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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 3:25:27 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Is baptism not part of God's will? Did Jesus not command it? Another thread, jj! Are you going to answer my first three questions in post #46 or not? They are on topic, not salvation by baptism.
Oh yeah sure!
Believe-John 3:16
Repent-Mark 1:15
Baptism-Acts 2:38
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 3:32:49 PM
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drmark
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Well, I'm sorry that you've chosen to end our dialogue, jj. I assume you realize that "full obedience" is impossible for a sinner and that misuse of Scripture to justify faulty doctrine is your only resort left. Perhaps we can talk about saving grace some other time. God bless and have a nice day!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 4:39:57 PM
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frankman
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I`m slow, but I`m back. I usually use the preposition phrase- by grace, through faith, in Christ- and I usually add the word "alone" at the end. However to make it more complete I also like the nutshell word phrase- "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, while we are still sinners." Here is why I believe it is also Biblical.
Grace alone= If it where not for God`s grace where would any of us be? Because of our sins, we deserved eternal death. Yet because of God`s grace we received a gift we didn`t deserve. That gift was our salvation given to us not because we did something good to appeace God, but because of God`s AMAZING GRACE. Frankman, the Apostle Paul and John Newton can say AMEN to this one.
Faith alone= Easy one. We all agree we can`t earn our salvation because it is a free gift as Eph.2:8+9 states. So all we can do is believe. The question now is in what? Ask a Muslim and they will answer Muhammad. However we know the right answer.
Christ alone= Eph.1:7 states "In Him we have redempion through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God`s grace." Faith in your good deeds, your Church, your track record etc. will not save you. Only the blood that Jesus shed for you on the cross can save you and forgive your sins.
while we are still sinners.= Rom.5:8 states "But God demonstrated His own love for us in this; While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Now we all agree we can not be saved until our sins are forgiven. We can debate intellectual faith verses saving faith or is baptism necessary for salvation forever, however the bottom line is nobody is going to go to heaven unless their sins are forgiven. Now for this to happen we have to believe first of all that we are sinners. That takes faith. Then I have to believe I can`t forgive myself for breaking God`s commandments. That takes humility. Only God can forgive my sins. That rules out any of my good works. We now trust only in "Christ`s works for us alone" on the cross for me in order to be saved. Our confession of the fact that we`re sinners and only in Christ can we obtain salvation becomes the only way for us to be saved. So because of God`s grace alone we trust by faith alone in the Jesus way alone, while still sinners in order to receive eternal life. The Bible teaches us no other way.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 6:28:36 PM
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Intrepidus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
3. Fiducia - Trust in the object of faith, namely Jesus Christ. How can there be "trust in Christ" without obedience to His Will - Matthew 7:21?
I would ask the same question, only in the other direction. How can there be obedience without faith? Faith precedes obedience. Those who have true faith will invariably demonstrate that faith by doing good works. This is James' entire argument in chapter two of his epistle. It's not that faith alone doesn't justify (though if one mixes terms in verse 24, it is easy to present a false case). Rather, that true faith will always show itself through action. God saves us by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone--apart form any works that we do. We are saved, however, in order to do good works.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Eph 2:8-10)
"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws." (Eze 36:25-27)
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (Titus 2:11-14)
Nevertheless, it must be affirmed that faith does NOT equal obedience. The two are completely separate, discrete, differentiated. Faith is one thing; obedience is another. When Paul says that we are saved through faith, he is not saying we are saved through obedience. That's the heresy of legalism. He quickly adds "not by works!" because he knows the sinful tendency to pervert the gospel of Christ into a system of works-based righteousness (exhibit A: The Galatian Epistle). Evil men exchange the gospel of Christ for "another gospel," which is really no gospel at all (Gal 1:8).
Years ago, I came across the following formulas in a book. (I'm not sure which one, but I want to say it was Faith/Works, by John MacArthur). They clearly and succinctly show the difference between the gospel of Jesus Christ and the "other gospel" mentioned in Galatians 1.
