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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2009 11:47:20 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6340
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From: Dothan, AL
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***Sigh***
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2009 12:27:00 PM
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drmark
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quote:
***Sigh*** Oh come on, Euty. Your last post on the previous page was one of the best I've read from you in a very long time. I asked for clarification and better understanding and all you can do is "sigh" at me?
Would anyone else like to help this feeble old Arminian better comprehend how we appropriate grace?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2009 2:43:12 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I don't see Scripture allowing for this distinction. Maybe you could get specific as to what these "imperfections, frailties, and weaknesses" actually are? Illness, accidents, birth defects, certain personalities and temperaments, any failure of body or mind which is less than the optimal condition in which Adam and Eve were created. Do you believe any of these characteristics will be present in heaven?
quote:
When we are told "do all to the glory of God" and we don't, isn't that sin? If I have done my best, is that not doing all to the glory of God? How do we get sick to the glory of God? How is a typograghical error to the glory of God? Is feeling hungry or tired while praying all to the glory of God? Is it a sin for a child to unintentionally spill her milk? How did that imperfection glorify God? Thanks for your response and I replied in this "sinless" thread.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2009 2:47:59 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5080
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
***Sigh*** Oh come on, Euty. Your last post on the previous page was one of the best I've read from you in a very long time. I asked for clarification and better understanding and all you can do is "sigh" at me?
Would anyone else like to help this feeble old Arminian better comprehend how we appropriate grace?
First things first, we won't be appropriating anything unless God first elected, predestined and wrote our names in the Lamb's Book of Life.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2009 8:57:48 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6340
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God
-Ephesians 2:8-9
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2009 9:30:06 AM
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dance_with_god
Posts: 30
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wow - nearly 16,000 comments and you guys STILL haven't gotten this settled?
thinking about election outside of covenant and community will always get one in trouble (it did Calvin).
thinking about salvation outside of God's preemptive strike will always get one in trouble (it did Arminius).
thinking about God in ways that restricts and limits God's love and "mercy which is over ALL his works" will always get one in trouble (it does Calvinists).
thinking about God is ways that emphasizes my own ability to move towards God will always get one in trouble (it does Arminians).
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2009 10:42:37 AM
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Reba
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Responding to a couple post here sorta about why bother to even have this discussion.
What discussion does between christians is open the Word make us search dig deeper into His Word. Even when we dont come to the same conslusions. We are in His Word. Sure like a siblings we can get into a fight now and then. Between real christians is see no harm. Because we are back in His Word. Learning and ever searching....
Even if Qt can be snarkyer than SIH 
_____________________________
Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2009 11:50:28 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 749
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reba
Responding to a couple post here sorta about why bother to even have this discussion.
What discussion does between Christians is open the Word make us search dig deeper into His Word. Even when we don't come to the same conclusions. We are in His Word. Sure like a siblings we can get into a fight now and then. Between real Christians is see no harm. Because we are back in His Word. Learning and ever searching....
Even if Qt can be snarkyer than SIH
I agree Reba. There are tons of ways in which we can waste our time. I guarantee that some who say this thread shouldn't exist do waste their time in more than one way. I have posted and followed this thread for a couple of years now and while we can get bogged down in some things at times that don't matter,I believe it has ultimately done me good. As you said it causes us to dig into the bible and that is always profitable.
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As long as we are something, God cannot be all.- Andrew Murray
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2009 2:34:00 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4627
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quote:
First things first, we won't be appropriating anything unless God first elected, predestined and wrote our names in the Lamb's Book of Life. Okay, that's singularly unhelpful... 
Anybody else willing to distinguish Euty's two positions on the C/A spectrum as described in post #15773? Because quite frankly, I find the second one completely compatible with an Arminian understanding of prevenient grace.
< Message edited by drmark -- 11/20/2009 2:43:11 PM >
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2009 6:36:03 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
thinking about election outside of covenant and community will always get one in trouble (it did Calvin).
That wasn't the only thing that got him in trouble.
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Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2009 8:57:46 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tarox
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
***Sigh***
I don't understand why this topic matters?
