Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpretation
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Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpretation - 7/25/2007 12:04:33 AM
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DanBryan
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A Validation of Pre-Trib Rapture by Margaret ?
Or
The Misappropriation and Interpretation by John Darby?
1) Intro: Margaret McDonald was born in 1815 and lived in Port Glasgow, Scotland during the beginning years of the Dispensationalism movement under John Darby. McDonald was fifteen years old in 1830 when she claimed to be a "prophetess." She would often go into trances and record visions of the end of the world. Not much is known about Margaret McDonald the individual, but history indicates that she perhaps had a larger influence on the early development of Dispensationalism than first suspected, and the controversy over her influence on the movement continues.
Margaret was a member of Edward Irving's congregation and shared with him her visions of a secret rapture of the church. She also shared these same views with John Darby during a Darby visit of Port Glasgow. Irving proposed the new doctrine of a secret rapture of the church at a prophecy conference in Dublin Ireland in 1830 at Powerscourt Castle and soon after, Darby developed the full-fledged doctrine of Dispensationalism as it is known today. Among her prophecies, McDonald claimed that Robert Owen, the founder of New Harmony, Indiana was the Antichrist.
Critics of Dispensationalism have pointed out the fact that John Darby has based his own development of Dispensational theology on the prophetic visions of Margaret McDonald and her views of the pre-tribulation rapture.
MARGARET'S REVELATION
EDITED TOS 8
1) Intro Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_McDonald (not necessarily an accurate biography.
Following References with Commentary By Dan Bryan
a) Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
http://www.worldevangelicalalliance.com
DB---World Evangelical Alliance of 420 million evangelical Christians world wide do not discuss or embrace the ‘secret pre-trib rapture theology’, are these the blind folk?
http://www.efca.org/
DB---The Evangelical Free Church of America is an association of some 1,300 autonomous churches and currently extends to some 45 countries of the world, holding the pre-trib imminent return of Christ as a doctrine. Are these the blind folk?
http://ag.org/top
DB---Assemblies of God in over 12,100 churches in the U.S. and in 236,022 churches and outstations in 191 other nations, membership over 50 million world wide, are these folks blind?
http://www.sbc.net/
DB---How about these blind folk, with over 16 million members who worship in more than 42,000 churches in the United States. and more than 5,000 foreign missionaries in 153 nations of the world.
Could it be that because Margaret’s vision was incorrectly interpreted millions are therefore blinded in that day and still are today?
Is there a possibility that all are blind and are focused on the natural not the spiritual?
b) 2Ti 3:1-5 This know also, that in the last days … lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God… from such turn away.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
c) DB--Could this ‘Cry of Liberty’ be talking of the USA? With the ACLU (liberties) there will be no pronouncing of God ‘Just No God’. Liberty – the license to sin as opposed to Freedom and liberty in the Spirit to worship God? Or the espoused libertine views of Europe, being of that same spirit? 2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
d) Luk 21:25-28…distress of nations… hearts failing them for fear…..
e) Mat 24:29-31 shall appear the sign of the Son of man
f) DB -- Could it be that the paradox here is one of the following:
1) Margaret sees into the future where the saints are waiting ‘but they know not what it is’
2) Darby falsely interprets Margaret’s Revelation
3) The Church follows the Darby interpretation
4) Margaret sees that ‘…and that there was great darkness and error about it…..Darby’s pre-trib doctrine?
g) 1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Luk 17:20 ………The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
h) Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
i) Mat 25:1-15 Even the foolish virgins carried lamps which are used to hold the oil (the anointing). They knew about the oil, (for light). But they did not carry any oil in their vessels.
Oil is connected to light and or anointing over 30 times in the Old testament in conjunction to sacrifice and temple light. Oil is mixed with most all sacrifices in Levitical Law except with the sin offering, the extra oil is poured on the person bringing the sacrifice.
The temple was lit with oil lamps day and night without extinguishing.