Legalism
Faith + Works = Salvation
Christianity
Faith = Salvation + Works
Notice that the same terms are present in both equations. If 'Works' are placed on the left, you have a legalistic religion that is no different from most other world religions. Salvation is all about what you do to get right with God.
Place 'Works' on the right, and you have Christianity. Salvation is all about what Christ has done to make us right with God. And by faith alone in his finished work, we are justified. But justification moves directly into sanctification. As the Reformers would say, "We are justified by faith alone, but not by a faith which is alone." In other words, the faith that justifies men before God will then show itself by good works. The Spirit is active in the believer's life to produce His fruits (Gal 5:22-25). Good works, then, are the inevitable result of salvation in Christ--never its cause.
The Christian must navigate between the Scylla of legalism and the Charybdis of antinomianism. For along that narrow strait is the salvation that is found in the gospel of Christ. Veer too far in one direction and you'll drown in Pharisaical self-righteousness. Too far in the other, and you'll be devoured by sin.
Sola Fide!
-Intrepidus
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 7:58:39 PM
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drmark
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quote:
The Christian must navigate between the Scylla of legalism and the Charybdis of antinomianism. Very important to bring up antinomianism, Intrepidus! I personally think there is far too little attention paid to this extreme, especially on these "Calvinist-heavy" Theology Forums. But, my Arminianism has been grossly confused with legalism on many occasions, so I won't be too harsh on this point.
quote:
Sola Fide! Sola venia!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 11:23:04 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1487
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From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
However to make it more complete I also like the nutshell word phrase- "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, while we are still sinners." Here is why I believe it is also Biblical.
While the verses you quoted are true and correct I didn't see the word "alone" in a single one of them. That's why I have a problem with your phrase "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, while we are still sinners." It sounds good, but I don't find a single verse in Scripture that backs it up. Certainly we are saved by grace through faith, but the word "alone" does not appear in Ephesians 2:8-9.
And I can see jjbird's point that if salvation is by three things (grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone), then it's not by a single one of them alone.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/20/2009 6:56:02 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1850
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
However to make it more complete I also like the nutshell word phrase- "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, while we are still sinners." Here is why I believe it is also Biblical.
While the verses you quoted are true and correct I didn't see the word "alone" in a single one of them. That's why I have a problem with your phrase "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, while we are still sinners." It sounds good, but I don't find a single verse in Scripture that backs it up. Certainly we are saved by grace through faith, but the word "alone" does not appear in Ephesians 2:8-9.
And I can see jjbird's point that if salvation is by three things (grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone), then it's not by a single one of them alone.
Does it have to contain the word "alone"? If you set certain conditions, like "alone must be present in the text," then you can declare that a doctrine isn't true merely on that basis. That is fallacious reasoning. I would submit that words like "apart from works" or "not of works" are sufficient to exclude good works as part of the condition(s).
"Grace alone" is merely the reformists' attempt to explain that it's God's favor that leads to our salvation. We do not curry favor by anything we contribute to the process. Obviously, we are talking about things from the sinner's viewpoint.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/20/2009 7:50:23 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Does it have to contain the word "alone"? If you set certain conditions, like "alone must be present in the text," then you can declare that a doctrine isn't true merely on that basis. That is fallacious reasoning. I would submit that words like "apart from works" or "not of works" are sufficient to exclude good works as part of the condition(s). If we say we are saved by faith alone, then, yes, the word "alone" has to appear in the same verse with the word "faith," fallacious reasoning or not. I totally agree that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. But that doesn't mean that we are saved by faith alone. It just means that we are saved by grace through faith without any works. I guess if we relied on that one passage of Scripture we could make the point that we are saved by faith alone, but there is the rest of the Bible to consider.
quote:
"Grace alone" is merely the reformists' attempt to explain that it's God's favor that leads to our salvation. We do not curry favor by anything we contribute to the process. Obviously, we are talking about things from the sinner's viewpoint. I agree.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/20/2009 8:53:00 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Well, I'm sorry that you've chosen to end our dialogue, jj. I assume you realize that "full obedience" is impossible for a sinner and that misuse of Scripture to justify faulty doctrine is your only resort left. Perhaps we can talk about saving grace some other time. God bless and have a nice day!
