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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/25/2009 5:33:03 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest render reward to thy servants the prophets and the saints, and to them that fear thy name, little and great, and shouldest destroy them who have corrupted the earth. 19And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail.
1And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered....4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days....9And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him....12Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you that dwell therein. Woe to the earth, and to the sea, because the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.3And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman, who brought forth the man child:14And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.15And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman, water as it were a river; that he might cause her to be carried away by the river. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the river, which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Houston, you've got a problem here.
If Mary is the woman of Rev 12 you've got a giant contradiction of RC's doctrines. This woman is said to have "cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered" Your church says Mary had no pain and delivered so "unusually" that she remained "intact". Besides which, the pain of child birth is the direct result of sin...read Genesis.
So, which is it?....who is the real Mary?....the woman of Rev 12 or the "ever" virgin?...got to choose one because it can't be both.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/25/2009 5:35:26 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
Another question:
Since ya'll say that asking a request to my neighbor and asking one to Mary is the same...
Do I have to pray out-loud to Mary? If I pray silently, will she hear me? Can she read my thoughts?
Can I pray silently to my neighbor? Just sit in my bedroom, close my eyes, think a little, and they will know that they should pray for me?
Hi Ben,
The act of making the request to the Saints is different then the act of making the request to your neighbor, actually the act of requesting someone to pray for us is often different amongst our neighbors as well. At least for me anyway, for example I may tell my husband or my mom exactly what I need prayers for, and I may tell my friends to please just keep me in their prayers. The amount of information and the approach is different per request and per the relationship with the person I am asking prayers from.
What is the same is that we are praying for each other.
Prayers,
Mary
More problems.
Fortunately, your husband, mom and friends are still drawing breath. The "saints" you pray to, aren't. Prayer is an act of worship. When you pray to spiritual beings - that is worship.
Again, do you flip a switch to go between the latria and hyperdulia of the rosary?...."Our Father"....latria - "Hail Mary"...hyperdulia?
Nope, no such thing, both are worship.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/25/2009 5:41:59 AM
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kelman
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quote:
The word "Pray" is not the same in all circumstances (there have been many an example here regarding "pray" as it relates to worship or as it can be used as a from of asking "pray" the court for example.) Sorry, but no such example has been shown, it is a bogus claim. The old-English legal usage has no connection to spiritual praying which is the topic.
quote:
She takes our petitions and intercedes for us. Who says so?....certainly not God. Rather, God says that we pray to Him and Him alone. We see this as every single solitary example of prayer in the Bible is to Him....except, of course, those prayers said by the pagans. Not good company to be in.
quote:
Do you really believe the prayers of the faithful do/provide nothing for us, if you do you have a problem with prayer and not with the saints. The only problem we have are the made-up, man-made doctrines by men who are obsessed with Mary. However, we have no problem with God's doctrines that we pray only to Him and that we are to "pray one for another" - not to another. A passage which clearly refers only to those who are still drawing breath.
quote:
KJB,
I grasp your position just fine thank you, and I disagree with it. At least an honest admission! KJB's position is that he is content with God. Are you really admitting that you are not?
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/25/2009 5:43:54 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
It sounds like the basic misunderstadnings are in play. I think there really is no conflict between loving Mary and loving God. If we say it's okay to talk to friends about Jesus, but not okay to talk to other fellow citizens of the Household of God (Cf. Eph 2:19), I think we creating a boundary in the Church which isn't set up in Scripture. Well, it's not about what you think. It's about what God commands. Throughout the entirety of Scripture, God shows that we are to pray to Him alone. Only the pagans in Scripture engaged in prayer to anyone else.
quote:
I think I am devoted to Mary, but I know that I am not idolatrizing her or treating her as if she is apart from the Trinity. How do you know you're not worshipping her?...because a man tells you that you aren't?....latria, hyperdulia....Our Father....Hail Mary.....do you flip a switch?....no difference, both are worship.
quote:
If God wasn't glorified in Mary and the Saints, he would not have chosen her for the Incarnation, nor created any human to share and manifest his glory. The "glory" is all shown to Mary. Why we have RCs who say the Lord Jesus Christ couldn't even have been without Mary. As for the Trinity, it no longer exists for RC. Mary's de facto the "fourth" person of the Godhead.
quote:
Mary is mentioned much more than in Luke 1 and 2, though these are crucial. Just as there are many hidden prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament, likewise I think there are many hidden references to Mary in Scripture, both Old and New. No, Mary is never mentioned after the Book of Acts and there only in the first chapter. As for "hidden prophecies" about Mary most are simply rationalizations after the "development" of another Marian dogma. Mary's no Eve...no Ark...no woman of Rev 12...no whatever - other than the title God gave her.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/25/2009 8:23:19 AM
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Catholicandloveit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
KJB,
I grasp your position just fine thank you, and I disagree with it. At least an honest admission! KJB's position is that he is content with God. Are you really admitting that you are not?
kelman
I am very content with God, what I am disagreeing with is KJB's view on the effectiveness of prayer, why we pray and his view of a God who wills war.
