no doubt whatsoever as to the reality of God or the workings of God. I belong 100% to God. Not being prideful, just explaining where I am coming from and why I don't back up or back down when I speak on issues I know about. I do not hold a college degree, but like the fishermen Yeshua called into his service, I have a God-degree; I believe that trumps a worldly piece of paper :-)

Everything I say concerning Scripture is no light matter for me ... to use your own words ... because I speak as God desires me to speak; otherwise I am silent. I am not opposed to bouncing ideas back and forth either, and I do believe in independent thinking - however when one is stuck in a spin cycle, I find independent thinking has given way to a stubborn mindset that is no longer open to the possibilities God may be revealing. I have gone the insect route and find it greatly lacking in realities. I believe the locusts are a form of demonic activity.

I am not "stuck" on the war machines theory. But it does make more sense than mutated insects. After all, the timeframe would seem to take place during droughts and famines; in which case it is obvious that there is no green food stuffs and starvation would be rampant, for humans as well as insects. Carnivorous grasshoppers would be stretch any way you want to slice and dice the prophecy. It makes more sense to think of some sort of warfare: machine, biological, spiritual perversion, ect. I am not even saying that God has revealed this sequence to me: He hasn't ... probably because I will not be here when it is playing itself out (I will be with Yeshua at the Banquet of the Bride) ... but I do believe wisdom can be passed from one slice of time to another and I am open to the wisdom God wants to reveal at this time in our history when the AntiChrist may very well be walking among us. I am very independent in thought, but I am intolerant of foolish thinking. Stubbornness is foolishness. MPO.

It has also been my experience - sad to say - that among professed Christians, men shut down around women and treat them as addlebrained dimwits, forgetting that Yeshua surrounded himself with close women companions and treated them as equals in ministry. In fact He revealed Himself first to a woman after His body has been resurrected. It is the Apostles, many years later that regulated women back into the shadows of ministry. Shame on them! One must always balance what the Apostles say to the example of Yeshua. Men will be men, but God never falters; God honors women, man seems to continually repress them. And that is all I will say on the gender issue.

As to the literal meaning of Scripture; that is a personal choice, I personally believe that some things are literal and some things are a metaphor as Yeshua so clearly showed us in His ministry; metaphors are not a bad thing, and many wonderful truths are understood when one understands the concept the metaphors embrace. As to the "literal Hebrew and literal Greek", I take that with a grain of salt. Interpretations are prone to fault; written and studied. I cast all my understanding at the feet of Yeshua and ask guidance for the Holy Spirit in my understanding of the Scriptures; and I debate with other serious truth seekers. I find this method of understanding what it is the God wants me to know to be the safest and surest way to decipher God's meaning. It has never failed me. I do not get upset when others disagree with me - when the discussion has run its course I can move along without rancor. How the other person responds is up to them :-) Life is a constant study in action; when one stops learning, they are dying. MPO That is why I will never be "brainwashed" to a certain mindset. My mind is God's; ALL OF ME belongs to God to do with as He wishes. That is my freewill ... to allow God free access to all of me anytime he wants to use me.

I am a very focused person and straight-forward speaking (some see this as obstinate and rude. LOL) and since I have been that way all of my life, I am assuming that is God's Will for my life and everyone else will just have to accept it or move along. I have asked God to change my personality and he has not done so, which leads me to believe he is happy with me just the way I am. To apologize for that part of me would (to my way of thinking) would be akin to apologizing for God's lack of attention in that department of my life. I do not feel that God has failed me in any part of my life. Are there things I wish were different? You bet! Have I tried to change certain aspects of my life? Yes; and it has always been a dismal failure. So I have come to the conclusion that if I have done all I can do and people find offense on me, they will have to take that up with God because I already have and He has not seen fit to change me. I am happy with me and have had no complaints at all from God; man is not God. man is easily offended. God is not - THANK GOD!

Well, my husband just got home, so it's time for me to log off and wake the wolf to take her for her walk around the property with us .. and check the hens. If you are up to it, I would like more discussion. Prophecy is never a dull topic and it can be enjoyable. Shalom. I will check back after late Sunday.


