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RE: Struggling - 11/4/2009 9:23:06 PM
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truthrevealed
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Great post Solo! Although, some are sure to think that you're being lax as a christian to hang around with "sinners" 
Lea, if you find yourself constantly being criticized about being judgemental especailly if you don't offer advice or admonition than it's either conviction on the part of the person or the fact that what goes on in us (our attitudes, opinions, thoughts, perspectives towards others) comes out whether we intend it to or not, and many times the evidence of those things is people telling us...and showing us!
ETA: By the by Lea, I'm in no way intending to offend. It's just a different way to see things. It may or may not apply to you but I'd search my heart and pray about it.
< Message edited by truthrevealed -- 11/4/2009 9:36:53 PM >
_____________________________
I'll tell the world....where--ever I go. That I, have found, a Savior....and He's sweet I know!!!
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RE: Struggling - 11/5/2009 12:52:53 AM
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Lea_3
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(Sigh). It seems with Christians I'm always going to run into problems. I don't like it, but I have found that I get along better with non-believing theists-- such as Hindus and Muslims-- mostly from a cultural aspect that is intertwined with their beliefs. I never have problems with non-believing theists when it comes to moral issues (though we all seem to steer clear of faith-related discussions).
What am I supposed to do? I've just about given up thinking that I'll ever meet Christian friends who are sincere about their walk and faith-life and are interested in being supportive to one another in their faith. I'm not looking for people to admonish or have them chastise me, although it may seem so. I'm looking for people who are genuinely concerned about being Christians. It's honestly only around non-believers that I don't feel like a freak. I know many Hindu and Muslim women are brought up with conservative beliefs regarding personal morality so it's easier for me to relate to them on that level. There is hardly ever judgment or criticism interestingly enough-- mostly because we were raised similarly so we have similar expectations of each other. It's true that no one is perfect or sinless, as I will hear through the grapevine about how one person did this and that, but it rarely causes me to bat an eye in shock.
I know that isn't good for my personal faith, but it's a way for me to know that I'm not completely a freak.
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RE: Struggling - 11/5/2009 1:21:28 AM
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OneOfHisJewels
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quote:
I hate being the freak. How many single 25 year old people are there out there who are virgins? NONE. I feel like I am the only one. I don't know or have a single Christian friend who I could rely on for needing strength with my convictions. Everyone I know has fallen to temptation for something, a long, long time ago.
I'm a 37 yo one, and my gentleman friend whom I'm in a relationship with (not a physical one) is 44 yo virgin (at least it seems, I haven't had *that* talk yet, but the evidence suggests as much). I have not been drunk (the closest was having 2 drinks instead of one and losing my tact, so I stop at one now) or used drugs ever either.
As for as the ECLA, I agree with Thursday's child, and suggest you switch to a more conservative branch. My possibility (as I call the gentleman referred to above) is Missouri Synod Lutheran, and they are breaking ties with the ECLA right now.
I understand about being persecuted for what you are. At a former job, I got teased for being a virgin AND told I was the last of dying breed. And the worst part is I NEVER EVEN MENTIONED THE FACT, but they figured it out...I guess because I didn't stand around discussing a sex life as they did.........but that was a minimum wage job, and even the ones that kept their babies brought them into the world with meager means of supporting them. My possibility now has a lucrative career, and if I marry him, we will be well able to support our children and provide them with many opportunities those other kids didn't have, plus the love of Jesus which is even more important.
I also understand abstinence isn't always easy. But if you are struggling, and ever just want to vent/chat, you can email me (pm me for the address if you are interested). I had asked Fritz a while ago if we could have a Single Women support thread in WO and he said yes. I just hadn't got around to starting the thread..threads like these make me feel I should do it soon (but whoever reads this, please let me start the thread because it was my idea).
Also, part of the christian walk is that we do suffer, and sometimes we suffer for righteousnes' sake.