But nice try,
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/25/2009 8:36:26 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Prayer is an act of worship. When you pray to spiritual beings - that is worship.
It can be, many things can be worship, Money for example, however not everone who uses money worships it.
quote:
Again, do you flip a switch to go between the latria and hyperdulia of the rosary?...."Our Father"....latria - "Hail Mary"...hyperdulia?
Nope, no such thing, both are worship.
The way you see it they are both worship, however your view is not the view of all Christians, many myself included are fully capable of seeing the difference between, Latria, dulia, and hyperdulia.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/25/2009 8:51:36 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1172
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Prayer is an act of worship. When you pray to spiritual beings - that is worship.
Nope, no such thing, both are worship.
I can point to stop signs all day long and claim they are green, because in my world, the color green is defined as the color of a stop sign. That doesn't mean everybody else calls stop signs green, nor are they likely to, simply based on my world-view, which is apparently out of step with the rest of the world.
Stop signs are red for most everybody, and will remain so until an authority comes and corrects them or changes them.
quote:
The "glory" is all shown to Mary.
No, it's not. By recognizing the obedience of Mary and attributing that obedience to the supply of God's grace, its power and influence, and the ability of mere humans to cooperate with it to accomplish the extraordinary work of God here on earth as His instruments, IS glorifying God, and praising and honoring Him with our recognition of His work in people like us.
By ignoring this aspect of God, you are limiting God, and deny Him the credit He deserves for influencing obedience to His will under a model of free will and choice for the humans He created, and the resulting fruits of that influence and obediance to and cooperation with Grace.
So just who is dishonoring God here?
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 9/25/2009 9:19:38 AM >
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The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2009 4:13:19 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5080
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
KJB,
I grasp your position just fine thank you, and I disagree with it. At least an honest admission! KJB's position is that he is content with God. Are you really admitting that you are not?
kelman
I am very content with God, what I am disagreeing with is KJB's view on the effectiveness of prayer, why we pray and his view of a God who wills war.
But nice try,
Mary
Sorry, but that's a "nice try" on your part. If you were truly satisfied with God, you'd obey His command to pray to Him alone - not to those He created.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2009 4:30:59 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5080
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Prayer is an act of worship. When you pray to spiritual beings - that is worship.
It can be, many things can be worship, Money for example, however not everone who uses money worships it. The fact remains, however, that spiritual prayer itself is an ACT of worship. It is worship when we pray to God. It is worship when we, God forbid, pray to His creatures. It is robbing God of His glory since He shows in His Word that He and He alone is worthy of prayer.
quote:
Again, do you flip a switch to go between the latria and hyperdulia of the rosary?...."Our Father"....latria - "Hail Mary"...hyperdulia?
Nope, no such thing, both are worship. Precisely, when you pray to Mary, you are worshipping in the same manner as when you pray to God. There is no difference.
quote:
The way you see it they are both worship, however your view is not the view of all Christians, many myself included are fully capable of seeing the difference between, Latria, dulia, and hyperdulia. Nope, it's not a matter of how it's "seen". It's a matter of what it actually is. It is the worship reserved only for God when you pray to her, kneel before her image, trust in her for salvation and attribute to her titles and honours which belong to God alone. Frankly, you can't get any more worshipful than that!
The Bible makes no distinction between latria and dulia. So, upon what basis will you explain to God why you bow down to and pray to created beings and their idols?
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2009 4:37:37 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5080
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quote:
quote:
Prayer is an act of worship. When you pray to spiritual beings - that is worship.
Nope, no such thing, both are worship.
I can point to stop signs all day long and claim they are green, because in my world, the color green is defined as the color of a stop sign. That doesn't mean everybody else calls stop signs green, nor are they likely to, simply based on my world-view, which is apparently out of step with the rest of the world. Yep, and you can continue to "point out" that spiritual prayer to a non-divine, non-breathing entity is not worship til you're blue in the face....won't change a thing.
