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[Poll]
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Jesus picture in the sanctuary
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| Get rid of the Jesus picture, even if people are offended. |
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| Move the Jesus picture to another area of the church. |
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| Wait until the older people pass away to move the picture. |
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| Keep the picture--it's not that big of a deal. |
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Total Votes : 42
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(last vote on : 9/5/2008 12:17:27 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/24/2008 6:36:27 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4903
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
Could I get a little background on the theology of not displaying religious art 'up front' in a place of worship? I'm not clear on how the presence of an "artist's rendering" (accurate or not) crosses the line from inspirational to idolatry. What's the general idea behind that school of thought?
I've talked to people who actually pray to pictures of Jesus, so I know there are people that it can be a stumbling block for. Obviously not everyone is going to so blatantly worship an image in that way, but I think it can happen to people even innocently. You're singing praises to the Lord, you look over at the picture of Jesus, and you think, "I love you, Jesus!" Except that it's not Jesus. It's a picture of someone else, actually, whoever posed for the picture. I think it's just generally not a good idea to put pictures like that up on the wall.
In Exodus when Moses went up on the mountain, the children of Israel made a golden calf and had a festival to the Lord. They really believed they were worshiping the Lord. I've heard that the Egyptians' greatest gods sat on cows, and that the Israelites really weren't intending on wosrhiping the cow at all, but the Lord, who was unseen, supposedly sitting on the cow. Yet, God wasn't happy with their actions.
So that's where I'm coming from. I think depictions of Jesus are okay, but I don't want people worshiping them. When you put them up front, in your line of vision while you are in the process of worshiping, it's just too easy to fall into that.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/24/2008 6:51:12 PM
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mvic
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Let's consider what is the real problem here.
Is the picture itself considered an idol? What if it was "The Last Supper" by Da Vinci? Or any other famous painting? Original or otherwise. Would that also be an idol?
What if it was a Cross with Jesus on it? Is that an idol?
Or is this the case of a new pastor wanting to stamp his authority? (Not meant to be disrespectful - just another consideration).
RCJames jokingly suggested that the new pastor after you would paint over the mural. How would you feel about that when a member of the church told you about it? Would you feel the new pastor is also stamping his authority?
Would your mural have a painting of Jesus? Say it portrayed Jesus as the Shepherd in a field. Would that be an idol?
What do you consider to be an idol exactly? The picture itself, or whether people revere it as opposed to Jesus Himself?
What exactly is the role of a pastor? To lead his flock to Jesus or to be concerned about the aesthetics of the building where they worship? A barn in Bethlehem would do just as well.
Please don't consider my post as criticism. I have never understood why some people consider pictures and statues as idols; although I respect their views and opinions on the matter.
In my view, some people "feel" more comfortable praying in front of a statue or a picture; or light candles to them. It doesn't meant they are worshiping idols, but it helps them "connect" in their mind with Jesus or the Saints. It helps them visualise. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
Sorry for the long post.
_____________________________
Christian words of comfort at http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
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MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/24/2008 6:56:38 PM
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mvic
Posts: 1537
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Just read your post No. 26.
I agree with what you're saying about the possibility that people are worshiping the picture rather than Jesus.
That could be the subject of your sermon; explaining, as you said in your post, the difference between the two. Then you can keep the picture where it is, with that sermon, (and your views) clearly stated to your congregation.
God bless.
_____________________________
Christian words of comfort at http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/24/2008 7:07:27 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4903
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From: Formerly Jesus Land
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That's a lot of questions, but I'll try and answer them all as best I can.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Let's consider what is the real problem here.
Is the picture itself considered an idol? What if it was "The Last Supper" by Da Vinci? Or any other famous painting? Original or otherwise. Would that also be an idol?
What if it was a Cross with Jesus on it? Is that an idol?
I don't believe pictures of Jesus are idols in and of themselves. They can become idols, but they aren't idols. I would not want either of those pictures you mentioned up in front in the sanctuary though, where they could become objects of worship.
quote:
Or is this the case of a new pastor wanting to stamp his authority? (Not meant to be disrespectful - just another consideration).
Absolutely not. My husband is not that type.
quote:
RCJames jokingly suggested that the new pastor after you would paint over the mural. How would you feel about that when a member of the church told you about it? Would you feel the new pastor is also stamping his authority?
It wouldn't bother me, and I wouldn't speculate on whether or not he was stamping his authority.
quote:
Would your mural have a painting of Jesus? Say it portrayed Jesus as the Shepherd in a field. Would that be an idol?
The mural is going to be in the foyer, not up in front, and I mentioned that I don't have a problem with pictures of Jesus, but the answer is that it's going to be a sunset hill with sillhouettes of the cross.
quote:
What do you consider to be an idol exactly? The picture itself, or whether people revere it as opposed to Jesus Himself?
