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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 11/19/2009 8:17:56 PM
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SoulCrushed
Posts: 137
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quote:
If we make excuses for our sin, blaming our nature, we justify our selves and God will not justify you.
If we acknowledge our sin nature and the wrath that it brings, then we accept that we are utterly incapable of saving ourselves and we turn from pride.
If we believe that the power to save ourselves lies in our own choice, then we will always choose death.
If we simply use our nature as an excuse to continue in sin then we don't really believe that the curse we are under is really a curse, that God is capable for punishing us for remaining under it and that Jesus is able to save us.
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 11/20/2009 2:02:23 AM
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SoulCrushed
Posts: 137
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quote:
With Jesus being something less than fully human, he was unable to sin had he chosen to do so, and by many understandings, he was not even truly able to be tempted, though scripture says that he was.
James says that each one is tempted by his own evil desires. Are you really saying that Jesus was tempted in the same way that we are?
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 11/20/2009 2:57:10 AM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2718
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Guys, you are trying to create a doctrine out of seemingly rational arguments. But the Bible says that there was a time "before" he knew to choose the good and reject the evil.
So discuss and argue all you like, but in the end there can be no correct conclusion other than what it says in the scriptures. There is a time when children don't know the difference between good and evil, and how to choose between them. That, according to plain scripture, included Jesus as well.
I am just curious if you are positive that really was a reference to Yeshua, and not the actual son that was born in Isaiah's time whose name was actually "Immanuel." (If I remember right . .. that wasn't Yeshua's name).
If so, could you explain the rest of Isaiah chapter 7 to me. . . for instance:
16 But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.
The King of Assyria was brought unto Israel some time during Yeshua's childhood?
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rawr.ben
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 11/20/2009 3:00:12 AM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2718
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Guys, you are trying to create a doctrine out of seemingly rational arguments. But the Bible says that there was a time "before" he knew to choose the good and reject the evil.
So discuss and argue all you like, but in the end there can be no correct conclusion other than what it says in the scriptures. There is a time when children don't know the difference between good and evil, and how to choose between them. That, according to plain scripture, included Jesus as well.
I am just curious if you are positive that really was a reference to Yeshua, and not the actual son that was born in Isaiah's time whose name was actually "Immanuel." (If I remember right . .. that wasn't Yeshua's name).
If so, could you explain the rest of Isaiah chapter 7 to me. . . for instance:
16 But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.
The King of Assyria was brought unto Israel some time during Yeshua's childhood?
_____________________________
rawr.ben
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 11/20/2009 6:28:08 AM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 255
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SoulCrushed
quote:
With Jesus being something less than fully human, he was unable to sin had he chosen to do so, and by many understandings, he was not even truly able to be tempted, though scripture says that he was.
James says that each one is tempted by his own evil desires. Are you really saying that Jesus was tempted in the same way that we are?
Negative. The Bible, not me, says that he was tempted in the same way we are. It's in Hebrews. Draw whatever conclusions you like from James in conjunction with that fact.
< Message edited by Theo-Minor -- 11/20/2009 6:39:01 AM >
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 11/20/2009 6:31:16 AM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 255
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Guys, you are trying to create a doctrine out of seemingly rational arguments. But the Bible says that there was a time "before" he knew to choose the good and reject the evil.
So discuss and argue all you like, but in the end there can be no correct conclusion other than what it says in the scriptures. There is a time when children don't know the difference between good and evil, and how to choose between them. That, according to plain scripture, included Jesus as well.
I am just curious if you are positive that really was a reference to Yeshua, and not the actual son that was born in Isaiah's time whose name was actually "Immanuel." (If I remember right . .. that wasn't Yeshua's name).
If so, could you explain the rest of Isaiah chapter 7 to me. . . for instance:
16 But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.
The King of Assyria was brought unto Israel some time during Yeshua's childhood?
Well, the apostles quote that passage as being a prophecy of Jesus' birth and coming. I have no reason to believe that it refers to any other child, unless you think the Messiah came twice.