It is what it is - worship. It's worship when you pray to a non-divine spiritual entity, kneel before its image, trust in one for salvation and attribute to one the titles and honours which belong to God alone.
quote:
quote:
The "glory" is all shown to Mary.
No, it's not. Of course, it is and at every turn imaginable! God everywhere shows He alone being invoked in prayer. But other don't agree with Him, they prefer to worship the creature rather than the Creator....that's glory to the creature.
quote:
By ignoring this aspect of God,... What "aspect" would that be precisely? The one where He everywhere shows prayer to Him alone?...would that be the "aspect" you mean?
quote:
....you are limiting God, and deny Him the credit He deserves for influencing obedience to His will under a model of free will and choice for the humans He created, and the resulting fruits of that influence and obediance to and cooperation with Grace. Huh?.....what gobbledegook! What odd thoughts....that obedient believers should be prayed to....especially in light of the fact that everywhere God shows invocation to Him alone - no one else EVER.
You have no scriptural foundation for such activities and more importantly (to some anyway) ECFs wrote against such practices.
quote:
So just who is dishonoring God here? As we've all just seen, that would be you.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2009 9:12:53 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
kelman
I am very content with God, what I am disagreeing with is KJB's view on the effectiveness of prayer, why we pray and his view of a God who wills war.
But nice try,
Mary
Sorry, but that's a "nice try" on your part. If you were truly satisfied with God, you'd obey His command to pray to Him alone - not to those He created.
I never understand on these threads why people resort to this. I am satisfied with God and all his commands. Kelman I pray you are as well.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2009 10:46:23 AM
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Catholicandloveit
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Again, do you flip a switch to go between the latria and hyperdulia of the rosary?...."Our Father"....latria - "Hail Mary"...hyperdulia?
Nope, no such thing, both are worship. Precisely, when you pray to Mary, you are worshipping in the same manner as when you pray to God. There is no difference.
At least you agree with yourself. 
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2009 11:44:35 AM
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cornergas
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I would like to know the Biblical authority (not false papal authority) for revering Mary and "the saints" praying to them. I would also like to know where the roman church and its papal leadership, get the Biblical authority to declare who are saints? If it were true it would be awesome authority for mortals to have all that Godly authority, as well as forgive sins, and change the Bible..
Know the truth and it will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy
God bless us all.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2009 2:30:14 PM
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Catholicandloveit
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Cornergas -
These two links might help you to have a bettor understanding of the Catholic view of the saints, if you want more information after those to links just search Catholic.com you'll find lots of reading materials.
God Bless,
Mary
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2009 2:39:31 PM
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cornergas
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No please, I want links to some true teachings..not roman papacy attempts to rewrite history and God's Holy word..Oh you might want to google "The vatican's holocaust", and "The vatican and islam" this will open your eyes to the true history of the papacy.
Know the truth and it will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy
God bless us all.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2009 3:01:53 PM
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Catholicandloveit
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Cornergas,
I'm sorry I thought you were genuinely looking for scriptural support to the Catholic view of the saints, so I suggests those links. I see now I was mistaken on your intentions.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2009 3:33:13 PM
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cornergas
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Yes you were mistaken, I want to read Christian material, not some attempted justification for pagan worship, and breaches of the first four commandments as spouted by the roman church!
Know the truth and it will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy
God bless us all
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2009 4:04:03 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4168
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cornergas
No please, I want links to some true teachings..not roman papacy attempts to rewrite history and God's Holy word.
There isn't any.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2009 4:34:38 PM
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cornergas
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Stellaluna..there are lots of true Christian teachings (the Bible for one), without trying to peddle the false doctrine that the papacy in rome has spouted ever since it's inception in the fourth century. Praying to the "saints" and Mary..lots of luck with that one!
Know the truth and it will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy
God bless us all.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2009 10:43:23 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 593
Joined: 9/10/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cornergas
Stellaluna..there are lots of true Christian teachings (the Bible for one), without trying to peddle the false doctrine that the papacy in rome has spouted ever since it's inception in the fourth century. Praying to the "saints" and Mary..lots of luck with that one!
Know the truth and it will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy
God bless us all.
You say again that the Papacy began in the fourth century. Do you have any evidence? Actually there is no record of one protestant man--one believing as you do--between 100 and 1100 A.D. Perhaps you were innocently decieved by others who also were decieved. But there are actual documents from the 100s:
"[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished." (Martyrdom of Polycarp,16:2(A.D. 155),in ANF,I:42)
For more: http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/catholic.htm
Actually the Bible Canon is, like prayer to Mary and the Saints, an oral Tradition of the Catholic Church. Cf. 2 Thes 2:15, 3:6. Or do you have Scriptural source of the Biblical Canon?