For a king of Israel to enter his kingdom, he has to be anointed with oil by the priest.
j) Luk 17:20 ………The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
k) Luk 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].
l) Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day,
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.
m) 2Cr 3:7-18 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
DB---Unfortunately we do not see greater works being done today than what was done by Jesus,…..(YET)
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
2Cr 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Cr 3:3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
DB---Each move of God in generally was launched by the Holy Spirit with evidence of the same. (miracles and gifts of the spirit) (It is no mistake that the Methodist logo is the cross with cloven tongues of fire for example)
It is a sad state that each new revelation or move of God to his children is attacked by the preceding move or revelation of God.
Usually the prior movement become cold or tepid, ran it’s course and has settled into complacency and comfort.
Instead of embracing the new revelation or move of God they attack it creating a permanent gulf between peoples.
This attack is generally spearheaded by the leadership of these churches, then followed by the congregation.
I believe that God ‘Moves-On’ with new outpourings and revelations is because the preceding people or move had grown inflexible like old wine skins.
Sadly, many theologians in most denominations hold that the ‘Holy Ghost or Spirit’ are a thing of the past and that it was as an enabler for the launching of the ‘Early Church’ and not for today.
n) 1Cr 3:16,17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
1Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eph 2:19-22 ¶ Now therefore ye are …….. fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; ….. Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, .....[which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: ......
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
o) Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Gal 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
p) Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:39-43 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:34-37 I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? (Where shall they be taken?)
And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
q) 2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
Ecc 9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so [are] the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
r) 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
s) 1Pe 4:12,13 ¶ Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
t) Mal 3:3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Mat 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work.
u) Hbr 12:27,28 And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
v) Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
w) 2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
x) Joe 2:28,29 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
y) Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
z) Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
A) 1Cr 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
Act 9:17 …………that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God
B) 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
C) Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
D) Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
Pro 21:2 Every way of a man [is] right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
Pro 21:8 The way of man [is] froward and strange: but [as for] the pure, his work [is] right.
Gal 3:3,5 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
DB – It is of great consequence that today is reaching a peak in ‘Moral Relativism’. Moral Relativism is being flanked on the left by ‘Political Correctness’ which disallows any one to speak directly of another’s moral position in any disparaging way, and on the right by, a sanction against critical thinking or judgment which implies error or guilt. An example statement pushed in the 60’s was that ‘It was ok to “Do Your Own Thing” as long as it did not infringe on the rights of another’
E) Jhn 6:53-55 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
F) Hag 2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.
Joe 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first [month].
Hag 2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.
Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God.
< Message edited by Kath -- 7/25/2007 12:54:33 AM >
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 7/25/2007 3:04:31 PM
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mslv4gd
Posts: 12
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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Margaret McDonald is extremely inconsequential to thr progress and reality of Dispensationalsim.
I have study dispensationalism for several years. I embrace the majority of its doctrines only after going to bible college and hearing every reason not to embrace this view and heard their approach.
Then did I realize that they were unbiblical hypocrits who cared more about their traditions than God's Word.
I have never read anything by Macdonald, little by Darby and only some by Schoffield, Ryrie, Dake and progressive dispensationalist. When I had made this decision, it was based on the fact that God's Word was clear on a few subjects.
The 7 covenants exist
the tribulation will occur
Jesus will return imminently
The millenium will happen
The Jews will be restored
The New Covenant is distict from the Old Covenant.
The Beliefs of Dispensatiionalism have been around since the church started. We have record of the pre-trib rapture doctrine taught in 600 A.D. In the 2nd century the epistle of Barnabus taught the 7 dispensations
The early church universally taught pre-millenialism with a Jewish millenial reign prior to Augustine.
There are issues which I disagree with many dispensationalist.
Hyperdispensationalism(the idea that our dispensation began after the gospels, that the gospels do not apply to us)
gap-theory
easy-believism
division of the elect(though I reject a uniform salvation experience)
universal/invisible church
The system is based on taking God's Word literally.
This is what I do since I follow God directly and ignore pseudo-Catholic gospel weakening dioctators.