Hey! Who said anything about "MUTATED" insects? If these locusts are locusts indeed, then they are ANTEDILUVIAN insects trapped in the unsounded pit since the Global Flood during the upheaval of Noach's day. They are locusts as they were ORIGINALLY designed and created not these small things called "locusts" today. They will just have the same hunger that other carnivores gained after the Flood:

Gen 9:1-6
1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
KJV

See, in the original Creation, ALL the animals, human beings as well, were herbivores:

Gen 1:29-30
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
KJV

Despite all the claims of Evolution, they believe and say, "everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." (2 Peter 3:4, NIV) Today, we call this basic belief "uniformitarianism," and it is one of the founding pillars upon which Evolution was built. But, just as the dragonfly fossils we find suggest they originally had two- to three-foot wing spans, these locusts will also be comparably larger than their modern counterparts. If either of the two versions of locust are "mutated," it would be the modern version DEvolving from its original form! But, from Scripture we discover that even the huge Tyrannosaurus Rex was NOT originally a meat-eater! That only happened AFTER the Flood, which, I believe, is the reason that Nimrowd became "a mighty hunter before ADONAI!" I believe that it wasn't long after the Flood that mankind felt they HAD to drive certain species to extinction for survival! And IMO, THAT is what happened to the dinosaurs!

HOWEVER, on a more positive note, I also believe that when God RE-CREATES the New Earth and its New Sky in Isaiah 65:17, 2 Peter 3:13, and Revelation 21:1, He will also re-create the animals, including insects, He was thoughtful enough to design in all their varieties! I believe we WILL see dinosaurs again and they will be herbivores again as originally created, just as the lion will be:

Isa 11:6-10
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
KJV

Isa 65:25
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
KJV

See, I too believe in being led by the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) of Elohiym, but I also believe that He only speaks within the "confines" of His haD'briym haQodesh (His Holy Words), not that He is truly "confined," but that He will not say or do anything that is not in harmony with His Word! Thus, for us, it is a controlling principle that helps us "test the spirits to be sure they are from God." (I John 4:1)

Hope you and your husband have a wonderful, restful and delightful Shabbat,

Roy



sureclarity -> RE: creatures of revlation (11/3/2009 12:56:17 AM)

The "children of the east, the Arabians”, are compared to grasshoppers, or locusts:

And the Midianites and the Amalekites and all the children of the east lay along in the valley like grasshoppers for multitude; and their camels were without number, as the sand by the sea side for multitude.--Judges 7:12

Midianite--son of Abraham by Keturah and progenitor of the tribe of Midianites or Arabians; the territory of the tribe descended from Midian; located principally in the desert north of the Arabian Peninsula; land to which Moses went when he fled from Pharaoh--Strong's

Amalekites are the descendants of Esau.

grasshopper--Strong's 0697 'arbeh translated as locust 24 times in AV and 4 times as grasshopper (it is not clear here that the meaning is that on an insect; rather it carries the implication that it refers to a particular type of mankind.)

…and one of the names of a locust is, "Arbeh," not much unlike in sound to an Arab. To which may be added, that it is a tradition of the Arabians, that there fell locusts into the hands of Mohammad, on whose backs and wings were written these words;

"we are the army of the most high God; we are the ninety and nine eggs, and if the hundred should be made perfect, we should consume the whole world, and whatever is in it" …

And it was a law established by Mohammad, ye shall not kill the locusts, for they are the army of the most high God; and the Mahometans fancy that the locusts were made of the same clay as Adam was: and besides the tradition before mentioned, they say, that as Mohammad sat at table a locust fell, with these words on its back and wings;

"I am God, neither is there any Lord of the locusts besides me, who feed them; and when I please I send them to be food to the people, and when I please I send them to be a scourge unto them;"

...five months is the time that locusts live, and are in their strength and power, even the five, hottest months in the year, from April to September.

(The New John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible)

Among Mohammedans, "Lord of the locusts" is a title of God.

(Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible, 1871, Jamieson, Fausset and Brown)

Satan is known as “Lord of the Flies (or locusts)” in some cultures. To Christians, this reference would not be to God, but rather as a derogatory reference to Lucifer. MPO

Joel 1:2 &4 -

Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary:

1. palmerworm: a caterpillar that suddenly appears in great numbers devouring herbage.
2. locust: short-horned grasshopper; esp: a migratory grasshopper often traveling in vast swarms and stripping the areas passed of all vegetation; cicada.
3. cankerworm: either of two geometrid moths and esp. their larvae which are serious pests of forest and shade trees.
4. caterpillar: the elongated wormlike larva of a butterfly or moth; also: any of various similar larvae

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible

1. palmerworm: 1501 gazam; from an unused root meaning to devour
2. locust: 697 'arbeh; from 7235; a locust (from its rapid increase).
7235 rabah; a primitive root; to increase (in whatever respect).
3. cankerworm: 3218 yeleq; from an unused root meaning to lick up; a devourer; specifically the young locust.
4. caterpillar: 2625 chaciyl; from 2628; the ravager.

2628 chacal; a primitive root; to eat off:--consume.

Life Application Bible:

1. palmerworm: cutting locust
2. locust: swarming locust
3. cankerworm: hopping locust
4. caterpillar: destroying locust

Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament--Joel:

1. palmerworm: gnawer
2. locust: multiplier
3. cankerworm: licker
4. caterpillar: devourer

The New John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible:

1. Jerom relates...the Hebrews interpret the "palmer worm" of the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Chaldeans, who, coming from one climate of the world, destroyed both the ten and the two tribes, that is, all the people of Israel:

2. the locust they interpret of the Medes and Persians, who, having overturned the Chaldean empire, carried the Jews captive: [the area of the Medes and Persians at their height encompassed all or parts of: Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Israel, Egypt, Libya, Sudan, Ethiopia—see this link:

http://philologos.org/bpr/misc/taskforc.txt, dated February 10, 1998.

Persia is the old name for the southwest Asian country whose official name has been Iran since 1935. Formerly the two names were used interchangeably, and today the name "Persia" is still widely used as an alternate for "Iran."

In ancient times Persia was the center of an empire stretching from Egypt to the Indus River--one of the greatest empires in all history. It included within its boundaries all previous empires: those of the Egyptians, Babylonians, Assyrians, and Hittites. The later empire of Alexander the Great contained little territory not previously held by the Persians, and Alexander's empire was not so large as Persia under Darius. Even the Roman Empire had a smaller land area than the Persian (it was only larger if the Mediterranean Sea is included), although the Persians never achieved anything approaching the efficient Roman administration and control of conquered peoples.

For two and a half centuries, from its founding in the sixth century BC until its conquest by Alexander the Great in the fourth century BC, it was the dominant power of the ancient world.--Collier's Encyclopedia, 1963

3. the "canker worm" is the Macedonians, and all the successors of Alexander; especially King Antiochus, surnamed Epiphanes, who like a canker worm sat in Judea, and devoured all the remains of the former kings, under whom were the wars of the Maccabees:

4. the "caterpillar" they refer to the Roman empire, the fourth and last that oppressed the Jews, and drove them out of their borders.

5. This may point at the several invasions and incursions of the Chaldean army into Judea, under Nebuchadnezzar and his generals; first, when he came up against Jerusalem, and made Jehoiakim tributary to him;

6. a second time, when he carried Jehoiachin and his family into Babylon, with a multitude of the Jews, and their wealth;

7. a third time, when he besieged Jerusalem, and took it, and Zedekiah the king, and carried him captive;

8. and a fourth time, when Nebuzaradan came and burnt the temple, and the houses of Jerusalem, and broke down the walls of it, and cleared the land of its inhabitants and riches.

Joel 1:6 &15 –

Unawares, suddenly, and irresistibly describes the event: there is in the Hebrew text an elegant play on words, which may be rendered, as "wasting from the waster," or "destruction from the destroyer, shall it come"; even from the almighty God, who is able to save and destroy, and none can deliver out of his hands; "Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty" (Isa 13:6).--John Gill

Day of the Lord, 6,000-7,000th year, the Millennium, the Sabbath day of rest.