Whether or not people are revering the picture.
quote:
What exactly is the role of a pastor? To lead his flock to Jesus or to be concerned about the aesthetics of the building where they worship? A barn in Bethlehem would do just as well.
To teach, to disciple, to bring the people to maturity. To protect them from false doctrine. It's not about aesthetics. It's a pretty picture.
quote:
Please don't consider my post as criticism. I have never understood why some people consider pictures and statues as idols; although I respect their views and opinions on the matter.
In my view, some people "feel" more comfortable praying in front of a statue or a picture; or light candles to them. It doesn't meant they are worshiping idols, but it helps them "connect" in their mind with Jesus or the Saints. It helps them visualise. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
Sorry for the long post.
I do see something wrong with it, because the second commandment says to not make an image of anything that is heaven or on earth and to not bow down to it or worship it. There were many priests in the Old Testament who allowed idols in the temple, because the people wanted them. They didn't want to cause conflict, and they let them remain. My husband and I don't want to follow their example.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/24/2008 7:11:03 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4903
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Just read your post No. 26.
I agree with what you're saying about the possibility that people are worshiping the picture rather than Jesus.
That could be the subject of your sermon; explaining, as you said in your post, the difference between the two. Then you can keep the picture where it is, with that sermon, (and your views) clearly stated to your congregation.
God bless.
Why would we keep the picture where it after preaching about it? I'm not understanding your point here.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/24/2008 7:20:06 PM
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pbaribeault
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I can see where you are coming from a little better now, but, when you say, quote:
it can happen to people even innocently. You're singing praises to the Lord, you look over at the picture of Jesus, and you think, "I love you, Jesus!" I would still think of that as an inspirational function of the picture, rather than an idolatrous action. The picture is not Jesus, and if you asked the person who expressed their love for their Saviour whether they thought Jesus actually was in that picture... most people would know the answer. If you asked them whether they were addressing their thoughts to the picture, they would look at you like you had two heads.
I don't think that it is possible to worship something accidentally. If you say, "I love you Jesus" you are talking to Jesus, no matter what picture, song, poem, sermon, mountain or sunset inspired you to pray.
(Not that there are not some people who invest the object or image with a sense of deity, just that they don't do it accidentally. People who have religious talismans know that they have them and do it on purpose.)
People who are actually and intentionally idolatrous need good solid teaching and correction... but I don't think an image needs to be removed to prevent accidental worship... especially if people find it inspirational.
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/24/2008 7:23:19 PM
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mvic
Posts: 1537
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I understand and respect your views.
The point I was making in my second post is that you could explain the point about the possibility of revering the picture itself, which is wrong, then leaving it there so as not to upset those folks that want it there.
This way you would have made your point (with which I agree entirely) and yet shown the congregation that you are sensitive enough to their feelings.
Remember, that picture may have been there for years. Many will believe that you are accusing them, and the previous pastor, of worshiping the picture rather than Jesus. Your action may not be understood for its good intentions; which I am sure you are genuine about. Your actions may well be interpreted as criticism of the previous regime.
By moving the picture, you are in effect saying the previous pastor was wrong.
Was he?
_____________________________
Christian words of comfort at http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/24/2008 10:00:22 PM
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p.progress
Posts: 150
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There is no real solution to your delimma, save forethought; the absence of carnality; and a willingness to receive the Word of God with a readily mind - one that yields to the persaution of sound reasoning (sound speech) from the oracles of God. Outside of these things, you cannot but 'offend' the few or the many.
The forethought comes at the very 'get go'. When a faithful and wise the man of God seeks or receives the acceptance of those who he has sought out or they him, to 'lead' and 'feed' them. His goal is what: Their conformity to his preferences and be changed into the image of him? Or aiding them along, seeking to persuade them, by Word and example to 'receive' "with meekness the engrafted Word, which" - alone - "is able to save" their "souls"? The goal of the poimen and episkopos is as I understand scripture, is to desire their perfection (maturity). Which requires that they whet the spiritual appetites of less mature saints, for that which alone satisfies the thirsty and hunger soul...eternal truths, eternity itself WITH GOD.
SO for you to BE AS SUCCESSFUL AS Christ himself would be in a housefold called by his name, you'll have to be wise enough to be frank right up front - at 'the get go'. Frank about what you can and will be longsuffering in (about); and what you're personal convictions, will not permit you to suffer at all (neither long or short).
If the image of a man with long hair (or otherwise) - and one that is widely assumed to resemble the physical appearance of a man we are nolonger to "know after the flesh" (Christ), I would agree with you that this is an image of which the command is still in force for us all to not think we are wise or if it comes down to it, free (at liberty) to violate.
