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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2009 1:24:53 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
I wonder if #5 is truly a "major facet" of reformed theology...most reformers I've spoken with will claim that it is impossible to live a holy life...therefore not a single reformer of this opinion can indeed have a holy life, therefore #5 seems to be a nice thought but moot in the end.
Given the examples set by those who speak of a living a holy life you will have to excuse our skepticism...
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Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2009 1:29:42 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Theocentric's post is almost a correct wording. It is as good a translation as there is. THe actual Greek says not any(or anyone) shall be snatching them from my hand..
Which would include oneself... Otherwise all men are able to remove whatever from God's hand...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/4/2009 12:50:18 AM
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TaranWanderer
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quote:
So it's in your objective point of view that this is a one way street? And could it have it been your points were the reason they were "dismmised?"
Dismiss away bro....IMHO this debate is pretty much settled......the thread is all yours.....
< Message edited by TaranWanderer -- 11/4/2009 12:57:47 AM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/4/2009 1:33:13 AM
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SamsonUSA
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quote:
Yes it does... Remove man's actions from your model of salvation and there is no salvation...
Remove man from anyones model and there is no one for God to save...
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If you can't be thankful for what you receive, be thankful for what you escape.
"You are never more free than when you fulfill the plan God has for your life." Warren Wiersbe
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/6/2009 12:51:01 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
Remove man from anyones model and there is no one for God to save...
You are missing the point... People are attemping to say the actions of man are needed, yet are not at the same time part of the equation...
I am not calling for man to be removed... Either man's actions are part of the equation(needed) or not... Can't be both...
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 11/6/2009 1:00:44 AM >
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/6/2009 12:52:41 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6398
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaranWanderer
quote:
So it's in your objective point of view that this is a one way street? And could it have it been your points were the reason they were "dismmised?"
Dismiss away bro....IMHO this debate is pretty much settled......the thread is all yours.....
Actually the debate was settled before you ever posted... Nothing new here in years truth be told...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/11/2009 1:51:00 PM
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Jersey79
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If anyone wouldn't mind taking a tangent for a minute, I have a quick question. What is a Calvinist view of doubts? If you doubt God or Christ does that mean you are not elect? In other words, say every once in a while you have doubts and are afraid that maybe there is no God, or what if the Bible isn't accurate and you'll never know that you were wrong when you die because there is nothingness? From a Calvinist perspective does that mean that you are not elect even though you love Christ and WANT it to be true and obey Him? Because personally, these doubts I get sometimes frighten me. I mean I love CHrist and I seek to obey Him, but these doubts come up every once in a while and I just wish they weren't there!
And it's weird because they don't limit themselves to just the above. Sometimes I doubt whether I am really saved or not, or that because I stopped walking with God at some point in my life that maybe I was never allowed to come back. These doubts are troubling to say the least. They interrupt my walk. It's almost like a battle.
Thomas Nagel in his book "The Last Word" talked about his atheism and said something to the affect of "It's not that I don't believe in God just because I don't think there is enough evidence. I don't believe because I don't want there to be a God. I don't want the universe to be like that." I am the complete opposite. I believe in God/Christ not just because I believe there is enough evidence, but because I WANT the universe to be like that. I want Christ. When I hear Christ's words my heart says "that is the Truth." And I want Him and seek to obey Him. But still these doubts get interjected into my mind. It's really tough.
Jersey
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/11/2009 11:47:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6398
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jersey79
If anyone wouldn't mind taking a tangent for a minute, I have a quick question. What is a Calvinist view of doubts? If you doubt God or Christ does that mean you are not elect? In other words, say every once in a while you have doubts and are afraid that maybe there is no God, or what if the Bible isn't accurate and you'll never know that you were wrong when you die because there is nothingness? From a Calvinist perspective does that mean that you are not elect even though you love Christ and WANT it to be true and obey Him? Because personally, these doubts I get sometimes frighten me. I mean I love CHrist and I seek to obey Him, but these doubts come up every once in a while and I just wish they weren't there!
Being we are fallen man we are going to have doubts here and there...
quote:
And it's weird because they don't limit themselves to just the above. Sometimes I doubt whether I am really saved or not, or that because I stopped walking with God at some point in my life that maybe I was never allowed to come back. These doubts are troubling to say the least. They interrupt my walk. It's almost like a battle.
You are of the flock of the perfect Shepard... Man at his worst isn't stronger than God at His least and He is greater than all, and nothing can pry open His grip of you...
quote:
Thomas Nagel in his book "The Last Word" talked about his atheism and said something to the affect of "It's not that I don't believe in God just because I don't think there is enough evidence. I don't believe because I don't want there to be a God. I don't want the universe to be like that." I am the complete opposite. I believe in God/Christ not just because I believe there is enough evidence, but because I WANT the universe to be like that. I want Christ. When I hear Christ's words my heart says "that is the Truth." And I want Him and seek to obey Him. But still these doubts get interjected into my mind. It's really tough.