In Christ
Matt
P.S
For details on scripture check out my article on the rapture. "The case for the pretrib rapture" on www.biblesmack.blogspot.com
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 7/25/2007 3:14:31 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1886
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
The 7 covenants exist
the tribulation will occur
Jesus will return imminently
The millenium will happen
The Jews will be restored
The New Covenant is distict from the Old Covenant.
Do I have to believe in a pre tribulation rapture to believe in what you have posted?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 7/25/2007 4:27:40 PM
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Tashi
Posts: 5
Joined: 6/11/2007
Status: offline
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We have a problem here.
None of what premillennialism teaches is scriptural. No where does the Bible teach about a SECRET RAPTURE, then another rapture at the end, a SECOND CHANCE during the tribulation and a 1,000 yr. reign of Christ on earth. Jesus never taught these things nor did the Apostles.
Jesus is reigning now. We seem to forget that Jesus and the Father are one. God the Father came to earth in the person of Jesus Christ. The Father's other personality is Jesus and, of course, the Holy Spirit. They are the Holy Trinity, three in one. God the Father, who is Jesus, never stopped reigning. He doesn't have to come to earth in the 1,000 yr. millennium in order to be able to reign. God the Father, who is Jesus, has always reigned from the very beginning.
There is much symbolism in the book of Revelation. The 1,000 yrs. is symbolism for "forever" and "eternity." Actually you could say that the 1,000 represents the time from when Christ died up until the present time. Why? The Greek word for THOUSAND in Revelation 20 is "chilioi." In Strong's Concordance the meaning of "chiliioi" is "plural; of uncertain affinity." THIS MEANS NO ONE CAN GO AROUND TEACHING THAT THIS WORD, THOUSAND, IS LITERAL.
Yes, I know that many rabbis and some of the early church fathers taught about a millennial reign of the Messiah on earth. They seem to be the only ones that taught this because Jesus and the Apostles never did.
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 7/28/2007 3:14:46 PM
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stolar1962
Posts: 34
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Ah, yes, the old "guilt by association" ploy. surely you can come up with something better than this old chestnut? - Talk about blind people.
The impression left is this doctrine is something made up in the mind of a young teen in a series of visions.
quote:
Critics of Dispensationalism have pointed out the fact that John Darby has based his own development of Dispensational theology on the prophetic visions of Margaret McDonald and her views of the pre-tribulation rapture.
Of course, you are one of those critics, and therefore not interested in presenting a valid viewpoint on the subject.
What is not pointed out is the concept of the rapture existed before Margaret was born. Please note theologian John Gill (1697-1771) used the term "rapture" before it was coined by Darby. Note the following exerpts from his commentary on 1 Th 4:15-17
quote:
...concerning the coming of Christ, the first resurrection, or the resurrection of the saints, the change of the living saints, and the rapture both of the raised and living in the clouds to meet Christ in the air...
..."suddenly, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and with force and power; by the power of Christ, and by the ministry and means of the holy angels; and to which rapture will contribute..."
It it doubtfull that Gill was an avowed pre-tribber...however he used the term "rapture" long before Margaret.
Edward Morgan (1722-1795) saw a distinct rapture 3 1/2 years before the start of the millennium. He came to these conclusions writing a paper in seminary. "Two Acadimical Exercises on Sugjects Bearing the Following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties." He had been challenged by his professor to look at prophetic passages of scripture in an literal/historical method of interpretaion. Among his conclusions
- two resurrections separated by 1,000 years
- associates the first resurrection with 1 thess 4:17
- associates the meeting of Christ in the air with John 14:2
- sees believers disappearing into heaven during the time of the Tribulation
It is interesting to note in his prologue, he did not hold to the literal interpretation of prophetic scripture, feeling the figurative was more than adequate.
How about Brother Dolcino (died c 1307) He would be considered a mid-tribber today. However, He believed in the imminent arrival of the antichrist and that God would protect his people from persecution through the translation of the saints to paradise.
Want to go back further? How about the Codex Amiatinus (c 690-716) This was a Latin manuscript commissioned by Abbot Ceolfrid . The title of Psalm 22 (23 in the Vulgate) is "Psalm of David, the voice of the Church after being raptured." This title was not carried over from Jerome's Vulgate.