And they (locusts) had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. (Revelation 9:11)

Abaddon, Strong's 3; of Hebraic origin (11); a destroying angel
11 abaddown; intensively from 6; abstractly a perishing; concretely Hades:--destruction
6 abad; a primitive root; properly to wander away, i.e. lose oneself; by implication to perish (causatively destroy)

Apollyon, Strong's 623; active participle of 622; a destroyer (i.e. Satan)
622apollumi; from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully

Joel 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things. Locusts do not usually come from the north, but from the south, or from the east; the locusts from Persia, though, would come mostly from the north.

For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.Isaiah 34:2-4

Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpillar, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

**This is a passage the Lord personally spoke to my Spirit years ago concerning a personal issue in my life (issues yet to be resolved). I can assure you that speaks specifically of humanity. I have no doubt that this reference is not about insects.

This enemy of Israel bore the name Amalek to denote the rapidity with which he moved against Israel, for like a swarm of locusts he flew upon them; and the name furthermore designates the purpose of this enemy, who came to suck the blood of Israel. This Amalek was a son of Eliphaz, the first-born son of Esau...

In Amalek’s expedition against Israel he made use of his kinship with them, by pretending, at first, to be their friend and kinsman. Before going over to open attack, he lured many unsuspecting Jews to death by his kindly words. He had fetched from Egypt the table of descent of the Jews; for every Jew had there to mark his name on the bricks produced by him, and these lists lay in the Egyptian archives. Familiar with the names of the different Jewish families, Amalek appeared before the Jewish camp, and calling the people by name, he invited them to leave the camp, and come out to him. "Reuben! Simeon! Levi! etc.," he would call, "come out to me, your brother, and transact business with me."

Those who answered the enticing call, found certain death at his hands; and not only did Amalek kill them, but he also mutilated their corpses, following the example of his grandsire Esau, by cutting off a certain part of the body, and throwing it toward heaven with the mocking words, "Here shalt Thou have what Thou desirest." In this way did he jeer at the token of the Abrahamic covenant...Moses did not himself set out to battle against this dangerous foe of Israel, but he sent his servant Joshua...

Many commentaries make a parallel between the character of Joshua and that of Yeshua.

BTW, I also believe we will see the dinosaurs of ancient days … as well as all the animals that have passed too. However, I do not believe God will “recreate” anything: I think we will see everything as it was and is. MPO. I currently have a wolf as a companion, and she would lay down with the lambs if we had any; she lives with us, two cats and several chickens. We did have another dog and a rabbit too, and she was very good with them – Precious (the wolf) is as gentle as can be and I have learned many truths concerning humans from her behavioral patterns. I thank God for her blessing in my life every day.

If we are in God, and He is in us, and we take guidance from His Holy Spirit, then we are sure to be clear on what it is He intends us to know.

~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/



Uriah -> RE: creatures of revlation (11/4/2009 10:51:40 PM)

Is this really original thinking, or mostly copy and pasted material?

All this to say what? Are the Arabs going to sting people?



sureclarity -> RE: creatures of revlation (11/5/2009 2:43:09 AM)

quote:

Is this really original thinking, or mostly copy and pasted material?

All this to say what? Are the Arabs going to sting people?


And your point would be what - besides complaining???????

If more time was allowed to type all this before being logged off when time runs out, I wouldn't need to type it to document then paste it to forum ... nothing concerning Scripture has been "original thought" for thousands of years and most of prophecy exchange isn't either; should we rule it out because someone else said it? How "original" is that complaint?

I have been studying prophecy since 1978; nothing is "new" to me when it comes to the topic ... and all of it would take more time than the short span of login time allotted to put it on forum. Get real.

Do YOU have an "original thought" on the topic? If so, please feel free to post it. We are waiting with baited breath for original thinking since so much of what we know is mostly commentaries, personal notation from prophetic studies (private and public), and ancient ciphers which we are trying to understand.

However I must warn you that since Revelation says we are not to add or subtract from God's Word ... your original thought probably wouldn't carry much weight with me unless you can point your original thought out to me in Scripture references; in which case it wouldn't BE original.



Retrobyter -> RE: creatures of revlation (11/5/2009 10:47:32 AM)

Shalom, sureclarity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sureclarity

quote:

Is this really original thinking, or mostly copy and pasted material?

All this to say what? Are the Arabs going to sting people?