Jersey
I suspect the doubts put you on yours knees in prayer to Christ... I personally belief the doubts come about in order to keep us humble and looking to God...
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 11/11/2009 11:54:08 PM >
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2009 3:52:30 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
There is a distinction between objective perfection - that which Christ Jesus has given us through His perfect life, His death, burial and resurrection - and how we practically walk out that perfection in our moment by moment lives. I agree completely, SH! I would call that "growing in grace" as God empowers us to be more like Christ every day. But growing in grace does NOT change the God-given truth that heart perfection is available right here and now. It appears most of you are so hung up on human physical frailties, weaknesses, imperfections and limitations which you improperly label sin that you fail to understand the spiritual nature of heart holiness as commanded and enabled by God. I believe fully what you posted in #15667 above: love and grace MUST be taken to their extremes by all Christians, but the faulty doctrines of total depravity and unconditional election interfere significantly with any true application of love and grace.
What is perfected on a truly born again individual is his soul whose spirit has been made alive to life in Christ. This is why 1John 3:9 says: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Is this what you mean by "heart perfection"? If so, there's some agreement here; however, the body is not "perfected" as is the spirit - so sin will be with us until it is.
quote:
quote:
Antinomianism was a heresy which postulated Christians did not have to lead a moral life. It still is a heresy, IMO... So what happens when these Christians elected sovereignly by God (I noticed you kinda skipped over that part) without a single condition on their behalf, in fact "drawn irresistibly by grace", do not lead a moral life? What happens then? Or does the same "irresistible grace" just make them automatically lead a moral life so as to avoid antinomianism?
Can't have one without the other. It's as the Lord said "a good tree will produce good fruit".
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2009 3:56:35 AM
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kelman
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Seems you really know how to clear a room, SIH.....lol
Too bad, now I'll never get an answer to my question....that's okay, I think I know the answer anyway!
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2009 4:01:29 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5080
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jersey79
If anyone wouldn't mind taking a tangent for a minute, I have a quick question. What is a Calvinist view of doubts? If you doubt God or Christ does that mean you are not elect? In other words, say every once in a while you have doubts and are afraid that maybe there is no God, or what if the Bible isn't accurate and you'll never know that you were wrong when you die because there is nothingness? From a Calvinist perspective does that mean that you are not elect even though you love Christ and WANT it to be true and obey Him? Because personally, these doubts I get sometimes frighten me. I mean I love CHrist and I seek to obey Him, but these doubts come up every once in a while and I just wish they weren't there!
And it's weird because they don't limit themselves to just the above. Sometimes I doubt whether I am really saved or not, or that because I stopped walking with God at some point in my life that maybe I was never allowed to come back. These doubts are troubling to say the least. They interrupt my walk. It's almost like a battle.
Thomas Nagel in his book "The Last Word" talked about his atheism and said something to the affect of "It's not that I don't believe in God just because I don't think there is enough evidence. I don't believe because I don't want there to be a God. I don't want the universe to be like that." I am the complete opposite. I believe in God/Christ not just because I believe there is enough evidence, but because I WANT the universe to be like that. I want Christ. When I hear Christ's words my heart says "that is the Truth." And I want Him and seek to obey Him. But still these doubts get interjected into my mind. It's really tough.
Jersey
As we should do with everything, we go to the Lord in prayer and His Word for confirmation.
Mark 9:24 .....Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/16/2009 10:56:10 AM
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drmark
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quote:
What is perfected on a truly born again individual is his soul whose spirit has been made alive to life in Christ. This is why 1John 3:9 says: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Is this what you mean by "heart perfection"? If so, there's some agreement here; however, the body is not "perfected" as is the spirit - so sin will be with us until it is. Yes, this is absolutely what is meant by "heart perfection" in the Wesleyan/Holiness tradition. But the body remains imperfect, frail, weak, etc because we must continue to live in a fallen world. However, I do not consider these imperfections, frailties, and weaknesses to be sin, properly so called, since we have no willful volition over them whatsoever. Can you appreciate the distinction, kelman?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 4:47:34 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5080
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
What is perfected on a truly born again individual is his soul whose spirit has been made alive to life in Christ. This is why 1John 3:9 says: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Is this what you mean by "heart perfection"? If so, there's some agreement here; however, the body is not "perfected" as is the spirit - so sin will be with us until it is. Yes, this is absolutely what is meant by "heart perfection" in the Wesleyan/Holiness tradition. Good, then we have agreement to the perfection of the spiritually reborn soul. I believe this is the reason that upon death such a soul can go directly to heaven - it has been made perfect.
quote:
But the body remains imperfect, frail, weak, etc because we must continue to live in a fallen world. However, I do not consider these imperfections, frailties, and weaknesses to be sin, properly so called, since we have no willful volition over them whatsoever. Can you appreciate the distinction, kelman? I don't see Scripture allowing for this distinction. Maybe you could get specific as to what these "imperfections, frailties, and weaknesses" actually are? When we are told "do all to the glory of God" and we don't, isn't that sin?