If this is truly a conviction of yours then you cannot be patient with this - as a conviction is that which is sin to violate, do we wait for professing believers to wise up about the sin, or address it NOW? Paul has things to say about this. One place is 1Cor.5.
You need to distinguish between the mountians and the hills - but not tolerate what God does not. Not much said here I realsize, but out of time. Do right. Study this our to the full for yourselves; then do what you think you were called to: teach, feed, be an example to the believer.
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/24/2008 10:04:56 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16842
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Eh, I would not have it in the sanctuary.. but that's just me.
I am not too found of any pictures like that.
I'm with earthless...
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/25/2008 7:00:18 AM
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BibleL7
Posts: 493
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Talk to the board about what would be best way to handle removing it. Though I can see how many would believe that most can tell the difference between picture and Jesus it can be a stumbling block. I have seen people who talk about such pictures in such a way that is truly idolatry. You may not see them bowing to it or raising hands to it but when some one says you are taking Jesus out of church for taking down the picture I see that as a problem. I have also seem people treat pictures supposedly of Jesus as sacred things and that is nothing but idolatry. Fortunately none of the churches I have attended have had that problem as none of them had pics of Jesus in building at all. I dont know if I would have put up with it for even six months I would have had the unction to get rid of it ASAP.
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/25/2008 8:49:37 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4903
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quote:
I don't think that it is possible to worship something accidentally.
I think it's possible to be deceived.
quote:
Remember, that picture may have been there for years. Many will believe that you are accusing them, and the previous pastor, of worshiping the picture rather than Jesus. Your action may not be understood for its good intentions; which I am sure you are genuine about. Your actions may well be interpreted as criticism of the previous regime.
By moving the picture, you are in effect saying the previous pastor was wrong.
Was he?
I'm not really concerned about that, actually. Every pastor has certain convictions. We had a pastor who didn't believe in playing music while taking up the offering, because he believed it was an attempt to soothe people so they would give money without thinking about it.  In most cases I think most people just understand that everyone has their own beliefs and convictions about things like this.
quote:
If this is truly a conviction of yours then you cannot be patient with this - as a conviction is that which is sin to violate, do we wait for professing believers to wise up about the sin, or address it NOW? Paul has things to say about this. One place is 1Cor.5.
True. Good post. It is something that needs to be addressed.
quote:
Talk to the board about what would be best way to handle removing it. Though I can see how many would believe that most can tell the difference between picture and Jesus it can be a stumbling block. I have seen people who talk about such pictures in such a way that is truly idolatry. You may not see them bowing to it or raising hands to it but when some one says you are taking Jesus out of church for taking down the picture I see that as a problem. I have also seem people treat pictures supposedly of Jesus as sacred things and that is nothing but idolatry. Fortunately none of the churches I have attended have had that problem as none of them had pics of Jesus in building at all. I dont know if I would have put up with it for even six months I would have had the unction to get rid of it ASAP.
I totally agree with you. In fact, I was just thinking that it's the very attitude that the picture is sacred, that we can't possibly get rid of Jesus that makes me think it's an idol. If it wasn't an idol, then what's the problem? No one should be that attached to a picture.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/27/2008 12:56:32 AM
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lightshineon
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I like that picture, I have seen it often, I say pick your battles, and think about which hills are worth dying for. I do not see this as even important, in my opinion.
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Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/27/2008 7:41:11 AM
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Consecrated2God
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I actually like the picture, too. It's the one that was on the cover of the Bible Story book my mom used to read to us when we were little. We'd all sit on the Story Blanket in the living room and she'd read to us from it every day. So there's a lot of fond memories, and I can understand people having an attachment to it. It's not that I don't like the picture, it's that I have a conviction about having pictures in the line of worship like that.
There's also an angel on the piano that's got to go.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/27/2008 7:50:34 AM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I like that picture, I have seen it often, I say pick your battles, and think about which hills are worth dying for. I do not see this as even important, in my opinion.
If it's not important then there should be no problem removing the picture. If people fight that hard over a picture... then the picture isn't the issue. You could very well be right about that second commandment issue.
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/27/2008 7:53:44 AM
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CoeurdeLeon
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Sorry if someone already mentioned this but do you know why the picture is there? Did a present or past member buy it for the church or did the congregation get it with money bequeathed to the church by a now deceased member? Taking it down could be seen as a terrible insult in a case like that and cause hard feelings like you wouldn't believe.
At the church I used to attend, before the new building was built there was a horrible, I mean REALLY BAD, bigger-than-life-size painting of Jesus with some sheep front and center over the alter. It looked like a badly done paint by number and I am not exaggerating in the least. But it had to stay because a past member of the church had painted it and donated it and their whole family would have had kittens if it had been taken down.
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This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/27/2008 8:23:13 AM
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Sadey
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Well in defense of "OLD" people, its always their fault isn't it? Yikes I get tired of that.