Maybe, if we understood exactly how salvation works, we'd understand God better.
But don't you suppose Jesus gave us enough already? We have so much to learn about God, on topics that won't have us at each other's throats.
There is no answer to the C/A question discernable in scripture. There is no perfect knowledge of it for us. There is only perfect acceptance that God has made salvation available to us. Rejoice in the saved, endeavor for the lost.
I think it's an example of Satan using scripture to divide the Church.
It says iron sharpens iron.... Personally I am not surprised the debate is heated...
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2009 9:07:13 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tarox
I don't understand why this topic matters?
Actually it's only a topic because the mods don't wish to police dozens of threads all over the forum...
quote:
Maybe, if we understood exactly how salvation works, we'd understand God better.
That's easy... God is salvaiton...
quote:
There is no answer to the C/A question discernable in scripture.
Accordind to whom?
quote:
There is no perfect knowledge of it for us. There is only perfect acceptance that God has made salvation available to us.
Beg to differ... God saves... He doesn't simply toss the rope and wait in hope the dead in sin pull themselves from the pit...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2009 2:28:21 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5080
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
First things first, we won't be appropriating anything unless God first elected, predestined and wrote our names in the Lamb's Book of Life. Okay, that's singularly unhelpful... Since it is how God saves, I doubt He would consider it "unhelpful".
quote:
Anybody else willing to distinguish Euty's two positions on the C/A spectrum as described in post #15773? Because quite frankly, I find the second one completely compatible with an Arminian understanding of prevenient grace.
Your idea of "prevenient" grace is that which God gives universally to all people, is it not? For starters, this idea would contradict Scripture which insists that men must hear the Gospel to be saved(Rom 10:14-17). Nor woud anyone be getting any "prevenient grace" if God did not elect them to salvation.
Btw, I suppose my response to you in the "sinless" thread was also "singularly unhelpful"?
< Message edited by kelman -- 11/21/2009 2:35:38 AM >
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2009 11:46:29 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4314
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Anybody else willing to distinguish Euty's two positions on the C/A spectrum as described in post #15773? Because quite frankly, I find the second one completely compatible with an Arminian understanding of prevenient grace.
Your idea of "prevenient" grace is that which God gives universally to all people, is it not? For starters, this idea would contradict Scripture which insists that men must hear the Gospel to be saved(Rom 10:14-17). Nor woud anyone be getting any "prevenient grace" if God did not elect them to salvation.
And what triggers effectual prevenient grace ?
It appears to lie dormant in many of the unsaved !
_____________________________
A wicked and deceitful heart cannot discern itself.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2009 11:52:07 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4314
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Your idea of "prevenient" grace is that which God gives universally to all people, is it not?
And we know this is not The God of The Bible !
Otherwise, we must be plagued with uncertainty and confusion.
A potential, possible, man-activated, type of salvation ?
What a twisted tyrannical version of God some erroneously portray !
God leads the horse to water, but won't let him drink.
That is what prevenient grace is...what good is it if unusable ?
_____________________________
A wicked and deceitful heart cannot discern itself.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2009 12:14:41 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 4314
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
This is more like something I believe. As you can see it is mainly a cut an dpaste out of both doctrines.
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe. But he has to yield to the Holy Spirit and is regenerated through Faith.
This is really quite good, maybe only clarification is needed.
IMHO, I would say you are more centrist than the total A's.
Here are the disconnects for the Calvinist in your blended soteriology.
1) Man is not spiritually helpless ? Exactly how much power does he possess ?
2) God appears conflicted. He will not interfere or accomplish ? What is the catalyst ?
3) What precisely is The Spirit's assistance and why is it needed ?
4) Why would a sinner yield to The Spirit ? Why can only some do it ?
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A wicked and deceitful heart cannot discern itself.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2009 6:27:24 PM
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WilliamtheConqueror
Posts: 153
Joined: 7/31/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Be careful. You will be in line with me. Waiting to jump on the bandwagon of which ever side wins. 
That sounds like several senators on the health care debate!
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