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Church Covenants
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| Yes, I would sign a covenant |
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| No, I would not sign a covenant |
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Total Votes : 24
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(last vote on : 11/9/2009 9:46:22 AM)
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Church Covenants - 7/21/2009 12:27:41 PM
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crankius
Posts: 3750
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I started a thread on this probably a couple of years ago, but I want to revisit the topic.
quote:
What is a ‘Church Covenant’?
A church covenant can be described in five different ways.
1. A church covenant is a promise - a promise made to God, to a local church, and to one’s self.
2. A church covenant is a summary of how we agree to live...It does not include every explicit command regarding obedience, but it does give a general summary of what it means to live as a disciple of Christ.
3. A church covenant is a sign of commitment – a commitment to God, to His church, and to personal holiness.
4. A church covenant is an ethical statement. Historian Charles W. DeWeese writes, “A church covenant is a series of written pledges based on the Bible which church members voluntarily make to God and to one another regarding their basic moral and spiritual commitments and the practice of their faith” (Baptist Church Covenants, p. viii)...
5. A church covenant is a biblical standard. A church covenant is helpful in a church that is practicing Biblical church discipline. As members of a church, we exhort one another to live holy lives, and we challenge brothers and sisters persisting in sin.
Link to article. You can read the rest of the article to see an example of a church covenant.
Personally, I do not find church covenants to be biblical, and I believe I would be breaking Scripture to sign one.
What do you think of church covenants?
Can anyone cite Scriptural support for requiring the signing of a covenant statement as a condition of membership?
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/21/2009 2:15:58 PM
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Qtman
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Every church I have ever belonged to asked questions when I presented myself for membership. I think most people orally agree or enter into a covenant with the church when they seek membership. I may be wrong but that seems to be the way it has been with me.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/21/2009 2:17:49 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1970
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
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My Salvation came individually, from God, to me, by His Grace. He came into mortality, to pay the price for my sin that I could never pay completely, so I can, through that shed blood, be cleansed unto the perfection required of every soul, to be allowed access to God in Heaven. We, of the Church, are each and everyone saved in this same manner, IMO, for a specific reason, God desires individual character to be a part of our individual being, that He might know us, each, by name, and enjoy our relationship with him on an individual, and very personal basis, in a 'one of a kind' relationship. Yeee-Haaa!! 
The Church, still IMO, is comprised of people, of similar persuasion, and understanding, who come together before God, to Praise Him, Pay Homage, Study His word as a group, Encourage each other to greater understanding and works (toward reward), as a part of God's Holy Family.
Too often, I fear, the Covenant of the 'Church,' though intended to glorify God, is used as a hammer, and a fence, where the 'Letter' of the Covenant words become Law, hammering each persons character of belief into a clone of the majority. This also tends to fence out any person who finds themselves far enough askew of the Covenant, they are uncomfortable enough to not join in, out of comfort and desire, or be excluded out, by vote of the group. (Roughly said, and in need of political polishing, but...)
Another thread bespeaks the need, and logic for attending 'Church' events, and some, I believe, are very uncomfortable with the Church attendance, and tythe pressure being much of the problem.
The only true commandment that I know of is when God spoke, and wrote, the fourth commandment
(Exo 20:8 KJV) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Oh, there are other verses that indicate one should attend Church gatherings, and I agree that we should gather in worship.
Perhaps I have overstated my position, so I will close the fingers down, and someone else can fill some page space. Ha 
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/21/2009 2:19:09 PM
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WesP
Posts: 1444
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From: Where God needs me to be
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I'd say let yes be yes and no be no. There is no need to sign such a document. What would you do if the church altered its doctrine in later years, and it went against the bible? You would be bound to something that would then be against God.
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Peace,
Wes
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/21/2009 3:24:09 PM
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crankius
Posts: 3750
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
Personally, I do not find church covenants to be biblical, and I believe I would be breaking Scripture to sign one
What scriptures do you base your stance on?
Just wondering because our family will start membership classes at our church(OPC) in Aug.. I don't know if they make want you to sign a covenant or not. We do have a binder of inof. that was given to us, but I haven't read through the whole thing.
Do you have a problem with church membership too? 
A few Scriptures stand out strongest in my mind.
1. God will hold me responsible for my words (Matt 12:36-37)
2. I need to let my yes be yes and my no be no (James 5:12)
3. We are not to be yoked with unbelievers, yet within the church there are tares among the wheat (2 Cor 6:14-18, tares passages in Matthew 13)
I have a running list of reasons why I won't sign a covenant statement, but I won't bore you by listing them all.
I completely understand a church having a doctrine statement and asking that all people working and teaching in the ministry agree to that doctrine statement and not teach contrary to it.
As for membership, I don't know...I feel torn about it. I understand the need to keep a running list of those who are considered among the body. The best way to know who are considered among the body is to look and see who is among the body.  But that's too simple, so they make lists and make statements for people to sign, which can be silly because some will sign the documents but then not really be among the body active and serving and loving, etc.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
Church Covenants
wepanicinapew 
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/21/2009 3:34:14 PM
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crankius
Posts: 3750
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
Too often, I fear, the Covenant of the 'Church,' though intended to glorify God, is used as a hammer, and a fence, where the 'Letter' of the Covenant words become Law, hammering each persons character of belief into a clone of the majority. This also tends to fence out any person who finds themselves far enough askew of the Covenant, they are uncomfortable enough to not join in, out of comfort and desire, or be excluded out, by vote of the group. (Roughly said, and in need of political polishing, but...)
