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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/19/2009 10:42:36 PM
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herestoresmysoul
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I think it is telling that studies have shown that since women have had all these 'choices' about doing what they want and have a career and kids and husbands and money etc etc they are actually more stressed and unhappy than ever.Why is that then? Could it be that it all becomes too much to handle?
Bringing up children is a full time job and more, and maybe women just spread themselves too thin by working and haivng a full time career as well. Many can only do this by expecting others to look after their children in nurseries and often expect their parents to become full time parents sgain for their grandchildren (which in my opnion just isnt fair) while they choose to work.
Someone has to look after their children, if they arent doing it then others have to.Why have them if they dont wnat to bring them up and spend little time with them? I dont get it myself.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 12:34:01 AM
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a_sparrow
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quote:
I think it is telling that studies have shown that since women have had all these 'choices' about doing what they want and have a career and kids and husbands and money etc etc they are actually more stressed and unhappy than ever.Why is that then? Could it be that it all becomes too much to handle?
Bringing up children is a full time job and more, and maybe women just spread themselves too thin by working and haivng a full time career as well. Many can only do this by expecting others to look after their children in nurseries and often expect their parents to become full time parents sgain for their grandchildren (which in my opnion just isnt fair) while they choose to work.
Someone has to look after their children, if they arent doing it then others have to.Why have them if they dont wnat to bring them up and spend little time with them? I dont get it myself.
A lot of it is, I think, that women, regardless of whether they work outside the home, are expected to take care of everything inside it and the children as well, and the burden of all this is just excessive in most cases - especially for those women who are also watching their husbands work 8-hour days and spend the rest of their lives in front of the X-box, or whatever it's called. And in many circumstances a woman's working situation is not her choice. Many husbands would consider their wives to have stopped pulling their weight if the wives upped and quit their jobs.
I don't think that placing children in childcare for 8-9 hours or so 5 days a week is the equivalent of not raising your children, or means you hardly see them. I was cared for by a nanny while my mother worked from 6 months of age onward. There was never any doubt, however, that my parents, particularly my mother, were raising me, and my primary bond was with her.
As for grandparents watching children on work days, I agree that it is not fair or reasonable to expect that this will happen. Some families, however, are very close, and the generations take care of each other. I don't see anything wrong with that.
quote:
I've never seen a verse that says that women, upon having children, can't work outside the home
I haven't either.
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It's in a lot of the posts in the thread that was shut down, Maggie. Odd thing is, most of the men were saying women use education/careers as power.
Could that possibly be because women have been insisting for decades that without college-education and a career they are powerless? Women make work/income about power just as much as men do, if not more. How many times have I been told I should have gotten a degree or had some job experience because men are undependable beasts and women should not allow themselves to be powerless and up a creek? Lots.
Having an income or even the ability to generate one gives a woman (or anyone) a measure of independence, which in turn may protect her from being controlled by the domineering and the unscrupulous. (And no, I'm not suggesting that all men are domineering or unscrupulous.) This is a different point from the argument made in the other thread - that men are supposed to be the ones in control, and that women working outside the home disrupt that order (presumably by gaining the independence a paycheck may bring).
Now that I think about it, perhaps there are some who believe that all relationships are inherently about power and control, and that it's a zero sum game. One party will inevitably be dominated by the other. If a woman works outside the home, she has seized power illegitimately. That's the only way I can make sense of some of the posts in that thread, particularly the ones aimed at solo_soprano and the higher education level disparity in her relationship.
quote:
On a less serious note, solo_soprano...the other topic that's blending with this one read like The Taming of the Shrew.
LOL, that's exactly what it was.
_____________________________
Elizabeth
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 5:52:33 AM
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herestoresmysoul
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano23
Where does the Bible say a woman is to stay at home once she has babies? I see verses that say to take care of/manage the house... to be busy at home... things to that effect. It seems like the Proverbs 31 woman was busy both inside and outside the home working because that benefitted her family. I'm not trying to be facetious, and I hope we can discuss things nicely, but I've never seen a verse that says that women, upon having children, can't work outside the home (as long as inside the home is taken care of).