You seem to be prepared for battle but please don't make the folks who love the picture the enemy.
You have been there 6 months and what do you really know about your flock? Do you have any idea the struggle daily life is for some of your senior citizens? Has your husband talked one on one to his older folks? It really is all about respect. Does he respect them and their views? Or does he just bunch them into oh well they're old and have nothing to offer this church?
When a church knows their pastor loves them and has their best interests at heart, they will listen and change.
Do you love your church and I don't mean the touchy feely T.V. evangelist "We love you", love. I mean really love them?
Also don't make this into world war 3 when it might just be a false alarm.
Just some thoughts.
You and I both know that if this doesn't go well for your husband it will be all the fault of the older people in the church. Unfortunately they won't think its about the picture, they'll think he doesn't care what they feel and think.
I just read your last post about you jumping in and doing things and he waits and prays. So are you pushing him to do this? I'm not fussing at you just wondering. Maybe you need to back off?
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/27/2008 8:51:58 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3583
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Well I know whatever you choose to do it will be with kindness and love. I will say, some may not understand the view, or your conviction. So, they really may not be bowing down to it, if they fuss over it being moved. The people may, just love the picture, ans some people like the light ( I think I know what type you are talking about). Some may take it wrong, thinking you are removing Jesus from the church, not in the sense, of an idol, but have a mis-understanding in their minds, that you are removing, the Lord Jesus from everything. The picture may or may not look like the glorified Lord, we do not know, and it does not matter, because when we close our eyes, he looks and is what we need him to look like, or identify with. The Angel? The had angels in the Temple, in the OT. Are the people making a big deal, about it, or is it not proper in its apperance? Pray hard, and I will pray for you also, making sure that you are right in this, as people really may not be bowing down to this picture. Like I said earlier, I am sure what is done will be done with gentleness and love.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/27/2008 9:51:22 AM
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mvic
Posts: 1537
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I fear that no matter how gently I say this, there's always the risk that you will mis-understand me. So here goes:
Having read once again all of your posts it seems to me that you have already made your mind up to remove the picture. All you really want from us is to agree with you.
_____________________________
Christian words of comfort at http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/27/2008 1:25:31 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4903
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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I'm responding to the last few posts out of order, I know. Bear with me, please. :)
quote:
Having read once again all of your posts it seems to me that you have already made your mind up to remove the picture. All you really want from us is to agree with you.
You are correct in that we have decided to remove the picture. You are incorrect that I just want agreement. I was hoping for perspective from other ministry leaders as to how to go about moving it, and what they would do if they were in our shoes.
quote:
The Angel? The had angels in the Temple, in the OT. Are the people making a big deal, about it, or is it not proper in its apperance?
There are several reasons to get rid of the angel. It's a lacy, pink-purple and gold crafty angel that sits on the top of the piano to match with the flowers on the walls. Besides the whole graven image thing, and not looking anything like a real angel would look anyway, she's very feminine. My husband wants to steer away from the feminine look in the sanctuary, and make it more appealing to men, which is another subject altogether.
quote:
1) Prepare sermon series on "Who is Jesus?"
2) At some point during the series, point at the picture and say, "We do know he looked nothing like that."
3) See what happens.
I'll show this idea to my husband. I'm going to get him in here soon (probably this afternoon) to read this thread. He may or not post--he rarely does--but he'll be certain to take your ideas into consideration.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/27/2008 2:12:36 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2744
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From: Raleigh, NC
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Have a series about idols in one's life. Even good things can become an idol such as a particular style of music/bible version/teacher. Describe that our culture has influenced us on how we view the descriptuion of Jesus. For example, the traditional "Last Supper" painting is inacurate because Jewish tradition would have them lying on a floor.
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RE: Jesus picture in the sanctuary - 7/27/2008 5:02:27 PM
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Roberta_
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From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
My husband took his first church at the end of February as senior pastor, and as of yet, we really haven't made any changes. Most of the changes we are planning on making we think aren't going to be very controversial, but one of them we want to make we think has the potential to be unpopular.
There's a picture of Jesus hanging on the wall of the sanctuary, by the piano up front. It even lights up. It's a very popular rendition of Jesus, although a very innacurate one. I doubt it really looks much like Jesus at all. Blue eyes, roman nose, white skin, etc. LINK
Although I am not necessarily opposed to pictures of Jesus, I do think that having one up in front of you in church while you were worshiping could be a violation of the second commandment. My husband agrees with me on this.
However, there are some old people in this church that are very attached to this picture. They complain if we forget to plug it in. If we were to move it, we would probably be accused of kicking Jesus out of church.
What would you do if you were in this situation?
Everytime I hear My Jesus by Todd Agnew, I think of that picture.
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