Perhaps it means what it says, is prophecy just like the apostles said it is, and the two kings refer to someone else, like perhaps Herod and Augustus (just as an example, not a conclusion).
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 11/20/2009 12:03:27 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 940
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmarkquote:
First of all, if one believes in "original sin" they will resent God when they come to their senses and see the logical conclusion of it. Nonsense! I believe in "Original Sin" and it thrills my soul beyond expression that God would send His One and Only Son to die specifically for my sinful nature! Praise His Holy Name! I would never "resent" God's grace, Diolectic, so you are flat out wrong. Does it "thrill your soul beyond expression" that God is ultimately responsible & the cause of our sin?
They say that Adam sinned and he is the reason for our nature to be sinful. However, you can’t end with Adam as the ultimate cause of our sinfulness.
God is the one who created mankind's nature. Furthermore, He would be the one to inaugurate the concept of Adam's sin to corrupt his nature and that Adam’s depraved nature to be passed down to all mankind.
Ultimately, God is the one who gives man a nature which He hates & which causes man to do that which he hates. Sin becomes an innate character of mankind; God must be the one to ultimately put that in mankind.
God has become the creator & propagator of that which He hates.
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Second of all, you don't really condemn yourself before God, in fact, you making an excuse for your sin before God. More nonsense! (Now I remember why I rarely agree with you...) God has condemned me for my sins already and I was fully responsible and accountable for them before I confessed, repented, and accepted His free gift of forgiveness. Our sin natures have nothing to offer in the way of excuses, so you are wrong again. How does God justly condemn you for your sins if we are "born sinful". It says that we are "born sinners" & that we sin BECAUSE we are sinners.
The logical conclusion of this is that our birth is what causes us to sin; we are condemned for just being born; we are guilty for that which we did not do, but just because we are born. We’re by nature. This is injustice!!
If you believe in this so called "sin nature", you are blaming something other than your own personal volition to choose right or wrong.
The doctrine of Sin nature says that it causes, compels, and makes one to sin.
It is impossible NOT to sin, it is impossible to avoid, sin is inevitable...etc...
Why do we sin?
We sin because we can't help ourselves.
The amazing thing is that God condemns us for this.
How could God justly condemn mankind for sin according to with the doctrine of “original sin/sin nature”?
In reality, we call people who do condemn for not complying with impossible demands as sadistic tyrants.
How do you not see God as such with the doctrine of “original sin/sin nature”?
quote:
If you believe in this so called "sin nature", you are blaming something other than your own personal volition to choose right or wrong.
Sin nature causes, compels, makes one to sin.
It is impossible NOT to sin, it is impossible to avoid, Sin is inevitable...etc... Strike three, you're out, Diolectic! Obviously you have some warped Pelagian concept of original sin and not the orthodox Christian perspective.
Original sin is humanity's state of sin resulting from the Fall of Adam.
Sin is not a "state", but a dominion which one chooses to be under by choosing to continue in sin; Do you not Know that to whom you [choose to] yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey? Whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (Rom 6:16)
quote:
Indeed, you sound like you're imitating Flip Wilson: "The devil made me do it!" No, "my nature made me do it.
I sin because I'm a sinner, and I was born a sinner, right?
My birth caused me to sin.
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No real Christian in her/his right mind would ever deny the possibility of sinning I'm not denying the possibility of sinning, but saying that it is possible not to sin.
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so your ignorance of mainstream orthodoxy in this area is appalling! All I'm doing is taking the doctrine of original sin/sin nature” to it's logical conclusion, which is God being ultimately responsible & the cause of our sin.
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My sin nature has been eradicated (by God's grace and power) So what, according to the doctrine of original sin/sin nature”, God is ultimately the one who gives man this so called "sin nature"; therefore, He just eradicated what he first gave you.
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yet I can freely choose to sin If you, truly, freely choose to sin, then you could have always freely choose not to.
This must also include before you were saved; if not, then the inability would free you from the culpability.
However, I have never heard anyone who holds to the doctrine of original sin/sin nature” to claim this to be true.