Most of the time, people say it's a biblical mandate that wives stay home when they have kids. The others say it's not a mandate, but a choice based on individual families. It can't be both.
Well I 've never seen a verse that says a women SHOULD work out side the home.when the children are around.
I think that it is so sad that as more and more women have worked outside the home the number of marriages that have ended is so high. I know 4 women personally just in my family and my husband ex family where the wives have met someone at work and had an affair. I know men do this, but the number of married women havivng affairs is creeping up closer to that of men.
Also my husbands ex decided she wanted to go to work and then proceeded to save ALL of her money for herself as she was planning a divorce (and she was another one who met a man at work and had an affair) if she hadnt done this she would never have met him and wouldnt have had all this money so that she was able to disobey God and divorce her husband for no Biblical reason.
.My husband didnt want her to work and as it turned out he was wise about that. She certainly didnt need to financially.It was purely for selfish reasons.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 7:17:31 AM
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SurpassingPeace
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I agree that a woman should be able to work outside of the home, if her duties as keeper of the home are taken care of, by either herself or delegation. The questions becomes, is that possible for most women? I would say no. Most of the women I know that are working outsid the home with children often complain that they cannot keep up with housework, don't get to see their children enough, and feed their family on a steady diet of overprocessed and fast food. Some many of these women are stressed, overwhelmed, and unhappy. Perhaps it is a case of if only their husband would or if only their children would. But what every the case, they are often stressed out and unhappy.
I believe the superwoman ideal has placed unrealitic stress on women. I believe that many are stretching themselves too thin and overworking in order to be everything to everyone. The result is often they are not enough to anyone.
For many reasons I choose to be a sahm. I believe it is what is best for me and my family. I think most families would benefit it from it and should choose to be home with their children. I think a full time job simply takes too much time and energy away from the family. That being said, I am happy to have a choice. I would not be happy if we were back in a time that I was not allowed to work.
Karen
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 12:39:07 PM
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solo_soprano24
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quote:
ORIGINAL: herestoresmysoul
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano23
Where does the Bible say a woman is to stay at home once she has babies? I see verses that say to take care of/manage the house... to be busy at home... things to that effect. It seems like the Proverbs 31 woman was busy both inside and outside the home working because that benefitted her family. I'm not trying to be facetious, and I hope we can discuss things nicely, but I've never seen a verse that says that women, upon having children, can't work outside the home (as long as inside the home is taken care of).
Most of the time, people say it's a biblical mandate that wives stay home when they have kids. The others say it's not a mandate, but a choice based on individual families. It can't be both.
Well I 've never seen a verse that says a women SHOULD work out side the home.when the children are around.
I think that it is so sad that as more and more women have worked outside the home the number of marriages that have ended is so high. I know 4 women personally just in my family and my husband ex family where the wives have met someone at work and had an affair. I know men do this, but the number of married women havivng affairs is creeping up closer to that of men.
Also my husbands ex decided she wanted to go to work and then proceeded to save ALL of her money for herself as she was planning a divorce (and she was another one who met a man at work and had an affair) if she hadnt done this she would never have met him and wouldnt have had all this money so that she was able to disobey God and divorce her husband for no Biblical reason.
.My husband didnt want her to work and as it turned out he was wise about that. She certainly didnt need to financially.It was purely for selfish reasons.
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There's no verse going either way then. It seems like this issue is more personal opinion rather than Biblical mandate. And of course, it just depends on what works for your particular family.
I know plenty of women who work outside the home who have good marriages, that have lasted decades. You can't blame a job and money on people running around behaving poorly.  If a couple marries, then it's on them to be faithful to each other. If men or women are tempted by others at work, that's not society's fault. If you cheat, that's on you. It's not your job's fault. It's not your money's fault. It's not "wrong place, wrong time"'s fault. It's your fault.
< Message edited by solo_soprano23 -- 9/20/2009 1:02:17 PM >
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 1:35:52 PM
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Sideways
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And I have to say that I know a lot of women who earn and paycheck and have children are pretty happy with their lives. In my experience, they are no more stressed out then SAHM's, nor do they eat all that unhealthy.