Something that also helps me is to remember that even if there are *certain* sins I haven't done, before I God I am just as much a sinner deserving hell as anyone else.
------------------------------
P.S. This post is in no way meant to cast judgement anyone that wasn't abstinent before marriage....it's simply meant to encourage lea so please see it for what it is and not as a judgemnt on anyone else.
< Message edited by OneOfHisJewels -- 11/5/2009 1:31:05 AM >
_____________________________
Wizard's rule #1 .People can be stupid and willfully deceived (that's from the book, not the show)..slightly edited for CW
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RE: Struggling - 11/5/2009 1:56:16 AM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2078
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Perhaps you just shouldn't worry about it and pray for them. I think we have all seen Christians, either personally or through testimonies, who have gotten saved and taken a wrong path...paths that have taken them a decade, or decades, to come off of. But they are still God's children, even if they make more of a mess sometimes than you or I.
If their sins are too great for you, then it might be best to take it to God in prayer. For example, I have gay friends who are Christians (so they say). They know what they should and shouldn't do-- they were raised in the same very conservative school and church as I was; I don't have to take a Bible bat to their heads even once-- they can probably quote the Scriptures on that better than I can. They know when they sin; no one has to tell them that. But for some people, they just can't deal with having gay friends because that sin is too much for them to handle in a friend. It's too high up on the "sin ladder." If so, then I suggest praying for them. There is only so much one can do, and no one can force someone to straighten up behavior both mentally and outwardly. If living together is the straw that breaks the camel's back, or premarital sex, etc. then it just is what it is. But people can also do that stuff and not tell their business, so we'd never know.
(I really don't have a sin ladder-- although I believe in consequences that fit the "offense"; some believe some sins are greater than others [and that's fine]. Either way, the minute ones and big ones alike would send us all to Hell if it weren't for a Jesus' blood.)
I don't see a problem with being friends with non-Christians with similar values...although some would consider the sin of unbelief to be the greatest sin, being someone's friend doesn't mean necessarily agreeing with all their choices and mistakes... and whatever else they do.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Struggling - 11/8/2009 1:31:47 AM
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Lea_3
Posts: 295
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
I understand about being persecuted for what you are. At a former job, I got teased for being a virgin AND told I was the last of dying breed. And the worst part is I NEVER EVEN MENTIONED THE FACT, but they figured it out...
Wow, I've actually had that same thing happen to me a few times too! In my case, instead of being told that I was part of a dying breed, I just got laughed at-- and I was 18. IMO, you should still be a virgin at that age, for goodness sakes...I just got out of high school.
I guess I am just really disillusioned right now. I lost my church community; I have no Christian friends, as in GOOD friends; the Christians I know don't take me seriously; I really don't have a strong support structure. I feel very alone.
I can remember when I was with my ex-boyfriend, who was also Christian, and how he happened to be my support structure. I can recall a time at work where a girl there, who claimed to be Christian, laughed at me and told me that I was "weird" for not living with him before marriage. Apparently, that's what "everyone does". What was good about that time is that he and I both firmly believed that sex and living together were to be reserved for marriage. We aren't together anymore and while I don't desire to be in a romantic relationship, I do wish I could find that support system again.
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano23
I don't see a problem with being friends with non-Christians with similar values...although some would consider the sin of unbelief to be the greatest sin, being someone's friend doesn't mean necessarily agreeing with all their choices and mistakes... and whatever else they do.
These girls aren't what I would call "friends", but they are good acquaintances that I happen to hang out with at school from time to time. We've also gotten together in larger groups. From my knowledge and exposure of being around them, they haven't done anything that I would find objectionable.
I realize that some people would consider their unbelief to be very repugnant...but in all honesty, when someone professes to be a Christian yet does not show that through their actions, it is meaningless to me. I have an old friend who calls herself a Christian, yet brags openly about her sex life with her live-in boyfriend. She also abhors going to church and refuses to read the Bible. How is that behavior Christian? And then I am the one who is seen as uptight, fundamentalist, extremist, and judgmental. I will admit the fact that for the last one in regards to her, I was a bit judgmental...but mostly because I could have cared less about hearing about her sex life.