Before you jump the gun ending our conversation you should ask what I mean......My conversation has a context.
When I mean full obedience I am not implying perfect obedience to every exact and specific command ever uttered in the bible. However a sinner can most definitely obey the essential commands for salvation. Those require no work at all!
Jesus would not require us to do things he knew we couldn't do! Everything he asks us to do he set the example by doing it first setting the example for us to follow.
< Message edited by jjbird -- 10/20/2009 8:59:09 AM >
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/20/2009 8:54:24 AM
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drmark
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quote:
My conversation has a context. Indeed, one with which I firmly disagree!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/20/2009 11:36:53 AM
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Intrepidus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
However a sinner can most definitely obey the essential commands for salvation.
"Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires... The mind of sinful man is death... the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." (Rom 8:5-8)
quote:
Jesus would not require us to do things he knew we couldn't do! Everything he asks us to do he set the example by doing it first setting the example for us to follow.
'Ought' does not imply 'can.' God commands us to be Perfect and Holy, just as He is. If that's possible, then Christ died for nothing (Gal 2:21). The fact is, the only time we were able to obey God was before the Fall, before we chose to sin in Adam. Since then, we are "slaves to sin" (John 8:34). It's not within our ability to obey God. He must do something first to restore that ability (Eze 36:25-27; Eph 2:8-10). He must break our bondage to the sinful nature. Then, and only then, can we obey Him.
God still holds man responsible to obey Him. That we can no longer obey because we decided to rebel does not in any way absolve us of our responsibility. And those who are not perfectly obedience will pay eternally for their sin. Either our righteousness will be Christ's, applied to our account on the basis of faith alone, satisfying the righteous demands of the law by his perfect obedience, or it will be our own filthy rags (Isa 64:6), in which case we have no hope.
In Christ,
-Intrepidus
< Message edited by Intrepidus -- 10/20/2009 11:54:58 AM >
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/20/2009 4:08:46 PM
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frankman
Posts: 253
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
However to make it more complete I also like the nutshell word phrase- "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, while we are still sinners." Here is why I believe it is also Biblical.
While the verses you quoted are true and correct I didn't see the word "alone" in a single one of them. That's why I have a problem with your phrase "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, while we are still sinners." It sounds good, but I don't find a single verse in Scripture that backs it up. Certainly we are saved by grace through faith, but the word "alone" does not appear in Ephesians 2:8-9.
And I can see jjbird's point that if salvation is by three things (grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone), then it's not by a single one of them alone.
The phrase "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, while we are still sinners" is a theological statement about how we`re saved, and your right, the word "alone" nor the statement above will not be found in Scripture anywhere. But that doesn`t make it a wrong teaching. We all believe in a triune God, however our Oneness friends wouldn`t agree with us because they say the word "trinity" is no where to be found in the Bible.
So we have to use some common sense here. It`s only by God`s grace and our faith in what Christ has done for us by which we are saved. I know there is a Church group that doesn`t like it if I use the wording "Christ alone". However because we`re living in an age of many tolerant beliefs, I feel it is important that we identify the object of our faith, which is "Christ alone" and not Christ plus Buddha, or my church, or Christ plus a certain ritual. Now that would even contradict "grace alone". I know in general most of you know this, however there are people reading these forums that do not know this.
Just a comment on "Intrepidus" good Post#52. This post explains it about as well as one can explain it that there is a difference between saving faith and serving faith. We are saved by saving faith alone, however saving faith is never alone. By this I mean serving and doing good works are always to follow saving faith. Once we have saving faith and it is genuine, it will always result in good works. Martan Luther once said "True faith will no more fail to produce good works than the sun can cease to give light." That`s why if we qoute Eph.2:8+9 we should always quote vs.10 along with it. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God`s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/20/2009 5:39:12 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1487
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
The phrase "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, while we are still sinners" is a theological statement about how we`re saved, and your right, the word "alone" nor the statement above will not be found in Scripture anywhere. But that doesn`t make it a wrong teaching. We all believe in a triune God, however our Oneness friends wouldn`t agree with us because they say the word "trinity" is no where to be found in the Bible.