I know for a fact that plenty of SAHM's get stressed out and unhappy, and there are quite a lot of them at McDonald's looking for something to do with their kids during the day. I should know, sometimes I'm one of them. 
If someone is unhappy with their lives, and they have the means to change things, then they should, but I can't say what would make other women happy. I only know what works for me and my family.
Certainly we should never pressure or try to force a woman to stay at home, because we know better then she does and we know what's best for her. We don't. Two parents working together for the good of their family, often with family support, can raise happy, healthy children and be reasonably happy themselves, in a wide variety of ways.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 2:30:51 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I can understand some people who think that if a couple has children, someone must stay home with them. I can understand even better those who say that if a couple has children, they should stay home and home-school them. But some women do not have either luxury. It is curious to me that there is always someone who will criticize women who need to work.
When I was widowed as a young mother, I was told that I was sinning to work. Amazing. And now that all the children (present husband's and mine) are in their own homes, I am criticized by some that I work.
Well, there's always someone who will just love to criticize anything we do, because they are so unhappy with their own lives that they spend their time criticizing others in order to avoid dealing with their own issues. How many of us know someone like that?
And how many of us know someone who always wants to advise, teach, and fix others, but a look into their own lives reveals huge problems of which they are oblivious?
Those who constantly criticize are just more bitter/angry versions of the latter.
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 9/20/2009 2:38:35 PM >
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 3:41:16 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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The problem is that it is not a one size fits all situation. I know many people who make it work. A dear friend of mine and her husband both work 4 days a week. They stagger their days off so their son only needs care 3 days a week. Grandpa takes one, grandma takes one, and the last one he goes to a friends house and runs and plays on the farm all day. He is 7, homeschooled, and it works for them. It is hard on their marriage because they get little time together but they both must work so they worked it out. I have a another friend who is a chemist and her husband stays home. She makes so much more money than he could as a teacher. It works for them. Like I said, if it works for you family that is great.
Solo-soprano23, I do not have to know every woman to see a trend. I worked in an office that had a little over a hundred women. I have a wide social circle, or did before the kiddos came along. My sphere included women that ran the gamut of socio-economic and eduction. For some reason, people have always talked to me. I am stating from these experiences that a majority, a large majority actually, were not making it work. They were exhausted, overwhelmed, and running in circles. To me it is tragic to see women trying to be everything to everyone. It is like it wears their soul thin.
Then you have the children. I know other women, too many really, who put their children in daycare at 7am and get them out between 5-6pm. That is 10 hours a child is being raised by someone else. Ten hours a day that your child is not with a parent. So your evening consists of trying to rush them through dinner, get them in the bath, and get them to bed. When do you teach them the morals and values you hold dear? The weekends? When do you spend the time your children need to make them feel loved and valued? The weekends? Add cleaning and errands into that weekend and you might as well give up sleep.
I know this is not popular but I think families need to consider needs over wants. I am not talking about being widowed or single. Goodness, whoever said you should stop working under those conditions should have backed it up with a support check to make it possible. What I am talking about is a woman's need to advance in her career, pursue her goals, and find success outside the home to the detriment of the children. Please note, I am not saying you can't have these things but they should not come above your children's needs.
I have been told by a couple of woman that they are better mothers because they work outside the home. The children are better off because mom is happy and fulfilled by her career and she really thinks that is what the children would prefer. This may be harsh but I think the children would be much happier if their mother would be self sacrificing, put off her professional fulfillment, and give them the time, discipline, attention, and love they deserve rather than putting them in an institution more than 8 hours a day. I really think that if your career must come above your babies needs then perhaps you should rethink your decision to have children. I know many careers cannot hold up if you are absent from the field for 5 plus years but I think it is even more detrimental to children to not get the one on one parenting during those early years.
Recently, there have been a ton of Walmart scenarios over in parenting folder. These horrible children melting down because their parents are too permissive or don't spank or ate lead or whatever. I have really been wondering if it is not more due to our face paced lifestyle, disconnect due to technology, and those crazy weekends where you are trying to cram in everything that is not your work life. Maybe if these children had a lot more time and attention they wouldn't be acting out in order to get any attention that they can. I know that is not the only reason but I believe it is part of it.