Of course there is the much debate Ephraem the Syrian, Ephraem of Nisibis or Pseudo-Ephraem. In a sermon attributed to him in the 4th century, then disputed as to an unknown author in the 6th titled "On the last times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World." he wrote: "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribuation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overhelms the world because of our sins." Whether writting in the 4th or the 6th century, the only thing left out of the sermon was the word "rapture."
It should also be noted the early church fathers were predominately premillennialists or chiliasts - from Barnabas, to Papias, to Justin Martyr, and Lacantius in the early 4th. Their writings indicated a strong believe in the imminent return of Christ, a central idea of pre-tribulational rapture.
I am not saying these people were pretrib. However some of the concepts which the pre-trib position holds, existed in the earliest days of the Church Such as:
- The early fathers placed a strong emphasis on imminency
- The early fathers understood a literal coming of Christ, and a literal 1000 year kingdom to follow
- The early fathers held to a type of imminent intratribulationism with occasional pretribulational inferences
- The early fathers held to a kind of "practical persecution" due to the times they were living in, and the persecution they experienced, rather than a specific fulfillment of a future tribulation.
Now, let's spend a few minutes on mis-direction and smoke and mirrors
Tashi wrote:
quote:
None of what premillennialism teaches is scriptural. No where does the Bible teach about a SECRET RAPTURE, then another rapture at the end, a SECOND CHANCE during the tribulation and a 1,000 yr. reign of Christ on earth. Jesus never taught these things nor did the Apostles
Acutally, it does. It teached it on the basis of using historical/grammatical methods of interpretation.
Your statement also shows a decided lack of knowledge about the doctrine under discussion and its origins. The Bible doesn't teach about two raptures, secret or otherwise.
What the Bible describes is the second coming of Christ with all of His saints in Rev 19. This coincides with what Jesus taught in Matt 24-25 regarding His second coming as well as the record of the Old Testament prophets. That it would follow a period of intense global upheaval, be globally visible by everyone present, and consists of a physical presence on Earth.
However, the passage in 1 Thess 4 does not give this impression. The impression is we will meet Christ in the air and be with Him. John 14 also supports this idea. He is describing a typically Jewish wedding. The Groom prepares a place for his bride, comes and gets her and returns to his home. He doesn't stay with the bride. The analogy can apply to the removal of the bride (ie, the Church,) These passages give the indication we will be removed and taken to the groom's (Christ's) dwelling place.
quote:
There is much symbolism in the book of Revelation. The 1,000 yrs. is symbolism for "forever" and "eternity." Actually you could say that the 1,000 represents the time from when Christ died up until the present time. Why? The Greek word for THOUSAND in Revelation 20 is "chilioi." In Strong's Concordance the meaning of "chiliioi" is "plural; of uncertain affinity." THIS MEANS NO ONE CAN GO AROUND TEACHING THAT THIS WORD, THOUSAND, IS LITERAL.
Actually, we can... There is a little thing in Bible study and interpretation called context. You are arguing that the word cannot be taken in a literal sense because it can also mean "of uncertain affinity." According to Strong's. It should be noted that Strong's, an excellent resource, did not go into much depth on how the word was used. Let's add Vine's comments on the word:
quote:
1. chilioi (χίλιοι, 5507), “a thousand,” occurs in 2 Pet. 3:8; Rev. 11:3; 12:6; 14:20; 20:2–7.¶ 2. chilias (χίλιοι, 5505), “one thousand,” is always used in the plural, chiliades, but translated in the sing. everywhere, except in the phrase “thousands of thousands,” Rev. 5:11.
Vine indicated that with one exception, the word is translated as 1,000.
Secondly, the term 1,000 can and should be understood as a period of time from the context of the passage:
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.
Rev 20:3 And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.
The context of the passage clearly indicates a definite, physical period of time in which Satan is bound for a 1,000 years, after which he will be released for a short time and that the saints reign with Christ 1,000 years.