From what I understand, the Separatists started covenant statements as a way to define the church as exclusively for saints. You could not participate in the sacraments unless you were a saint by their estimation, a regenerate person. They believed church was only for regenerate people, and did not want any unregenerate people among them. Of course church is for the saints, but at times, some of the early churches were so narrow in their definition of regenerate that very few people could be members--it wasn't enough to profess Christ and follow Him.
I can't find covenants prior to around 1500. If anyone has any history of covenants earlier than that, I'd be interested in knowing of them.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
Church Covenants
wepanicinapew
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/21/2009 4:03:41 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6726
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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Member applicants after vetting, stand before the Church and state the reasons for for thier beliefs, when the were first saved, baptized, and that they adhere to the doctrines of our Church and the New Testament. They also state that they will be honorable witnesses to Christ and this particular body of Christ with thier lives. They also state that they offer themselves to be subject to accountability and diciplice as laid out in the New Testament.
We do not require a signed document.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/23/2009 8:47:02 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6340
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
I don't get the verses you posted as to why you won't sign a covenant. I understand we are accountable to God, but He did put those leaders in place and we are to be obedient to them aren't we? If a church has a covenent that needs to be signed wouldn't you do it out of obedience, unless of course you don't agree with certain thing?
Some church covenants were compiled, not by leadership within a particular church, but from the membership or from higher associational body (state or national). Some parts of covenants seek to remove certain matters of conscience.
An example: According to the wording on several I've seen, you are in violation of the covenant if you work or shop in a grocery store that sell beer or wine. Since that is nearly impossible today, the churches tend to ignore that aspect and will only discipline a member for going to a liquor store or bar for the express purpose of buying alcoholic beverages. So you have selective enforcement of a covenant, rendering it, IMO, void.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/23/2009 9:18:26 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5296
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No thanks.
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/23/2009 10:29:36 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5742
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Membership rolls is very useful in garnering finances
when applying for loans. lol.
Covenants?
I wouldn't sign one today.
We don't have membership rolls.
If a born again person attends and supports this church, he/she is a member.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/23/2009 2:38:42 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
No thanks.
If you don't mind sharing, I'm curious to know your reasons.
Legalism.
Navybluret detailed my reasons perfectly.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/23/2009 2:57:36 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6340
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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The churches I've been in that had a church covenant just handed them out to new members and, as best as I can recall, didn't actually require anyone to sign them. But the implication was that if you were a member, you were in agreement with the statements.
If you read the Baptist Faith & Message on the Southern Baptist website, there is no statement about alcohol. Where you encounter it usually is in individual church's Church Covenants. I received a copy when I joined my current SBC church. But the church seems to have foresaken them because a friend of mine, a Bible Study teacher for young adults, tried to find one recently and there were none to be found from staff or the Sunday School office.
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/25/2009 12:12:17 PM
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lw9
Posts: 873
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quote:
Personally, I do not find church covenants to be biblical, and I believe I would be breaking Scripture to sign one.
What do you think of church covenants?
You already know my answer, crankius, because we've been in several of those threads over the years. As always, I completely agree and voted an emphatic NO!! Well, actually it was just a 'no' since 'emphatic no' wasn't one of the choices, but I did click the button firmly and with emphasis.
Besides the great reasons already mentioned, I will add another reason for my not doing such a thing.
Written covenants are vague, and I see that even in the one posted in the OP as well. They can be interpreted or reinterpreted at the will and the whim of church leadership:
"Do not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. Attending regularly is vital..."
Ok, now define regular attendance. You think once or twice a week, the church leadership thinks it's three times a week. OR, leadership takes a turn for the whacky and decides church attendance means every service, every picnic, every Bible study, every potluck. You think they're wrong, they think you're wrong, and either way, you're breaking a covenant by not keeping the church standard.
"We will seek, by Divine aid, to live carefully in the world, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,"
Define ungodliness and lust. Is that the usual list of the obvious, or can that include something particular to a church like watching certain television shows and movies not approved/liked by a leader. Over time can that come to include all television and all movies depending on the direction of leadership? Sure could. Can a churchs' definition of ungodliness include a little known or talked about funky church rule like 'We shun Hot Tamales candy because it's clearly of the devil'? Sure could because it's vague enough to include whatever anyone wants to slip in there.
Standards and definitions differ from local church to church, and they can change and evolve over time. I don't see the wisdom in binding myself to something like that. The Bible doesn't instruct us to do this, so why would church leadership. On a bigger picture level, I don't want to be bound to a local church entity or organization because should it go astray through doctrinal error, abuse of power, bad change of direction... I want no part of it. I'm bound to Jesus Christ and already a member of His Church, and that's fine with me.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 7/25/2009 1:12:49 PM >
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Thi4f... seriously, guys?? This does not bode well.
