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Evangelical - 10/2/2009 1:22:07 PM
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CitationSquirrel
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While I have posted on other threads, I believe that this is the first time that I am actually beginning a thread. So, in faith, humility and a little fear, I begin.
Now, I don’t want this to go down emergent church path, because there are already threads on that topic out there. Anyway, I was reading Rob Bell’s interview with the Boston Globe in which he talks about the term “evangelical.” I will admit that the media has hijacked the term. If they don’t like you, they call you an evangelical. If they really don’t like you they call you an evangelical fundamentalist. But what strikes me is his comment that he agrees with using the term “evangelical” if “we mean a belief that we together can actually work for change in the world, caring for the environment, extending to the poor generosity and kindness, a hopeful outlook.” First of all, using this definition, you don’t have to be a Christian to be an evangelical. Where is Christ? Second, what about sharing the Gospel with the lost? It seems to me that far too many Christian groups that use the title of evangelical are more interested in social or political causes than missions, foreign or domestic.
Now to be fair, he did say later on Twitter that his comments had been edited (which comments those were he does not say). But, it just drives me nuts to see people, especially within the Christian community, who miss something like this. Evangelical: A Christian, a follower of Christ, who advocates sharing the Gospel message with others. It seems pretty straight-forward to me.
_____________________________
"Prying into [the mysteries of election, predestination, and divine sovereignty] may make theologians, but it will never make saints." -- A.W. Tozer
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RE: Evangelical - 10/2/2009 4:15:51 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CitationSquirrel
While I have posted on other threads, I believe that this is the first time that I am actually beginning a thread. So, in faith, humility and a little fear, I begin.
Now, I don’t want this to go down emergent church path, because there are already threads on that topic out there. Anyway, I was reading Rob Bell’s interview with the Boston Globe in which he talks about the term “evangelical.” I will admit that the media has hijacked the term. If they don’t like you, they call you an evangelical. If they really don’t like you they call you an evangelical fundamentalist. But what strikes me is his comment that he agrees with using the term “evangelical” if “we mean a belief that we together can actually work for change in the world, caring for the environment, extending to the poor generosity and kindness, a hopeful outlook.” First of all, using this definition, you don’t have to be a Christian to be an evangelical. Where is Christ? Second, what about sharing the Gospel with the lost? It seems to me that far too many Christian groups that use the title of evangelical are more interested in social or political causes than missions, foreign or domestic.
Now to be fair, he did say later on Twitter that his comments had been edited (which comments those were he does not say). But, it just drives me nuts to see people, especially within the Christian community, who miss something like this. Evangelical: A Christian, a follower of Christ, who advocates sharing the Gospel message with others. It seems pretty straight-forward to me.
I must also applaud your first time starting a thread also! Very good.
You know, this bothers me. IDK anything about this Bob Bell guy, so I will not speak against him personally; however, it does bother me how so many Christians feel required to acquiesce to the world's standard of goodness. They collapse under the peer pressure, and choose to leave what's most important out of the discussion--Jesus Christ. And then they speak on environmental cleanliness, doing good things for the less fortunate, coming together for world peace and prosperity, a warm-and-fuzzy zen-like get-together, etc  Like you said, where's Christ? All this lip service to the world to make them feel good, but Heaven forbid we speak on the matters that are most important, because we might "offend" them.
If this is how a modern evangelical is described, you can count me out! :) The Holy Spirit's conviction is never a good feeling. It most certainly is offensive! That's the whole point of conviction. The way I see it, if I'm not offending the world, I'm not an evangelical.
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
"Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!"--drmark
"Our will are ours, we know not how; our wills are ours, to make them Thine." - Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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RE: Evangelical - 10/2/2009 8:29:53 PM
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GrahamCracker
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Lot's of good comments. The OP echoes some thoughts I have had.
The term fundamentalist has one meaning in Christian circles and another in media circles. A Muslim fundamentalist or Mormon fundamentalist have very different beliefs. All they have in common is a "back to the basics" basis of their respective religions. A Muslim fundamentalist is basically violent because the original Muslims sought to conquer land and cultures. A Mormon fundamentalist, among other things, practices polygamy because Joseph Smith did.
A Christian fundamentalist originally believed in the basics of the Bible: Trinity, sin, resurrection of Christ, virgin birth of Christ, literalness of biblical revelation, etc.
The media practices an illegitimate semantic transfer idea-wise. It takes the violent trend in Muslim fundamentalism and tries to attach violence to the term fundamentalist inherently. It is as if the term "fundamentalist" inherently means that you are violent, want to take over the USA and its constitution, etc. For proof, they point to the Crusades as if the Crusades had anything to do with fundamentalism. It is amazing the lack of historical perspective and knowledge the media falls prey to.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Evangelical - 10/3/2009 3:06:45 AM
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sue244
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Well as a Fundamentalist, I'm used to my title being twisted by the media which has actually caused me to embrace it even more because it so funny to watch people's reaction when the find out I'm a fundamentalist, who where pants, make up, jewelry and goes to a secular college. So I don't think evangelicals should give up their name without a fight.