Our babies are only little for such a short time. They grow up and that opportunity is gone. Is it really worth missing that so you can protect your career and your own fulfillment? The answer for me was a resounding no.
Karen
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 4:27:34 PM
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solo_soprano24
Posts: 2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: a_sparrow
Having an income or even the ability to generate one gives a woman (or anyone) a measure of independence, which in turn may protect her from being controlled by the domineering and the unscrupulous. (And no, I'm not suggesting that all men are domineering or unscrupulous.) This is a different point from the argument made in the other thread - that men are supposed to be the ones in control, and that women working outside the home disrupt that order (presumably by gaining the independence a paycheck may bring).
Now that I think about it, perhaps there are some who believe that all relationships are inherently about power and control, and that it's a zero sum game. One party will inevitably be dominated by the other. If a woman works outside the home, she has seized power illegitimately. That's the only way I can make sense of some of the posts in that thread, particularly the ones aimed at solo_soprano and the higher education level disparity in her relationship.
quote:
On a less serious note, solo_soprano...the other topic that's blending with this one read like The Taming of the Shrew.
LOL, that's exactly what it was.
Yes, it was. :)
I wanted to comment about education disparity, since it was brought up in the other thread. I think sometimes people just feel threatened about this. I see a lot of males in my life especially who feel a threat when a female is more educated than they are... or if they earn more. I have this degree because I wanted it and went after it; I'm going on one of these days just so I can be as highly qualified as possible to do the jobs and research. I don't even intend on it mattering any when I marry, and this is why I don't care what education level someone else has. This isn't a job application.  I don't reject men based on whether or not they have a degree, or how many they have, or if theirs is better than mine-- whatever that would be. But, some men do see it as a threat. Or they think in "levels." A biologist and a waiter can't marry, but a waiter and waitress or two scientists can. I can understand doing that because you want someone with similar interests, but the poster seemed to be thinking more from a "why are you dating someone 'beneath' you" point of view.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 5:06:11 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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Oops, sorry I replied to part of your post you edited out. My post was in limbo for a bit while I took care of the little ones.
Karen
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 5:16:42 PM
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tinydancer2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano23
Maybe the women who work outside the home in your life have a hard time keeping things together. Maybe they should consider other options, but fail to see how this represents all women in America or the world.
Women lives in the US and around the world is very diverse. Culture is a big thing.
For exemple my culture and up bringing was middle class typical in the early 60's, with a 18 years old Mama and 25 years old Dad in the military living in Naval Bases.
My Mom had much domestic help because cheap labor, (many ladies and mothers were employed by middle class and higher classes families). Than my mother at that time like most of her friends had a lady to cook and clean the home, a lady to wash and iron clothes (no wash and dryers around yet), nanny (1 or 2 depending number of children around), and if there were need because a house would be too big for the cook to clean, another lady would come to clean the house top to bottom and outside also.
Plus many families in Latin American the grandparents and uncles have their houses open when living near by to help as they can when need arises.
There were and are still help for couples, sure nowdays as the minimun wages and work laws getting tough domestic help is getting more costly and people may afford just 1 helper. 
With all this help my Mom went to University, had her small business close and open other business, went teaching piano, studying drama and doing plays, doing social work and was all over the place really. She was away while we were at school I guess because I really dont remember my Mom being away but very much present all the time. She was very young and pretty looking, really vibrant artistic Mom. Funny that I do not remember her ever in the kitchen prepering food but in her late 30's on...LOL..there was no need. But I guess some women will extra needs where others wont.
My Aunties having the same extra domestic help, all were different, some took degrees and classes, and others stay at home supervising the domestic helper, some very very picky lol..well..all depended the personality and enjoyment of the women making choices or the husband wishes also as how he would prefer his home to be run. My Dad was pro "express yourself and go for it" loving natural leader man. Like my own Grandpa, military man also..my Grandma was a business women on the 50's who employed lots of other women in a ladies fashion business.