< Message edited by Diolectic -- 11/20/2009 12:21:37 PM >
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 11/20/2009 12:04:24 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2718
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Well, the apostles quote that passage as being a prophecy of Jesus' birth and coming. I have no reason to believe that it refers to any other child, unless you think the Messiah came twice.
Perhaps it means what it says, is prophecy just like the apostles said it is, and the two kings refer to someone else, like perhaps Herod and Augustus (just as an example, not a conclusion).
No, the Messiah did not come twice. However, it is a dual prophecy. There actually WAS a child named Immanuel to be born in the time of Isaiah, that was a prophetic sign to king Ahaz. I mean, at the time, it was probably not even conceivable that it was meant to also point to Messiah, though it clearly became understood as that eventually (which, my guess would be, at the time the angel quoted it!).
Some even say that Immanuel may have been Isaiah's first son. While possible, I don't think it is necessarily true. Isaiah later had other children that were meant as a prophetic sign to Israel.
_____________________________
rawr.ben
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 11/20/2009 3:53:00 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 255
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Well, the apostles quote that passage as being a prophecy of Jesus' birth and coming. I have no reason to believe that it refers to any other child, unless you think the Messiah came twice.
Perhaps it means what it says, is prophecy just like the apostles said it is, and the two kings refer to someone else, like perhaps Herod and Augustus (just as an example, not a conclusion).
No, the Messiah did not come twice. However, it is a dual prophecy. There actually WAS a child named Immanuel to be born in the time of Isaiah, that was a prophetic sign to king Ahaz. I mean, at the time, it was probably not even conceivable that it was meant to also point to Messiah, though it clearly became understood as that eventually (which, my guess would be, at the time the angel quoted it!).
Some even say that Immanuel may have been Isaiah's first son. While possible, I don't think it is necessarily true. Isaiah later had other children that were meant as a prophetic sign to Israel.
Please provide a reference for what you are saying.
I know of no evidence to substantiate that it was a "dual prophecy." I know of no evidence to substantiate that there was a child that was to be named Immanuel in the time of Isaiah. In fact, the scripture says that you will call his name Immanuel, being translated, "God is with us." Please define who "some" are in respect to "Some even say that Immanuel may have been Isaiah's first son." Lastly, please substantiate what children of Isaiah were meant as prophetic signs to Israel.
< Message edited by Theo-Minor -- 11/20/2009 4:02:49 PM >
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 11/20/2009 5:35:32 PM
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SoulCrushed
Posts: 137
Joined: 10/18/2009
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quote:
Negative. The Bible, not me, says that he was tempted in the same way we are. It's in Hebrews. Draw whatever conclusions you like from James in conjunction with that fact.
So you have a gnostic view of the moral perfection of Jesus?
_____________________________
http://www.atone.me
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 11/20/2009 5:39:04 PM
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SoulCrushed
Posts: 137
Joined: 10/18/2009
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quote:
All I'm doing is taking the doctrine of original sin/sin nature” to it's logical conclusion, which is God being ultimately responsible & the cause of our sin.
Messianic prophesy becomes impossible to accept if God the Father did not both foresee and plan the death of his Son.
_____________________________
http://www.atone.me
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 11/20/2009 11:43:36 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 255
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SoulCrushed
quote:
Negative. The Bible, not me, says that he was tempted in the same way we are. It's in Hebrews. Draw whatever conclusions you like from James in conjunction with that fact.
So you have a gnostic view of the moral perfection of Jesus?
Not at all. I have a Hebrews 2:17-18, 4:15 view of the moral perfection of Jesus. I could swear I already told you that. I guess you only saw what you wanted to see in my response.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 11/20/2009 11:44:47 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 255
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SoulCrushed
quote:
All I'm doing is taking the doctrine of original sin/sin nature” to it's logical conclusion, which is God being ultimately responsible & the cause of our sin.
Messianic prophesy becomes impossible to accept if God the Father did not both foresee and plan the death of his Son.
And the death of his son becomes impossible to accept without sin in the world.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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