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: Evangelical - 10/3/2009 8:05:56 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
Well as a Fundamentalist, I'm used to my title being twisted by the media which has actually caused me to embrace it even more because it so funny to watch people's reaction when the find out I'm a fundamentalist, who where pants, make up, jewelry and goes to a secular college. So I don't think evangelicals should give up their name without a fight.
But it is often required and wise to explain said label. Many people who hear the word "fundamentalist" immediately associate it with terrorists! I don't think you want people walking away from you thinking you are a terrorist simply because you wanted to hang onto a label, right?
_____________________________
"Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!"--drmark
"Our will are ours, we know not how; our wills are ours, to make them Thine." - Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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RE: Evangelical - 10/3/2009 8:25:52 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
Well as a Fundamentalist, I'm used to my title being twisted by the media which has actually caused me to embrace it even more because it so funny to watch people's reaction when the find out I'm a fundamentalist, who where pants, make up, jewelry and goes to a secular college. So I don't think evangelicals should give up their name without a fight.
But it is often required and wise to explain said label. Many people who hear the word "fundamentalist" immediately associate it with terrorists! I don't think you want people walking away from you thinking you are a terrorist simply because you wanted to hang onto a label, right?
I agree. I remember speaking with a lady, Jewish, who asked me if I took the Bible literally. Apparently, she had never given the idea much thought beyond the fact that conservative (fundamentalist and evangelical) Christians took the Bible so literally that they had rejected all logical thought. She didn't seem to want to consider any ideas beyond the preconceptions she already held.
I don't know if they will always give us a chance to redeem the name so slandered. We certainly do a good job of slandering it ourselves. I only wish the media would get a clue concerning what they were talking about.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Evangelical - 10/3/2009 8:41:59 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 2314
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
Well as a Fundamentalist, I'm used to my title being twisted by the media which has actually caused me to embrace it even more because it so funny to watch people's reaction when the find out I'm a fundamentalist, who where pants, make up, jewelry and goes to a secular college. So I don't think evangelicals should give up their name without a fight.
But it is often required and wise to explain said label. Many people who hear the word "fundamentalist" immediately associate it with terrorists! I don't think you want people walking away from you thinking you are a terrorist simply because you wanted to hang onto a label, right?
I agree. I remember speaking with a lady, Jewish, who asked me if I took the Bible literally. Apparently, she had never given the idea much thought beyond the fact that conservative (fundamentalist and evangelical) Christians took the Bible so literally that they had rejected all logical thought. She didn't seem to want to consider any ideas beyond the preconceptions she already held.
I don't know if they will always give us a chance to redeem the name so slandered. We certainly do a good job of slandering it ourselves. I only wish the media would get a clue concerning what they were talking about.
Oh, I guarantee you that the media has a clue. They aren't as ignorant as we'd hoped. Ignorance is one thing that can be fought. Willful deception and slanderous smear tactics are completely different and nearly impossible to fight. The media suffers from the latter disease...
_____________________________
"Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!"--drmark
"Our will are ours, we know not how; our wills are ours, to make them Thine." - Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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RE: Evangelical - 10/3/2009 9:11:50 PM
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dbark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CitationSquirrel
But what strikes me is his comment that he agrees with using the term “evangelical” if “we mean a belief that we together can actually work for change in the world, caring for the environment, extending to the poor generosity and kindness, a hopeful outlook.” First of all, using this definition, you don’t have to be a Christian to be an evangelical. Where is Christ? Second, what about sharing the Gospel with the lost? It seems to me that far too many Christian groups that use the title of evangelical are more interested in social or political causes than missions, foreign or domestic.
...
Evangelical: A Christian, a follower of Christ, who advocates sharing the Gospel message with others. It seems pretty straight-forward to me.
I would say that Rob Bell thinks (and I agree with him) that showing love to people, being generous and kind, taking care of the poor, sick, and oppressed is in fact a large part of the gospel. If God is love, and we are primarily, first and foremost, about loving people and giving of ourselves ... isn't that a big part of it? Isn't that what Jesus spent most of his time on earth telling us to do?
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Evangelical - 10/3/2009 9:15:15 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
I don't know if they will always give us a chance to redeem the name so slandered. We certainly do a good job of slandering it ourselves. I only wish the media would get a clue concerning what they were talking about.