She lives out of state and I only see her a few times a year. Each time, she has to talk about her lifestyle with her boyfriend when I wish we could talk about other things. Finally, I got slightly irritated and told her that we needed to talk about something else and she accused me of being judgmental. I told her truthfully, I don't get to see her that often and I don't want to hear about her sex life when we do hang out, and as a Christian, I didn't think it was an appropriate conversation. Maybe I overstepped my boundaries, but it was really starting to bother me. I had to say something.
I get that people aren't perfect. I understand that, and I'm far from perfect. But I wish I could see more people who are truly repentant. I know one of my biggest sins is that I held a lot of anger towards my family of origin because I was abused, and from time to time I feel resentment and bitterness come up, and I realize that I need to do something about it and make sure it doesn't interfere with my walk. I understand that there are people out there who have lived sordid lifestyles and are now saying "no, it's not worth it, it's wrong, repent and live a Christly life." But there don't seem to be enough of those people.
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RE: Struggling - 11/8/2009 8:08:57 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4923
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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Have you tried looking for another church yet?
_____________________________
"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Struggling - 11/9/2009 12:59:40 PM
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Lea_3
Posts: 295
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No, I haven't. It's not easy for me to find a church where I feel like I'm part of a spiritual family and also part of a community.
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RE: Struggling - 11/9/2009 2:23:39 PM
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Consecrated2God
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Well, it sounds like you really need to start looking. This church is sucking the joy out of your life, and if I were you I'd be putting a high priority on finding a group of Christians that you can find true fellowship with. I think it's very important to your spiritual health that you do that as soon as possible. If you remain in a toxic environment by your own free will, and it eventually kills you, you really don't have anyone to blame but yourself.
_____________________________
"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Struggling - 11/9/2009 3:05:05 PM
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Lea_3
Posts: 295
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Well, it sounds like you really need to start looking. This church is sucking the joy out of your life, and if I were you I'd be putting a high priority on finding a group of Christians that you can find true fellowship with. I think it's very important to your spiritual health that you do that as soon as possible. If you remain in a toxic environment by your own free will, and it eventually kills you, you really don't have anyone to blame but yourself.
...I haven't been to an ELCA church since August-- right after the General Assembly vote. Why would I want to keep attending that church? Finding a church for me is not easy-- it took a year of looking before I was able to find my former church, and I don't expect it to be any easier.
I am actually abhorred by going to church. I can check everyone's websites about their beliefs and missions statements, but the truth is the people attending the churches are a different thing. My desire to go to a church and find a church really aren't there, but my commitment to Jesus hasn't diminished. I'm just tired of people, quite frankly.
< Message edited by Lea_3 -- 11/9/2009 3:16:03 PM >
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RE: Struggling - 11/9/2009 3:25:21 PM
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manda59
Posts: 8176
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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Lea,
I appreciate that it's lonely for you right now, but I'm struggling to understand why you appear so bitter about things. So you haven't been able to find anyone as committed as you for a while - yep, that's disappointing, but that's just how it is at the moment, and it's up to you whether you choose to wallow around and isolate yourself, or whether you choose to look for what God is seeking to teach you during this time.
And after all, you're not alone - Christ Himself knows EXACTLY what you are going through. Who was His support system? Even those He counted His friends couldn't be bothered to stay awake with Him during the most difficult night of His earthly life. He knew that one close to Him would betray Him before the cock crowed. How lonely He must have been, how desolate, how sad.
And yet He did not give up on them, did not give up on the Church.