Just because Revelation is jammed packed with symbolism and figurative language does not give you license to consider everything in the book as such and open to whatever interpretation you choose to give it.
quote:
Yes, I know that many rabbis and some of the early church fathers taught about a millennial reign of the Messiah on earth. They seem to be the only ones that taught this because Jesus and the Apostles never did
As already indicated, the majority of the early Church fathers were premellinnial, not some. We know than John, who penned Revelation appeared to be a chilliast as well. We know that Christ taught about His physical return to earth. We also know Many of the Old Testament writers also assumed that Messiah would reign physicaly from the throne of David.
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 10/2/2007 4:10:24 PM
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DanBryan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanBryan
A Validation of Pre-Trib Rapture by Margaret ?
Or
The Misappropriation and Interpretation by John Darby?
MARGARET'S REVELATION
EDITED TOS 8
Dear Forum,
I was not aware that Margaret's vision was TOS-8 off the original post.
Here is a website where you can read it completely.
http://www.seeking4truth.com/margaret_mcdonald.htm
Please note I do not necessarily agree with the other postings on that site, they will not be discussed.
In any case the scripture references I posted in the first post support Margaret's vision.
You can read her vision for your self.
Thanks,
dan
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 10/3/2007 2:49:55 AM
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Rapala
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The Bible was written around 200 A.D. which was 1610 years before Darby. This passage of scriptures proves the rapture was taught by Christ. You should look it up yourself.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
_____________________________
"Defeat must be admitted before it is reality." Vince Lombardi
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 10/3/2007 10:25:04 AM
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bob97
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Hi Rapala,
Your reading these verses out of context, read the supporting scripture, then read what the rest of the bible says about it, For example; 1Th 4:16 should be understood by reading Mat 24:29-31. You should note that the gathering occurs after the tribulation of those days.
This all occurs at the Second Coming.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 10/3/2007 11:29:43 AM
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Rapala
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Bob97,
We are talking about Margaret's vision. I am not going to get stuck in the debate of pre trib verse mid trib, it could be either. The key is the Rapture was written in the bible a thousand years before Margaret's vision.
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Mat 24:4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
Mat 24:5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,[fn1]’ and will deceive many.
Mat 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
Mat 24:7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
Mat 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
Mat 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
Mat 24:11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Mat 24:12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
Mat 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Mat 24:15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[fn2] spoken of through the prophet Daniel–let the reader understand–
Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Mat 24:17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.
Mat 24:18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.
Mat 24:19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
Mat 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now–and never to be equaled again.
Mat 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
Mat 24:23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.
Mat 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible.
Mat 24:25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
Mat 24:26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
Mat 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
Mat 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“ ‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[fn3]
Mat 24:30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Mat 24:32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
Mat 24:33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[fn4]is near, right at the door.
_____________________________
"Defeat must be admitted before it is reality." Vince Lombardi
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 10/3/2007 3:04:35 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1886
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From: Kansas
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Rapala,
That’s OK by me but I am curious, how can one discuss Margaret McDonald and at the same time have no discussion on her vision of the rapture? Isn’t that what she was about?
If you are not pushing her rapture vision then I apologize.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 10/3/2007 3:28:55 PM
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Rapala
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No problem Bob97,
I should have been more clear. I have run into alot of Athiests who use "Margaret's Vision" as an argument to confuse Christians who have not spent time studying Christs return.
< Message edited by Rapala -- 10/3/2007 3:42:21 PM >
_____________________________
"Defeat must be admitted before it is reality." Vince Lombardi
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 10/3/2007 8:01:40 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3557
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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I prefer the study of the "Resurrection" which is clearly
biblical and not pay too much attention to the thought
triggered by the word "rapture."
There is a consensus to the Resurrection,
but many unfounded views of rapture.
To say Jesus taught rapture is a stretch.
He did say, "I AM the Resurrection."
He did teach about the Resurrection of believers.
As Paul did after direct Revelation from Yeshua.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 10/3/2007 10:05:06 PM
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bettymackII
Posts: 1358
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carlkeigley= good thinking!