I see your point about the word "trinity" not appearing in the Bible. Nevertheless the concept of the trinity is found throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. However, when it comes the phrase you used, I don't find that concept anywhere in the Bible. I may be a convenient way to express how some people think salvation occurs, but I contend that it is not the Biblical way. Certainly grace and faith and Christ are all part of salvation, but none of them alone are responsible for salvation. All three together, yes, but any one of them alone, no.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/20/2009 9:11:05 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1850
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Does it have to contain the word "alone"? If you set certain conditions, like "alone must be present in the text," then you can declare that a doctrine isn't true merely on that basis. That is fallacious reasoning. I would submit that words like "apart from works" or "not of works" are sufficient to exclude good works as part of the condition(s). If we say we are saved by faith alone, then, yes, the word "alone" has to appear in the same verse with the word "faith," fallacious reasoning or not. I totally agree that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. But that doesn't mean that we are saved by faith alone. It just means that we are saved by grace through faith without any works. I guess if we relied on that one passage of Scripture we could make the point that we are saved by faith alone, but there is the rest of the Bible to consider.
GD,
I guess I disagree with you that "alone" has to appear in any text in order to establish the doctrine. For example, some people take issue with the doctrine of the trinity--simply on the basis of the word trinity not appearing in the Bible. Likewise, no Bible passage says, "you have to be baptized to get to heaven," but you certainly believe that it is a biblical doctrine. So therefore, I don't how you can be consistent and say that "alone" has to be in the text. I call it fallacious reasoning because you are making a standard of interpretation so biased-- that you can declare the doctrine not suitable or biblical. It is akin to straw man argument (related but not identical).
You are attempting to make something so difficult so you don't have to address the view from a logical standpoint. One of the reasons that I have not visited the baptism thread is that you are so logically inconsistent that it is impossible to have a coherent discussion with you.
Insofar as the rest of the Bible to consider. How many Biblical texts are there that say we are not saved by works? There is not one or two. Certainly, you must know that.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/21/2009 7:50:15 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1487
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
I guess I disagree with you that "alone" has to appear in any text in order to establish the doctrine. For example, some people take issue with the doctrine of the trinity--simply on the basis of the word trinity not appearing in the Bible. Likewise, no Bible passage says, "you have to be baptized to get to heaven," but you certainly believe that it is a biblical doctrine.
As I said, while the word "trinity" does not appear in the Bible the concept is there throughout. Same thing for the phrase"you have to be baptized to get to heaven." The exact phrase may not appear, but the concept is in the New Testament. I retract what I said about the word "alone" having to appear in the verse. It doesn't have to appear. When scripture is compared with scripture it is obvious there there is nothing by itself that results in salvation for an individual. Therefore, to say that "we are saved by grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone" is an unbiblical statement. Even the statement itself makes no sense. How can we be saved by three things and by each one of them alone?
quote:
Insofar as the rest of the Bible to consider. How many Biblical texts are there that say we are not saved by works? There is not one or two. Certainly, you must know that.
I do and I agree completely that we are not saved by works.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/21/2009 4:53:25 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1850
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Therefore, to say that "we are saved by grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone" is an unbiblical statement. Even the statement itself makes no sense. How can we be saved by three things and by each one of them alone?
The word "by" in each of the examples describes a different facet of what God does when He saves us. Each phrase is used differently.
Grace alone describes God's attitude towards us, what He requires of us. In the case of "grace alone," it is the concept of God giving salvation. It is not a quid pro quo. ( http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/quid+pro+quo )
Faith alone describes what God does require of us. We could easily say that we simply receive. It's the same thing essentially. We "do" something but God gets nothing in return. However, we are not passive in receiving his grace.
Christ alone means that no one else does the saving. Of course, it is unspoken and understood that Christ was acting on behalf of His Father. But anyway, we don't participate in the sacrifice required for our own salvation.