My children are 20 and 16; they walk a lonesome path at church because they are often isolated and ignored, deliberately excluded even, regarded as "goody two shoes" because of their commitment to Christ. Yet, as painful as it is for them, they have not given up on finding committed Christian friends, and neither should you. And in the meantime, while they are waiting, they are making sure and cultivating a closer walk with God, and letting Him meet their emotional needs, so that they are not looking to others to do so.
Are you absolutely sure there isn't something else going on here for you?
How about just church-hopping for now, just visiting a few other local places, without putting down any roots, just to give yourself a break, without stopping going to church entirely?
< Message edited by manda59 -- 11/9/2009 3:31:39 PM >
_____________________________
"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: Struggling - 11/9/2009 3:37:38 PM
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Lea_3
Posts: 295
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The few places that I am interested in becoming part of their church, won't accept me. Let me explain.
One is an ethnic-based church community. Almost everyone is Indian and they're Christian and I've met a few people who attend that church because they also happen to go to the same university. However, because I don't speak the language and have no been invited to attend church (noone would give me the address or website), I can't go. Which is a huge blow because for once, I felt like I could be part of a community where almost everyone shared my values and upbringing and faith.
Other churches I have just felt odd and like an outsider. At one church, a woman there tried to get me to tell her my life story, and it was simply too much. I just wanted to attend service but in a way, I felt cornered. Mostly because she immediately had me meet the pastor, who then began to question me. It really was just too overwhelming!
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RE: Struggling - 11/9/2009 3:54:49 PM
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manda59
Posts: 8176
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lea_3
One is an ethnic-based church community. Almost everyone is Indian and they're Christian and I've met a few people who attend that church because they also happen to go to the same university. However, because I don't speak the language and have no been invited to attend church (noone would give me the address or website), I can't go. Which is a huge blow because for once, I felt like I could be part of a community where almost everyone shared my values and upbringing and faith.
Are you Indian?
quote:
Other churches I have just felt odd and like an outsider. At one church, a woman there tried to get me to tell her my life story, and it was simply too much. I just wanted to attend service but in a way, I felt cornered. Mostly because she immediately had me meet the pastor, who then began to question me. It really was just too overwhelming!
So, keep trying. 
Tried any non-denominational churches?
quote:
Other churches I have just felt odd and like an outsider.
Are you absolutely sure that all that feeling comes from the church, and not from inside you?
< Message edited by manda59 -- 11/9/2009 4:02:03 PM >
_____________________________
"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: Struggling - 11/9/2009 4:10:31 PM
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Lea_3
Posts: 295
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I am Indian. I'm also pretty sure that it's not me that just "feels" like an outsider. I look at the church bulletins for whenever they have gatherings for anyone to attend and I make an effort to get myself acquainted.
I can read body language though. When people turn their backs on you, how else should one interpret that? Or when people have their own pre-conceived and very baseless opinions-- I've had a few people ask me if I knew English and if I was Muslim. Now, why would a non-English speaking Muslim visit a Christian church? 
I'm sure these feelings also come from within me. Do you know how it feels to be the only non-white person in a church and have people giving you "looks" though? That's pretty much what happens when I visit alot of churches. One of the fringe benefits of my former church was that it was very diverse and hardly anyone batted an eye.
It doesn't help to rid the outsider feeling when people treat you like an outsider.
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RE: Struggling - 11/9/2009 4:23:56 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4923
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From: Formerly Jesus Land
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So are you not attending church at all presently? I just want to make sure I'm understanding where you are. Manda suggested church-hopping for awhile. Although it's not a long-term solution, there's nothing wrong with that. If you don't want to deal with people yet, slip in after the service starts and leave as soon as its over. That will give you a taste of things without having to feel like you are being interviewed by people who are hoping you will stay. But overall, you need to take responsibility for finding a place where you can find Christian fellowship and do what it takes to get there. There really are good Christians out there. I'm reminded of Elijah who told God that he was the only true believer left, and God had to remind him that He had reserved a remnant for Himself that had not bowed their knees to Baal. Be willing to overlook imperfections and find that group of people that love God with all of their hearts, but you absolutely need a group of believers to assemble with, and I know there are some close to you.
