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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/26/2008 10:19:12 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
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kelman,
quote:
There is not now nor has there ever been the slightest evidence that "the Church" (which, of course, to RC always means RC) has ever been inspired. God says only of the written Scripture that it is inspired.
So the defining of Scripture, the instruction regarding Baptism [which Scripture refers to as "elementary teaching" though non-Catholic Christians continue to argue about it], the definition of the Christian Church itself according to the Gospels, teaching on the sanctity of life from conception to natural death [despite the non-Catholic acceptance of ABC after centuries of unity on that issue], does not constitute "the slightest evidence?" The Church established by Christ has stood firm on all of these issues and has continued to be relevent to society as the times have changed. Obviously, your interpretation does not line up with the earliest Christians in communion with the Church. If you are comfortable with that, that is your prerogative. However, it may be helpful to others to point out the fact that nowhere in Scripture does it refer to "itself" [as if Scripture is the Person, the Word Himself, Jesus Christ] that "only" written Scripture is inspired. You are reading into Scripture your own preconceived notion.
quote:
Nope, that's RC's "echo" not Paul's. Here he ALSO speaks of all those who are in Christ(vs 12) all true believers not a visible congregation. This has nothing to do with any particular denomination such as RC.
The whole "RC" thing is a concession for convenience, not a title of a "denomination." Neither Christ, Scripture, nor the Apostles knew anything of denominations. That is a particular phenomenon created at the "reformation."
Our Lord did speak of the "Kingdom of Heaven" on earth being filled with "weeds among the wheat" in Matt. 13:24-30. [Hopefully, you won't dismiss the parables of Christ Himself as invaluable as a teaching tool like I've heard from other non-Catholic Christians in the past, here and elsewhere. IMHO, that's exactly why He used them....as TEACHING TOOLS.] If our Lord considered the "kingdom of heaven" to exist of only "all believers," "all made to drink into one Spirit," [your quote], where the heck did the "weeds" come from in our Lord's teaching in Matt. 13? According to your interpretation of St. Paul, maybe [if he had been around during our Lord's ministry], he might have "rebuked" God the Son Himself for totally misrepresenting God's intent? Methinks you are misinterpreting something here, friend.
quote:
And when he speaks of the body in physical terms - the local congregations, he certainly doesn't speak of some centralized authoritative "body". He teaches about those in the churches with individual gifts and how we as individuals make-up and depend upon the whole.
Prove it. St. Paul's description of the Body of Christ conforms perfectly with Catholic sprituality and our ancient understanding of the Communion of Saints; i.e., Church Militant, Church Suffering, and Church Triumphant. Doesn't get any more "united in Christ" than that.
quote:
When one actually reads the context AND the previous chapters, it can be readily seen that he is not speaking of some "unity of Catholic Christian thought" as some would like to think.
And he certainly knows nothing of the "denominationalism" that has plagued Christianity since the 16th century.
Pax Christi,
gatolover
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/26/2008 11:01:32 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1428
Joined: 7/31/2007
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Quite the contrary, "denominationalism" "plagued" the early Christian church as well. There were the Judaizers. There were the guys who decided to sin more because that way God could provide more grace. There were the gentile believers. Some thought eating food sacrificed to idols was okay, others didn't. That's just to name a few of the more obvious ones from Paul's letters, and Acts.
Some of them were corrected. Some were corrected only inasmuch as they were told to leave others who didn't practice exactly as they did alone, as in the case of the Judaizers. The Judaizers were not told to stop practicing as they practiced... instead, they were told to leave their Gentile brethren alone on the "Jewish parts" and accept them in love as fellow heirs in Christ.
It's interesting that you bring up baptism. There are arguments, sure, but they tend toward the "when" and "how", not "whether". Interestingly, the Catholics have chosen both a "how" (sprinkling) and "when" (infant) that occurs nowhere in the Scripture. But, none of this is really the topic. We're supposed to be talking about praying to the saints and Mary, which is yet another practice that occurs nowhere in the Scripture. And it is this practice that makes communion difficult between Catholics, who believe it's a valid practice, and Protestants, who believe it ranges anywhere between ineffectiveness to outright heresy. Even inside the Catholic church itself, there have always been different rites. There have been schisms. There have been massive fights. There still are. Groups like Opus Dei, Cursillo, Legion of Mary, Regnum Christi, Neocatechumenal Way, Focolare, Communion of Liberation, Society of Saint Pius, International Fatima Rosary Crusade, etc. There is no practical difference between the rites and sects found in the RCC, and the denominations found in the Protestant churches. Both are a matter of personal preference in practice and non-critical doctrine.
And, as usual, in looking at the Catholic severe distaste for Protestantism and their refusal to include Protestants as part of the Church that belongs to Christ, I must again point out that the only reason Protestantism exists is the fact that the RCC became unbearably corrupt, even to members of its own clergy.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/27/2008 12:31:33 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11666
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Here is the OP of this thread:
quote:
This topic is neverending. So as to help keep things from constantly being repeated or asked we've decided to create a perpetual discussion on the topic.
Do Catholics pray to the saints or Mary?
Discuss the differences in this doctrine and come to a better understanding of those who believe differently.
If you cannot or will not confine your discussion to this subject, please find a different thread to post in.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/28/2008 3:33:01 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
The Church established by Christ has stood firm on all of these issues and has continued to be relevent to society as the times have changed. Obviously, your interpretation does not line up with the earliest Christians in communion with the Church. First, the church established by Christ is not RC.