BTW, thanks for checking back in.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 5:31:24 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
But the body remains imperfect, frail, weak, etc because we must continue to live in a fallen world. However, I do not consider these imperfections, frailties, and weaknesses to be sin, properly so called, since we have no willful volition over them whatsoever. Can you appreciate the distinction, kelman?
Ummm Paging Dr. Mark? This response takes me by COMPLETE surprise, given your ardent claims that a Christian can be "sinless" in the "Can Christians Stop Sinning" thread.
Is it as peculiar to you as it is to me that you will declare "sinlessness" in one thread, but openly and blatantly admit what you just did in this quote when you wan tto defend a different position?
Which one is it, Doc? Sinlessness or sinfulness? You don't get to claim one in one thread and one in another! 
The imperfections, frailties, and weaknesses of our corrupted natural bodies aren't sin? Are you SERIOUS?
Come on, Doc. You are more logical than that.
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"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 6:20:13 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I don't see Scripture allowing for this distinction. Maybe you could get specific as to what these "imperfections, frailties, and weaknesses" actually are? Illness, accidents, birth defects, certain personalities and temperaments, any failure of body or mind which is less than the optimal condition in which Adam and Eve were created. Do you believe any of these characteristics will be present in heaven?
quote:
When we are told "do all to the glory of God" and we don't, isn't that sin? If I have done my best, is that not doing all to the glory of God? How do we get sick to the glory of God? How is a typograghical error to the glory of God? Is feeling hungry or tired while praying all to the glory of God? Is it a sin for a child to unintentionally spill her milk? How did that imperfection glorify God?
quote:
Ummm Paging Dr. Mark? This response takes me by COMPLETE surprise, given your ardent claims that a Christian can be "sinless" in the "Can Christians Stop Sinning" thread. Then I have done one pathetic job in >4000 posts and 3+ years... One more time (with feeling): sin, properly so-called, is the deliberate and intentional disobedience to the known Will of God by either commission or omission. It is not only possible, it is commanded by God, that we be free of sinning as Christians. Since it is physically impossible to be free of imperfections, frailties, and weaknesses this side of heaven, these are obviously NOT sin!
quote:
The imperfections, frailties, and weaknesses of our corrupted natural bodies aren't sin? Are you SERIOUS? Absolutely serious! See above. There can be no real sin where there is no real accountability. Was your last stammer a sin? Did the flu bug you fought last weak represent sin? Is your complete misunderstanding of my doctrinal position after repeated explanations a sin? Well, MX, I certainly don't think so and if you feel God thinks so, that's between you and Him!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 8:23:05 AM
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TheosCentric
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drmark,
What happens when one does sin, if they have been "perfected"?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 8:36:00 AM
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drmark
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quote:
What happens when one does sin, if they have been "perfected"? If anyone sins (NOT when), then we have Jesus Christ, the Righteous One, who speaks to the Father in our defense. But I suspect you already knew 1 John 2:1. So what's the real question, TC?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 10:03:44 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2691
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
What happens when one does sin, if they have been "perfected"? If anyone sins (NOT when), then we have Jesus Christ, the Righteous One, who speaks to the Father in our defense. But I suspect you already knew 1 John 2:1. So what's the real question, TC?
That was the real question, which you avoid. Are you saying that you will never sin again?
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God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 10:44:45 AM
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Reba
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1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Who is willing to call God a liar? Is it a matter of time? Like “ok i have not sinned for the last 2 seconds” So we can call God a liar if it is only every few seconds?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 11:26:09 AM
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drmark
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quote:
That was the real question, which you avoid. And I gave a real answer which you ignore and/or deny. Do you wish to engage in meaningful dialogue, TC, or just semantic gamesmanship?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 11:29:17 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2691
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
That was the real question, which you avoid. And I gave a real answer which you ignore and/or deny. Do you wish to engage in meaningful dialogue, TC, or just semantic gamesmanship?
I'm not the one playing semantic games and avoiding questions.
When was the last time you sinned?
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God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/18/2009 11:40:41 AM
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drmark
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quote:
When was the last time you sinned? Okay, so there's your real question. Honestly, I cannot remember the specific time or place since God has forgiven me, removed my sin as far as east is from west, and encouraged me to resume my ongoing fellowship with Him. Would my best estimate satisfy your curiosity, TC?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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