The phrases were not meant to confuse the issue. Of course, there are evangelists or messengers who get the word of God to us. There are people who pray for us before we get saved, etc.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/21/2009 4:59:28 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5273
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quote:
The word "by" in each of the examples describes a different facet of what God does when He saves us. Each phrase is used differently. I think it is incorrect to use the word "by" with all three facets. To me, "by" means cause and the only cause of salvation is grace. "Through faith" indicates the manner or mechanism through which grace works to cause salvation. And "in Christ" indicates the object of our faith in Whom we believe. So the correct phrase is "salvation by grace through faith in Christ"!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/21/2009 5:28:22 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1850
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The word "by" in each of the examples describes a different facet of what God does when He saves us. Each phrase is used differently. I think it is incorrect to use the word "by" with all three facets. To me, "by" means cause and the only cause of salvation is grace. "Through faith" indicates the manner or mechanism through which grace works to cause salvation. And "in Christ" indicates the object of our faith in Whom we believe. So the correct phrase is "salvation by grace through faith in Christ"!
I don't know if it is incorrect or not. One of the things I like to keep in mind is that words often have several definitions. In the case of "by," it has 11 in this dictionary web site. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/by
It is true that other words sometimes express the desired meaning better. It really depends on which communicates it in a clearer manner, and how the listener is interpreting the words. You may notice that I use the term "in a sense" or "in that sense" quite a bit. I do that because I am aware of the various ways my words may be taken and I tend to hedge a bit because I want the person I am talking to think carefully and to not misinterpret my words.
I will assume that the word "through" communicates it better to you. And it may indeed be better over all, I don't know. But the words using "by" have long been sloganized by now. They are not apt to change.
BTW, for what it's word the Greek word "eis" (found among other places in Acts 2:38) has been a matter of endless debate. It illustrates how prepositions can be variously interpreted and I wouldn't be surprised if the original language speakers had similar grammatical barriers to understanding.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/21/2009 10:02:21 PM
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jjbird
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Sorry guys! Been out of the loop for the last two days....had to shoot a video for my band's new single....been tied up for hrs!!!
Will be back tomorrow!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/21/2009 11:29:21 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1487
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From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Therefore, to say that "we are saved by grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone" is an unbiblical statement. Even the statement itself makes no sense. How can we be saved by three things and by each one of them alone?
The word "by" in each of the examples describes a different facet of what God does when He saves us. Each phrase is used differently.
Grace alone describes God's attitude towards us, what He requires of us. In the case of "grace alone," it is the concept of God giving salvation. It is not a quid pro quo. ( http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/quid+pro+quo )
Faith alone describes what God does require of us. We could easily say that we simply receive. It's the same thing essentially. We "do" something but God gets nothing in return. However, we are not passive in receiving his grace.
Christ alone means that no one else does the saving. Of course, it is unspoken and understood that Christ was acting on behalf of His Father. But anyway, we don't participate in the sacrifice required for our own salvation.
The phrases were not meant to confuse the issue. Of course, there are evangelists or messengers who get the word of God to us. There are people who pray for us before we get saved, etc.
I agree essentially with what you've posted here. But of the three paragraphs you wrote (concerning grace, faith, and Christ), I don't know that any one of them by itself will cause salvation to occur. Therefore, I still maintain that using the word "alone" is not a biblical way to express what's involved in salvation.
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/22/2009 6:36:51 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1850
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I agree essentially with what you've posted here. But of the three paragraphs you wrote (concerning grace, faith, and Christ), I don't know that any one of them by itself will cause salvation to occur. Therefore, I still maintain that using the word "alone" is not a biblical way to express what's involved in salvation.