Rapala= I looked up on the bloggers search and a google search to find how many atheist are talking about Margaret Macdonald. I could only find a few, would you please give a list of at least 10 atheist who are talking about Margaret Macdonald.If I understood you correctly you stated on this thread that there are a lot of atheist talking about her. Thank you! Hope you are enjoying your stay with this fun messageboard!
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 10/3/2007 10:29:26 PM
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bettymackII
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DanBryan= I read with interest your comments about Margaret Macdonald. Am I correct in thinking that you agree with her vision? From what I have read she was a very godly woman. She is biblically correct when she talks about a future anti-Christ.If you google "Pretrib Rapture Diehard" where you will see how Darby was influence by Margaret Macdonald.And if you can get "The Rapture Plot" through library loan you can read in more detail about Darby's interpretation of MM's visionIF you want your own copy where you can read without having to read the book back to the library.You can order this book from Armageddon Books. You have brought up an interesting thread. May I and others learn a lot from this subject!
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 10/3/2007 10:35:04 PM
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bettymackII
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mslv4gd= I tried to get your blog on the "case for the pre-trib rapture" and I could not find it. Please tell me when you entered this title on your blog? What Bible verse do you know that CLEARLY teaches a pre-trib rapture?
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 10/3/2007 10:38:00 PM
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bettymackII
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bob97= I enjoyed reading your comments on this thread and on this very interesting messageboard. We appreciate your in-put and we do others on this exciting subject of Christ Second Coming which is a promise that we can count on because God is the Truth!
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 10/3/2007 10:49:20 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1886
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From: Kansas
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Thank you bettymackII for the very kind words. I always pray that it is not my words but the word of the Holy Spirit working through me. Of course we know that is not always the case because we all have our own biased and blind spots. Really hate to admit it!
By the way, I might say the same for you. So far you have always been a voice of reason and wisdom.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 10/4/2007 11:59:38 AM
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DanBryan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bettymackII
DanBryan= I read with interest your comments about Margaret Macdonald. Am I correct in thinking that you agree with her vision? From what I have read she was a very godly woman. She is biblically correct when she talks about a future anti-Christ.If you google "Pretrib Rapture Diehard" where you will see how Darby was influence by Margaret Macdonald.
Dear Betty,
This is the point of my post.
I do agree with Margaret's vision.
I DO NOT agree with JD's interpretation.
Here Margaret states the trial of the saints is the Anti-Christ.
That does not sound like Darby's take-away in meaning.
That being said once I noticed all the scriptural references in the vision/dream I decided to document them, and also comment points that came to mind.
Just a thought; It may be this preacher, not wanting to be over-shadowed by a girl in his congregation, felt compelled to interpretate the vision. She probably knew the Word better than he did.
Thanks,
dan
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 10/4/2007 12:42:57 PM
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DanBryan
Posts: 28
Joined: 7/21/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rapala
Bob97,
We are talking about Margaret's vision. I am not going to get stuck in the debate of pre trib verse mid trib, it could be either. The key is the Rapture was written in the bible a thousand years before Margaret's vision.
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Mat 24:4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
--
--
Mat 24:30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
--
--
Mat 24:33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[fn4]is near, right at the door.
Dear Rapala,
Thank you for your reference, but why did you choose to not finish out the scripture quote with?
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
What do you believe the sign of the Son of Man appearing in the sky is or was?
Margaret said in her vision the following:
Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people.
Mat 24:30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky
Thanks,
dan
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RE: Margaret McDonald’s vision or John Darby's Interpre... - 10/5/2007 4:24:28 PM
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Rapala
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Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. This verse applies to the nation of Isreal or the Jewish people, they will not disappear as a race.
Jesus compares the society living during the Rapture to the same type of immorality as during the times of Noah. Noah was told to build the ark because it was going to rain and we all know the story of Noahs ark. Jesus compared the Rapture to Noah's day because the Rapture will happen like the Flood did. We are being warned about the end of the age.
Jesus said he will come again the same why he left after the reserection, on the clouds. This isn't a story like the ten virgins who did not fill up their oil. Mat 24:4 Jesus answered: “W | | |
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