And your point would be what - besides complaining???????

If more time was allowed to type all this before being logged off when time runs out, I wouldn't need to type it to document then paste it to forum ... nothing concerning Scripture has been "original thought" for thousands of years and most of prophecy exchange isn't either; should we rule it out because someone else said it? How "original" is that complaint?

I have been studying prophecy since 1978; nothing is "new" to me when it comes to the topic ... and all of it would take more time than the short span of login time allotted to put it on forum. Get real.

Do YOU have an "original thought" on the topic? If so, please feel free to post it. We are waiting with baited breath for original thinking since so much of what we know is mostly commentaries, personal notation from prophetic studies (private and public), and ancient ciphers which we are trying to understand.

However I must warn you that since Revelation says we are not to add or subtract from God's Word ... your original thought probably wouldn't carry much weight with me unless you can point your original thought out to me in Scripture references; in which case it wouldn't BE original.

Good morning! I hope you're feeling well. No, there's nothing new under the sun, but on the other hand, sometimes God does step in and give us a more clear picture. I thought that what I said was at least more plausible for a literal interpretation for this shofar judgment.

I do NOT feel that this is somehow representative of the Arabs or any of the Islamic peoples. I mean, it's an interesting connection and all, but it needs some serious work before it could be an explanation of this passage.

I didn't see it mentioned in your work, but "Ba`al-z'vuwv" (Baal-zebub) means "Lord of the flies." It is found four times in 2 Kings (1:2, 3, 6, 16), and its pun "Ba`al -z'vuwl" ("Lord of the dung," Greek Beelzeboul) IS used in the New Testament in Matthew 12:24. He was the god of Ekron (`Eqrown), one of the five principle towns of Philistia (P'lishtiym). Since there is absolutely NO connection of this god to the locusts (Hebrew: arbeh), I can see why he wasn't mentioned.

"Arbeh" IS very close to "Arab" in Hebrew. In fact, "arbeh" can be thought to be the feminine form of "Arab." James Strong (or one of his colleagues) thought that "arbeh" came more from "rabah," which means "to multiply" while "Arab" means "to lie in wait; to ambush." But, if one mulls it over in one's mind a while, a connection can be seen in these definitions in the activities of the locusts. So, from a Hebrew perspective, the points you brought up are valid.

However, in the very definitions you brought up about "Abaddown" and "Apolluon," you should have noticed what I had said earlier:

You pointed out,...
Abaddon, Strong's 3; of Hebraic origin (11); a destroying angel
11 abaddown; intensively from 6; abstractly a perishing; concretely Hades:--destruction
6 abad; a primitive root; properly to wander away, i.e. lose oneself; by implication to perish (causatively destroy)

Apollyon, Strong's 623; active participle of 622; a destroyer (i.e. Satan)
622apollumi; from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully

Allow me to add,...

575 apo (apo'); a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):
3639 olethros (ol'-eth-ros); from a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment:

Thus, as I said, the word means "to destroy off." A participle in English has the past tense of the verb, often adding the "-ed" form, i.e., "destroyed," or in this case "destroyed off." It is ASSUMED that he was a "destroying angel" or the "destroyer, i.e. Satan" by the one(s) writing the definition, but by the words themselves in both the Hebrew and the Greek, both words mean "destruction" and "destroyed off," respectively. Therefore, it is still my opinion that this refers not to his ability to destroy (which he does not do for no one dies) but rather to the FATE of both this king of the locusts and the species itself!

As you quoted, the lifespan of the locust is 5 months, but THESE locusts, as we have both noted, have a KING while the various smaller species with which we are familiar have no such king. If this king is important to the life cycle of this particular species, then when the king dies, so will the rest of the species. That death, that fate, that "destruction" ("Abaddown"), that fate of being "destroyed off" ("Apolluon"), will end this particular judgment.

In the Messiah's love,
Roy



jjbird -> RE: creatures of revlation (11/5/2009 11:00:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knight_Of_God

the creatures in revlation
Locusts- lion heads scorpion tails and crowns with wings
six headed dragon

do you think these will be the actual things we see in revlation or are they just like something we gta look more into



It is apocalyptic language not meant to be taken literally. It is imagery conveying a spiritual truth. Not a literal creature. They are symbols that represent spiritual truths.