They're not a claim for the exhaustive content of the gospel. (For example, there's no mention of sin.) They're essentially slogans. If you think they claim to be then you are mistaking their intent. They were formulated at a time when the RC Church added things to the gospel. For example, the term "Christ alone" was probably a reaction to the Catholic claim that salvation was granted only through the Church. "Grace alone" was a challenge to the idea that works assisted in salvation.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/22/2009 8:19:47 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1487
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I agree essentially with what you've posted here. But of the three paragraphs you wrote (concerning grace, faith, and Christ), I don't know that any one of them by itself will cause salvation to occur. Therefore, I still maintain that using the word "alone" is not a biblical way to express what's involved in salvation.
They're not a claim for the exhaustive content of the gospel. (For example, there's no mention of sin.) They're essentially slogans. If you think they claim to be then you are mistaking their intent. They were formulated at a time when the RC Church added things to the gospel. For example, the term "Christ alone" was probably a reaction to the Catholic claim that salvation was granted only through the Church. "Grace alone" was a challenge to the idea that works assisted in salvation.
That may very well be true, but does that necessarily make them right and correct as slogans? Verses like Ephesians 2:8-9 are not a claim for the exhaustive content of the gospel either, yet many people use them as if they were. And that's what I fear these slogans are being used as too.
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/22/2009 12:28:10 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 664
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
I`m slow, but I`m back. I usually use the preposition phrase- by grace, through faith, in Christ- and I usually add the word "alone" at the end. However to make it more complete I also like the nutshell word phrase- "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, while we are still sinners." Here is why I believe it is also Biblical.
Grace alone= If it where not for God`s grace where would any of us be? Because of our sins, we deserved eternal death. Yet because of God`s grace we received a gift we didn`t deserve. That gift was our salvation given to us not because we did something good to appeace God, but because of God`s AMAZING GRACE. Frankman, the Apostle Paul and John Newton can say AMEN to this one.
Faith alone= Easy one. We all agree we can`t earn our salvation because it is a free gift as Eph.2:8+9 states. So all we can do is believe. The question now is in what? Ask a Muslim and they will answer Muhammad. However we know the right answer.
Christ alone= Eph.1:7 states "In Him we have redempion through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God`s grace." Faith in your good deeds, your Church, your track record etc. will not save you. Only the blood that Jesus shed for you on the cross can save you and forgive your sins.
while we are still sinners.= Rom.5:8 states "But God demonstrated His own love for us in this; While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Now we all agree we can not be saved until our sins are forgiven. We can debate intellectual faith verses saving faith or is baptism necessary for salvation forever, however the bottom line is nobody is going to go to heaven unless their sins are forgiven. Now for this to happen we have to believe first of all that we are sinners. That takes faith. Then I have to believe I can`t forgive myself for breaking God`s commandments. That takes humility. Only God can forgive my sins. That rules out any of my good works. We now trust only in "Christ`s works for us alone" on the cross for me in order to be saved. Our confession of the fact that we`re sinners and only in Christ can we obtain salvation becomes the only way for us to be saved. So because of God`s grace alone we trust by faith alone in the Jesus way alone, while still sinners in order to receive eternal life. The Bible teaches us no other way.
This still does not rectify the problem
I understand why you say each one...Grace, Faith & Christ however you still are contradicting yourself.
If someone is saved by grace alone then we cannot be saved by faith......etc
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/22/2009 4:12:17 PM
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frankman
Posts: 253
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
This still does not rectify the problem
I understand why you say each one...Grace, Faith & Christ however you still are contradicting yourself.
If someone is saved by grace alone then we cannot be saved by faith......etc
I see what you mean. If I said that the colour of my house was black alone, red alone and green alone you would be confused because in describing the colour of my house I would be contradicting myself. However in the above statement I`m describing only the colour of my house. Whereas in the theological statement I`m describing grace, faith and Christ as separate entities.
That`s why I mentioned we have to use some common sense here. Each "alone" slogan is meant to be an entity by itself describing a separate verb or noun which stands alone.So with salvation. It takes grace, faith and Christ. Each being an entity by itself in nature not to be shared with any additional or similar entities.
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"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/22/2009 4:43:36 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Whereas in the theological statement I`m describing grace, faith and Christ as separate entities. It would be a whole lot easier if you would just use the appropriate prepositions as I've described in post #67 above... 
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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