Oh, I guarantee you that the media has a clue. They aren't as ignorant as we'd hoped. Ignorance is one thing that can be fought. Willful deception and slanderous smear tactics are completely different and nearly impossible to fight. The media suffers from the latter disease...
Point taken. But do you really think they are aware of the real meaning of "The Fundamentals"? There was a British journalist on the radio the other day. He has written a book to the effect that fundamentalists of Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all dangerous and basically committed to overturning the American Constitution. As proof of his claim about Christianity, he cited Christian Reconstructionism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Reconstructionism) as voiced by Rushdoony and Gary North. Without even commenting on how allegedly mainstream they are, he was serious. And, apart from the fact that Rushdoony is not a fundamentalist in any modern sense, his logic was convoluted.
Okay, I agree with you that they are doing it intentionally. But they are doing it and they twist Christian leaders' words to the point that the original context isn't recognizable. But I think that many of them believe we are hiding our true agenda and they are uncovering it. Honesty is not the goal. Agenda is.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/4/2009 6:51:27 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Evangelical - 10/3/2009 11:43:00 PM
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sue244
Posts: 860
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
Well as a Fundamentalist, I'm used to my title being twisted by the media which has actually caused me to embrace it even more because it so funny to watch people's reaction when the find out I'm a fundamentalist, who where pants, make up, jewelry and goes to a secular college. So I don't think evangelicals should give up their name without a fight.
But it is often required and wise to explain said label. Many people who hear the word "fundamentalist" immediately associate it with terrorists! I don't think you want people walking away from you thinking you are a terrorist simply because you wanted to hang onto a label, right?
Well no one has ever accused me of being a terrorist when they find out I'm a Fundy. They usually look down and notice I'm wearing pants and will make a statement about that, or the fact that I'm at a Secular college. Which then gives me a chance to give them another view of the word. I refuse to let the media take that title from me. Because there is an important history of Fundamentalist Christians that I don't ever want to lose because I let allowed the media to twist the word.
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: Evangelical - 10/4/2009 3:15:13 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1645
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
Well no one has ever accused me of being a terrorist when they find out I'm a Fundy. They usually look down and notice I'm wearing pants and will make a statement about that, or the fact that I'm at a Secular college. Which then gives me a chance to give them another view of the word. I refuse to let the media take that title from me. Because there is an important history of Fundamentalist Christians that I don't ever want to lose because I let allowed the media to twist the word.
Good for you, and I mean it sincerely. Hopefully, you won't have to face any professors who would detract from your grade for expressing a POV derived from your faith. Some students have. Whether it be a well reasoned and well researched view of the death penalty, euthanasia or abortion, it is one thing to have an opinion that impacts only social your social circles, it is quite another for something that affects your degree plan.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Evangelical - 10/4/2009 3:22:40 PM
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CitationSquirrel
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
I would say that Rob Bell thinks (and I agree with him) that showing love to people, being generous and kind, taking care of the poor, sick, and oppressed is in fact a large part of the gospel. If God is love, and we are primarily, first and foremost, about loving people and giving of ourselves ... isn't that a big part of it? Isn't that what Jesus spent most of his time on earth telling us to do?
I would agree with you that we, as Christians, do need to love people. And, some Christians need to love a little more (I have a non-Christian friend who calls the church he grew up in as the church that loves to hate). The problem I have is that no one seems to be saying that we need to be bringing people to Christ. When Christian leaders cannot see the similarity between the words "evangelical" and "evangelize," then we have a problem. Can we evangelize people by showing them love? Yes. But at some point you really have to show them love by explaining to them that they are lost, that Christ died for them, and that they need to ask Him to be their Savior. Unfortuneately too much of the church today wants us to love people but doesn't want us to really love people.
You might not have meant it the way I'm taking it, but I do have one issue with something you said. God is love. But, I am not primarily, first and foremost about loving people. I am primarily, first and formost about loving Jesus Christ. A by-product of my love for Him will be that I do love others and give of myself. You may have meant that (if so, forgive me), but I just want to clarify.
_____________________________
"Prying into [the mysteries of election, predestination, and divine sovereignty] may make theologians, but it will never make saints." -- A.W. Tozer
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RE: Evangelical - 10/4/2009 3:55:22 PM
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sue244
Posts: 860
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From: Colorado
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
Well no one has ever accused me of being a terrorist when they find out I'm a Fundy. They usually look down and notice I'm wearing pants and will make a statement about that, or the fact that I'm at a Secular college. Which then gives me a chance to give them another view of the word. I refuse to let the media take that title from me. Because there is an important history of Fundamentalist Christians that I don't ever want to lose because I let allowed the media to twist the word.
Good for you, and I mean it sincerely. Hopefully, you won't have to face any professors who would detract from your grade for expressing a POV derived from your faith. Some students have. Whether it be a well reasoned and well researched view of the death penalty, euthanasia or abortion, it is one thing to have an opinion that impacts only social your social circles, it is quite another for something that affects your degree plan.