I love my macho latin country and family upbringing!!!! 
I love and very very greatful to the males and females from my biological family, they were the ones I thank God for giving them all to me as the most strong and precious human exemples. I thank my family and the Lord.
_____________________________
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A Living Hope, and a Sure Salvation.This hope an anchor to the soul. Blessed be the Triuno Lord Almighty.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 6:27:51 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
When I was widowed as a young mother, I was told that I was sinning to work. Amazing. And now that all the children (present husband's and mine) are in their own homes, I am criticized by some that I work.
Awww, that's too bad.
I am criticized by some that I DON'T work. (Thank goodness my decision not to work was based on input from my wonderful DH and the Lord, and I take a vote from the rest of the world!)
The criticism never ends, does? And isn't it almost invariably from those whose business it isn't (thinking of Solo's MYOB)?
And with regard to Surpassing's quote:
I know this is not popular but I think families need to consider needs over wants. I am not talking about being widowed or single. Goodness, whoever said you should stop working under those conditions should have backed it up with a support check to make it possible. I know I was about to suggest that the minister who said that to me ought to support me, then, but I don't remember if I was just thinking it or if I said it. I probably didn't say it.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 6:33:47 PM
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car2ner
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I'll have to agree with tinydancer2. Sometimes it is hard to see past our culture. Not too far back in our own history women had to stay home with the children because there was way more hard work to do at home than we have now. If they owned a farm, that was an even bigger load. This work outside the home/work at home/ lady of leisure issue would have been a moot point a century ago.
In my own history I always had to work outside the home to make sure the bills were getting paid. Now I work outside the home because I want to help build our savings account. We are empty nesters so raising the kids is not an issue.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 6:43:44 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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Our society is so very insular. I wish it were that extended family pulled together with the children. How wonderful to have aunts, uncles, grandmas, papas, cousin, etc. in your life. The situation with my friend is a great example. Her son greatly benefits from having significant time with his mother, father, grandfather, and grandmother. It is generations pulling together to make it work, even flourish. Sadly, that is not the case for most of us in the US. People live across the county from grandparents. In some families, you may not even get to see each other at Christmas.
I don't want to sound like a patriarchal automaton. I very much believe in self expression and pursuing your dreams. I just don't want to see the needs of children pushed to they side because they are not fitting with your goals.
Karen
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 7:37:46 PM
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everythingat
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I can't believe this topic has made it through 96 pages. Especially when it is clear that there is no answer to this question. Every single family is different and require separate needs. And sometimes due to extenuating circumstances, the needs become more complicated. There is no universal rule on this issue.
We can't judge how a household is run unless we walk in their footsteps. To quote a song, "Try walking in my shoes...you'll stumble in my footsteps." Every person on the planet is different. This generalization of women is silly. Some women are strong enough to manage career and family without stress overwhelming them. Some have families that are so rough on them that it's practically like managing Barnum & Bailey's Circus. As far as women who are forced to work and manage the household...I think excessive stress is their fault. But only in the way that they need to tell their husbands and kids to lend a hand. If their husbands and kids refuse to help out, then it's time to clean their clocks and whip them into shape.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 7:49:57 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Well, this topic had been around a long, long time, and you must not have been reading it along through that time. People come here with frustrations at times, others come here at another time in order to straighten us all out, then at another time, people will come here to vent. We all come here to support, debate, discuss, and read at different times over several years.
You answer does not cover or even answer very much that has been written here, everything. No one answer ever will.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 8:09:40 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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It hasn't even begun to address the role of an egalitarian marriage in the life of a Christian. That was a hot topic for awhile.
Karen
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 8:15:35 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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There are no answers for that one to satisfy everyone. [:-D] But I believe that the day is coming when every one of us will be completely straightened out as to the correct answers for everything brought up here! :-D
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/20/2009 9:49:42 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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And sometimes that means we get a little burned. Hopefully, we can all keep a sense of humor about it and most importantly, ourselves.
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MARRIED TO A MILITARY PILOT 
PLEASE PRAY FOR OUR TROOPS! 