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/27/2009 6:38:32 AM
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sirwintery
Posts: 2503
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From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Standards and definitions differ from local church to church, and they can change and evolve over time. I don't see the wisdom in binding myself to something like that. The Bible doesn't instruct us to do this, so why would church leadership. On a bigger picture level, I don't want to be bound to a local church entity or organization because should it go astray through doctrinal error, abuse of power, bad change of direction... I want no part of it. I'm bound to Jesus Christ and already a member of His Church, and that's fine with me.
Yeah, what she said. I voted "No".
< Message edited by SirWintery -- 7/27/2009 6:45:46 AM >
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/27/2009 2:03:34 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5589
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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I would say yes, just like I have in every other previous Convenant Signing thread and posted a link to our own covenant.
_____________________________
Rest assured, dear friends, that where your pleasure is, there your heart is.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/30/2009 10:41:06 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5589
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From: The higher lowcountry
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Hey Crankius! Please know up front that I understand why so many do not like or believe in membership covenants. However, we are convinced that there is biblical grounds, but that's our conviction and appreciate the differences and diversity in the rest of the body.
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Sincerely, can you give me a solid defense from Scripture for using covenant statements? A healthy exchange on this would be truly beneficial for me.
I clipped a portion of ours just to give a foundation of "why."
quote:
These Commitments are intended to help us build a strong community of faith. By community, we mean a group of people who have voluntarily joined together to encourage and support one another as we worship God, grow in our understanding of his love for us, and seek to tell others about the salvation and peace they, too, can find through faith in Jesus Christ.
We know that true community isn’t easy to achieve. Each of us brings our own expectations and agendas into the church. This diversity usually leads to rich discussions and creative ministries; but sometimes it can lead to conflict. As James 4:1-2 warns, “What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don’t get it.”
That certainly describes us! At times, no matter how hard we try to build a close community of faith, our desires and expectations still clash. That’s where these Commitments come in. They pull together key principles from God’s Word and serve as our relational guidelines. These Commitments accomplish several important purposes:
· They remind us of our mutual commitment to work together to pursue unity, maintain friendships, preserve marriages, and build relationships that reflect the love of Christ.
· They help to prevent surprises, disappointed expectations, confusion and conflict by describing how we expect to relate to one another within the church.
· They provide a clear track for us to run on when conflict threatens to divide us, and they remind us how to move quickly toward reconciliation.
· They establish guidelines for how our leaders will counsel others, guard confidential information, and protect our children from abuse.
· They define and limit the spiritual authority of church leaders and thereby insure that all members are treated fairly. [1]
· Finally, they reduce our church’s exposure to legal liability by clearly establishing our relational practices and by affirming our mutual commitment to resolve conflict biblically.[2]
As you read our Relational Commitments, we encourage you to study the Bible passages that are cited next to particular provisions. We want you to be confident that these Commitments are based solidly on the Word of God. If your study does not answer all of your questions and concerns, please do not hesitate to approach our leaders, who will be happy to talk with you about these principles.
[1] When we use the term “leader” in these Commitments, we are referring to the elders of our church.
[2] See www.PeacemakerChurch.net for information on how these Commitments can help to prevent conflict and reduce exposure to legal liability in our church.
After this, each point of the covenant is listed and has tons of scripture to back it...however, I think you were more interested as to the "why" for having one at all and I hope this gives you some answers. At least from what we do.
_____________________________
Rest assured, dear friends, that where your pleasure is, there your heart is.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Church Covenants - 7/30/2009 10:58:18 AM
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crankius
Posts: 3750
Joined: 4/12/2005
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lw9, I'm glad you posted. I remember your comments from last time we had a covenant thread. I think what you state is true, and I share the same concerns. Some statements that stood out to me:
"They can be interpreted or reinterpreted at the will and the whim of church leadership"
"and either way, you're breaking a covenant by not keeping the church standard."
"it's vague enough to include whatever anyone wants to slip in there."
"Standards and definitions differ from local church to church, and they can change and evolve over time."
"I don't want to be bound to a local church entity or organization because should it go astray through doctrinal error, abuse of power, bad change of direction"
All true. This statement, and they can change and evolve over time, is a big warning flag to me as well, because I've been in churches that started out one way but when the leadership changes or when the general make-up of the Body changes then the church goes nuts . If I had signed a covenant statement at one of our previous churches, it would have been a real pickle for me because I would have had to break that covenant. Yikes. Covenants are not to be broken. I take covenants extremely seriously.
You also stated, "I'm bound to Jesus Christ and already a member of His Church, and that's fine with me."
Agree. I greatly enjoy being bound in Christ with my local fellowship.
Our covenant together is signed with Christ's blood...to make a man-made promise/covenant that we sign just really seems to cheapen Christ's covenant.
It would be like my husband giving me a long list of statements on our wedding day and asking that I make an additional covenant and sign that pledge...promising to do all those things. It would cheapen the marriage covenant I think, and it would say all sorts of negative things to me about that fella and I would think I needed to  .
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
Church Covenants
wepanicinapew
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