Retrobyter -> RE: creatures of revlation (11/5/2009 4:29:22 PM)

Shalom, jjbird.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jjbird

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knight_Of_God

the creatures in revlation
Locusts- lion heads scorpion tails and crowns with wings
six headed dragon

do you think these will be the actual things we see in revlation or are they just like something we gta look more into



It is apocalyptic language not meant to be taken literally. It is imagery conveying a spiritual truth. Not a literal creature. They are symbols that represent spiritual truths.


Well, that's one theory. But, think for a moment: Is there anything in the passage that DEMANDS that this passage be taken symbolically? I mean, besides the aversion one may have to this interpretation? If so, what is it? If not, then why not take it at face value and just accept it? I see no reason why these locusts could not be literal creatures ... except, of course, for one's prejudicial bent.

In the Messiah's love,
Roy

P.S. - Again, they do NOT have "lion heads, scorpion tails, and crowns with wings." Where do people come up with these exaggerations?! No, they are said...
a.) to be locusts,
b.) to have influence as scorpions of the ground have influence,
c.) to torment men for five months with the poison of scorpions,
d.) to have formidable arrays like horses decked out for battle,
e.) to have gold-like "stefanos" (not "crowns" but "victor's wreaths") on their heads (their antennae),
f.) to have faces LIKE the faces of human beings (the folds and creases of the clypeus and labrum) on the front of the locust's head,
g.) to have hairs (as fine and long) as women's hair,
h.) to have mandibles like the teeth of lions,
i.) to have "breastplates" (Greek: thoraxes) AS IT WERE breastplates of iron (very hard, impenetrable chitin),
j.) to have wings that sounded like "the sound of chariots pulled by many horses running to battle" (a low-pitched, powerful thrum), and...
k.) to have tails like those of scorpions (a segmented and curved abdomen), complete with stingers.

That's NOT impossible to picture in a REAL locust! So, why make up something the passage doesn't support just to get away from a description some might find "unpalatable?" Nope. I'm going to stick to an objective, literal explanation for this passage, because the sky's the limit when one introduces the subjective thoughts of what the verses MIGHT otherwise represent, and who's to say what the passage means for sure? Too "iffy" for my blood.

Roy



jjbird -> RE: creatures of revlation (11/5/2009 5:22:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Shalom, jjbird.

But, think for a moment: Is there anything in the passage that DEMANDS that this passage be taken symbolically?
Roy



I am sorry Roy but you are asking the wrong question.

With apocalyptic literature the interpretive rules are the other way around.

You take the passages symbolically unless forced to take them literally.

That's hermeneutics 101 my friend. [:)]



Retrobyter -> RE: creatures of revlation (11/5/2009 5:56:30 PM)

Shalom, jjbird.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jjbird

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Shalom, jjbird.

But, think for a moment: Is there anything in the passage that DEMANDS that this passage be taken symbolically?
Roy



I am sorry Roy but you are asking the wrong question.

With apocalyptic literature the interpretive rules are the other way around.

You take the passages symbolically unless forced to take them literally.

That's hermeneutics 101 my friend. [:)]


Then hermeneutics 101 needs to be corrected, my friend. The same thing still stands: How does one determine what was meant to be understood by the passage? Furthermore, whose idea is correct, since one idea is as good as another?

No, that approach to the interpretation of Scripture is SEVERELY flawed! ... AND DANGEROUS! I'll stick to the historical, grammatical interpretation of Scripture which some erroneously call the "literal" interpretation. Simply put, John (or rather, Jesus, since He was telling John what to write) had A thought to communicate in the context of a passage, and it was not open to multiple interpretations!

It's not the wrong question if you have the world rightside up! Symbols are fine in the historical, grammatical interpretation of Scripture IF it is clear from Scripture that it is to be interpreted symbolically, and only THEN when the symbols are clearly defined! IF these were symbols, they should be CLEARLY defined and they are NOT, IF they were indeed symbols.

I question where you have taken your "hermeneutics 101" course! The Vatican?

In the Messiah's love for a better approach,
Roy



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