_____________________________
"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Struggling - 11/9/2009 4:45:26 PM
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manda59
Posts: 8176
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lea_3
I am Indian. I'm also pretty sure that it's not me that just "feels" like an outsider. I look at the church bulletins for whenever they have gatherings for anyone to attend and I make an effort to get myself acquainted.
I can read body language though. When people turn their backs on you, how else should one interpret that? Or when people have their own pre-conceived and very baseless opinions-- I've had a few people ask me if I knew English and if I was Muslim. Now, why would a non-English speaking Muslim visit a Christian church?
I'm sure these feelings also come from within me. Do you know how it feels to be the only non-white person in a church and have people giving you "looks" though?
I know what it's like to be the only white person in a church - I've deliberately put myself (and my family) in that situation in order to have a slightly better understanding of what it's like.
JFYI I am in the UK, and we have quite a large number of people here of Indian and Pakistani descent, so maybe it's a bit different to where you are. Are you in an area where there aren't many non-white people?
quote:
It doesn't help to rid the outsider feeling when people treat you like an outsider.
True, but again, remember that Jesus knows first hand what it's like to be an outsider. He knows, He understands and He cares, and He will get you through this.
He is also *allowing* you to be in this situation, and can bless you through it, if you let Him.
Did I read correctly, that you are at University? Which local churches do the other students go to, especially any International Students?
_____________________________
"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: Struggling - 11/9/2009 6:41:08 PM
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Lea_3
Posts: 295
Joined: 3/7/2006
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I'm not an international student, but I do know of some churches at my university. Unfortunately I have had bad experiences with most of them. I'd rather not go into detail regarding all of them, but based on the things I was told and the way certain people were treated, I decided that none of those churches I acquainted myself with should be places to belong.
I live in the Midwest, where there isn't an extremely small population of non-whites, but it's not huge either. It's not that I dislike being around whites, my ex-bf was white  , it's how I am regarded in those situations. I often feel as if I am supposed to be some "representative" of Indian people or something, a role I don't think should be shouldered upon me. People ask me for curry recipes, why I don't wear a sari (my all-time favorite, considering that I am 100% American and like my blue jeans), and why I don't wear "the dot" on my forehead. Most of the time the questions are funny, but other times I think to myself "really? Is this how you're starting our first conversation??"
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RE: Struggling - 11/9/2009 6:57:12 PM
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manda59
Posts: 8176
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lea_3
I often feel as if I am supposed to be some "representative" of Indian people or something, a role I don't think should be shouldered upon me. People ask me for curry recipes, why I don't wear a sari (my all-time favorite, considering that I am 100% American and like my blue jeans), and why I don't wear "the dot" on my forehead. Most of the time the questions are funny, but other times I think to myself "really? Is this how you're starting our first conversation??"
So you've come across some ignorance and stereotypical attitudes - it's a shame, but that's life. Maybe the Lord has allowed you to be in this situation so that you can educate people and start to see things change.
But that's not going to happen if you isolate yourself and stand alone outside the church. You can't be the only person who has experienced this kind of thing, and you sadly won't be the last. Maybe God is raising you up to make a stand, and herald in a change of attitude.
quote:
One is an ethnic-based church community. Almost everyone is Indian and they're Christian and I've met a few people who attend that church because they also happen to go to the same university. However, because I don't speak the language and have no been invited to attend church (noone would give me the address or website), I can't go.
You said that no-one would give you the address or website - why was that? And if the language is an issue, what's to stop you learning it?
_____________________________
"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: Struggling - 11/12/2009 12:27:53 AM
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Lea_3
Posts: 295
Joined: 3/7/2006
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It's called being cliquey. Since I'm not an Indian national, noone really seems to want anything to do with me. I'm Indian...but I'm not.
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