Many people say it is wrong to show reverence for anyone but God alone. Perhaps such people don't know the Scriptures quite as well as they think. The Bible says that we can even show reverence for the ground, if God is there. Cf. Acts 7:33.
But if we can show reverence for the ground where God is, then how much more for those who partake of the divine nature (2 Pt 1:4) and do so perfectly? (cf. Heb 12:23). Thus it is not the saints that we worship, but the One Who is fully in them.
Cf. Eph 3:19, Gen 28:12, 17-18, 1 Tim 3:15, Luke 1:43, 48.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/2/2009 1:55:42 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/17/2009 2:09:30 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 593
Joined: 9/10/2009
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quote:
No please, I want links to some true teachings..not roman papacy attempts to rewrite history and God's Holy word. There isn't any.
I don't have any evidence for a protestant as opposed to a Catholic historical Church, nor evidence that Sola Scriptura is actually a N.T. teaching.
"The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years....
Can They Hear Us?
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding."
FOr this rest of this article["Praying to the Saints". Catholic Answers. San Diego 2004.]:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.2 Thes 2:15
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/17/2009 5:26:24 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/28/2009 5:10:10 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 593
Joined: 9/10/2009
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Kelman wrote:
quote:
Sorry, but that's a "nice try" on your part. If you were truly satisfied with God, you'd obey His command to pray to Him alone - not to those He created.
Is it possible you are mistaken? One thing I can't get over: we ask people to pray for us all the time. I've never heard of protestants who think it is idolatry to ask their minister or friends to pray for them. The Bible says that we are fellow citizents with the saints. Why can't we ask these citizens, also, to pray for us: especially since they are now "perfect". Cf. Heb 12:23.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/28/2009 5:17:45 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/31/2009 2:03:01 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5080
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
Kelman wrote:
quote:
Sorry, but that's a "nice try" on your part. If you were truly satisfied with God, you'd obey His command to pray to Him alone - not to those He created.
Is it possible you are mistaken? It's possible for me to be mistaken; but God is never mistaken.
The Lord Jesus Christ is our perfect example and He commands prayer to be addressed to the Father - never to created beings.
There is not one offer of prayer to anyone but God in Scripture....except, of course, the prayers offered by the pagans.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/31/2009 2:42:28 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2551
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
Kelman wrote:
quote:
Sorry, but that's a "nice try" on your part. If you were truly satisfied with God, you'd obey His command to pray to Him alone - not to those He created.
Is it possible you are mistaken? It's possible for me to be mistaken; but God is never mistaken.
The Lord Jesus Christ is our perfect example and He commands prayer to be addressed to the Father - never to created beings.
There is not one offer of prayer to anyone but God in Scripture....except, of course, the prayers offered by the pagans.
Appealing to Scripture in a conversation with the Roman Christians here is just beating your head against a brick wall, kelman. By their words they acknowledge that Scripture is God's Word, but in reality their final authority is their centuries of ill informed and contradictory man-made tradition that doesn't have to measure up to any standard except that some of it is "old".
I applaud your steadfast appeals to Scripture, but Scripture is second (maybe even third or fourth) banana in Rome.
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"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/31/2009 8:53:53 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 593
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: online
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MANIMAL WROTE:
quote:
I applaud your steadfast appeals to Scripture, but Scripture is second (maybe even third or fourth) banana in Rome.
If that's true, then why are you a Christian? Historically, there is no distinction between the "Roman Catholic" belief system and Christianity.
(Personally, I think the Catholic Church is perfectly true to the Scriptures, and doesn't invent ideas like, "The Holy Spirit isn't God", as the Nazarenes such as Kelman do.)
The Church says we should be like little children. Little children wouldn't make an arbitrary rule saying that you can ask for the prayers of people on earth, but not in heaven.
KELMAN WROTE:
quote:
There is not one offer of prayer to anyone but God in Scripture....except, of course, the prayers offered by the pagans.
I'll check on that one. Historically speaking, Kelman, where did the Scriptures come from.
Also, have you found a verse for Sola Scriptura? If not, then your argument against prayer to the Saints fails, right?
Kelman, your own documents you held up and your belief system say that we are deified through Jesus Christ.
As Scripture say "the Church, the fulness of the One who fills all things" (Eph 1:22-23, Acts 9:4-5).
Do you believe this Scripture or not? Do you worship God, or not?
Then how can we not venerate the Communion of Saints?
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 11/1/2009 11:50:07 AM >
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