Well since I'm a history major and religion plays a huge role in history I've become the go to student for professors to explain religious concepts such as Election or Transubstantiation (sp?) or more details on the reformation so it works for me.
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: Evangelical - 10/4/2009 5:15:26 PM
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sue244
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Oh I'm very use to the liberal bent of History, but so far I've been blessed with professors who don't take a negative view of people putting the conservative bent in papers.
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: Evangelical - 10/4/2009 8:18:54 PM
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Nate79
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Perfect example of why labels are so useless because they mean different things depending on the person. I never saw being "evangelical" as a bad thing, because where I grew up, that meant you held fast to the basic doctrines of the faith. In other circles, apparently it's a term used derisively for people who are too wishy washy.
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RE: Evangelical - 10/4/2009 8:32:36 PM
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GrahamCracker
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nate79
Perfect example of why labels are so useless because they mean different things depending on the person. I never saw being "evangelical" as a bad thing, because where I grew up, that meant you held fast to the basic doctrines of the faith. In other circles, apparently it's a term used derisively for people who are too wishy washy.
I don't think that labels are useless. There is a tendency toward obscurantism that makes labeling difficult. George Orwell noted (in 1984) that societies can confuse the masses by denying the clarity of words. In his novel, the thoughts of words were confused with their exact opposites. These days, we notice that some people don't want to own up to appropriate labels because the appropriate label is unpopular. In religious circles, people don't want to be just "x" (pick your denomination) because there are so many doctrines that they either cannot explain or they cannot agree with. They much rather prefer an overly broad generalization because it gives them a chance to explain their views without everyone prejudicing them.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/4/2009 9:26:08 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Evangelical - 10/6/2009 12:10:00 PM
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cposey
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Personally I think we as Christians are getting what we deserve. So many people want to label themselves according to their denomination. We have created denominations adn allowed others to label us. If we didn't want to be called anything other than Christians then we should have left it at that and not self created human made up titles. Guess we should do what HIS word says huh?
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RE: Evangelical - 10/6/2009 1:15:17 PM
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sue244
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From: Colorado
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I get what you are saying but people are always going to label us. Even the name Christian was a name given to us by the world and was meant as an insult. If you notice in Acts prior to being called Christa ins, they were just refer ed to as "followers of the Way".
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: Evangelical - 10/9/2009 9:30:49 AM
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cajunhillbilly
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The term evanelical means you belive in the Good News of salvation through Jesus Christ. I have no idea where anyone got the impression that evangelicals are wishy washy or did not hold to the basics of the faith. When asked I call myself an evangelical, which to me has always meant belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, His substitutionary atonement and salvation by grace alone through faith alone.
_____________________________
"A Stargate. You know, kind of a ring thing. Comes with a dialer. You hit some symbols. The lights come on. It spins around. And then it flushes sideways" Jack O'Neill on Stargate SG1
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RE: Evangelical - 10/24/2009 1:25:03 PM
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rwe2156
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We spend too much time talking about what we believe
than being what we have received.
Hypocrisy is the #1 condemnation of the church.
We are not people of the Way, we are people of our way.
_____________________________
Fiction: There is more than one way to be saved.
Fact: There is more than one way to understand
how we were saved.
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RE: Evangelical - 10/24/2009 1:48:08 PM
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GroupW
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I think the point of Bells statement that being known as an evangelical is not a bad thing as long as we use the term in a broad sense - in other words including faith in Christ but not excluding issues of social justice.
I don't mind being called evangelical among friends that know me, but it makes me uncomfortable in other circles because some people assume it just means that I'm against abortion and gay marriage.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Evangelical - 10/24/2009 3:46:11 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
I think the point of Bells statement that being known as an evangelical is not a bad thing as long as we use the term in a broad sense - in other words including faith in Christ but not excluding issues of social justice.
I don't mind being called evangelical among friends that know me, but it makes me uncomfortable in other circles because some people assume it just means that I'm against abortion and gay marriage.
We are caught in a dilemma. If we don't speak out on social and political issues, we are by default leaving them to the world and to nonchristians. If we do speak out on social and political causes, we become known for what we are against and not for what we are for. Evangelical means that we believe one has a relationship with Christ based on a salvation experience through faith.
Until around 30 years ago, many social and political views Christians held were reinforced by the world. If we said we were against abortion, a large portion of the unbelieving world would echo our sentiments. Then they shifted and evangelicals became one of the few voices (along with Catholics and Mormons) to continue to reject things like abortion and homosexuality.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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There has been a tendency in liberalism toward historical revisionism. I'm sure you already know that.