What we know for a certainty is that many RC doctrines, in this case, "praying to saints and Mary" are alien to apostolic Christianity.
Though, of course, it remains your prerogative to follow that which neither Christ nor the Apostles taught.
quote:
You are reading into Scripture your own preconceived notion. Actually, you've only proved you do not comprehend what you read.
quote:
IMHO, that's exactly why He used them....as TEACHING TOOLS.] Yes, Christ is the ultimate teacher and example...why then do you refuse to follow His teaching - His commands? He taught us how to pray..."Our Father who art in heaven...." There is not one utterance of prayer to anyone but the Creator. Yet, RC turns a blind eye to the clear teaching found in the Holy Word of God. And of the written Word alone does God declare to be inspired.
Jesus Christ, His Apostles and every prophet and holy man of Scripture knew how to pray. Why doesn't RC know? Why does RC see itself as being superior to the teaching of Jesus, His Apostles and all of Scripture?
quote:
According to your interpretation of St. Paul, maybe [if he had been around during our Lord's ministry], he might have "rebuked" God the Son Himself for totally misrepresenting God's intent? Had your denomination been around, it certainly would have rebuked Christ Himself for His teaching, His examples and His commands of to whom alone we must pray.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/28/2008 10:24:13 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
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kelman,
quote:
First, the church established by Christ is not RC.
FYI, I understand the reason you believe as you do regarding your definition of "church," but please don't expect me to accept your definition as revealed, God-breathed revelation. Your continual references to "RC" indicate you have no idea what "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" means in the Creed professed by Catholic Christians around the world daily. No Catholic Christian here has referred to themselves as an "RC." We are all united in one faith, one baptism, one Lord, one Creed. I would point you to my previous post for an explanation regarding why "RC" is a forced concession here.
quote:
What we know for a certainty is that many RC doctrines, in this case, "praying to saints and Mary" are alien to apostolic Christianity.
You will find no Catholic Christian worth his salt who will not affirm the fact that Christ's revelation continues to grow the Church. It continually puzzles me that non-Catholic Christians reject the development of doctrine in Catholicism but continually come up with innovations and reasons for division all on their own. I think we're off-topic again....sorry, PS103. I beg your patience.
quote:
Actually, you've only proved you do not comprehend what you read.
How incredibly charitable of you, kelman. Your open mind toward others who voice their disagreement with your own interpretation are, therefore, IYNSHO, not able to "comprehend what [we] read?" Nice.
I would point out that your condecension is unwelcome, snarky, distasteful, and unworthy of a child of God. Please, I'm begging you...If you are so intent on staying the course and participating here, please....please...please....stop the condescension and dialogue with Catholic Christian participants according to the intent of the Administrator when he developed the "Catholic Discussion Index." It would also help to further the "discussions" if you chose to show a little respect to the Catholic Christians who are trying to dialogue and abide by the Administrator's rules. Just a thought.
quote:
Yes, Christ is the ultimate teacher and example...why then do you refuse to follow His teaching - His commands?
Again with the judgment? How do you know how I pray? How do you know that I "refuse to follow His teaching - His commands?" This is totally inappropriate and inconducive to "discussion," IMHO. In fact, your comments could be construed as well-nigh judgmental and hurtful if I didn't already have alligator skin and knew what to expect from you. [Don't worry...I don't believe in squelching dialogue by reporting folks here for TOS violations...and I also don't believe empty threats of doing so hold any favor in my Lord's eyes.]
quote:
He taught us how to pray..."Our Father who art in heaven...." There is not one utterance of prayer to anyone but the Creator. Yet, RC turns a blind eye to the clear teaching found in the Holy Word of God. And of the written Word alone does God declare to be inspired.
I disagree with your comments on many fronts, most fervently on the opinion that "the written Word alone does God declare to be inspired." Apparently, you tend to like to add the word "alone" to Scripture, just like Luther. Certainly, you know the warning you folks like to throw around about "adding" to Scripture, right? 
I've had enough tonight. I'm sure we'll cross paths soon.
Pax Christi,
gatolover
P.S. PS103...I promise to do my best to bring it all back around to topic as soon as I am able. Thank you for your patience.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/29/2008 6:46:31 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
First, the church established by Christ is not RC. FYI, I understand the reason you believe as you do regarding your definition of "church," but please don't expect me to accept your definition as revealed, God-breathed revelation. Have I indicated that I expect you to accept anything?....nope. I simply clarified what the church is not.
quote:
Your continual references to "RC" indicate you have no idea what "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" means in the Creed professed by Catholic Christians around the world daily. The word "catholic" in the Creed certainly doesn't mean your denomination, that's for sure. So, apparently it is you who "have no idea".
quote:
quote:
What we know for a certainty is that many RC doctrines, in this case, "praying to saints and Mary" are alien to apostolic Christianity.
You will find no Catholic Christian worth his salt who will not affirm the fact that Christ's revelation continues to grow the Church. Regardless of anyone's saltiness, if they believe such a thing it places them in violation of the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
quote:
It continually puzzles me that non-Catholic Christians reject the development of doctrine in Catholicism but continually come up with innovations and reasons for division all on their own. I think we're off-topic again....sorry, PS103. I beg your patience.
What doesn't continually puzzle me is your ploy to get in your "off topic" remarks knowing that responding to your errors would bring down the disapproval of the moderator. An oft repeated tactic of RC, btw.
quote:
quote:
Actually, you've only proved you do not comprehend what you read.
How incredibly charitable of you, kelman. Your open mind toward others who voice their disagreement with your own interpretation are, therefore, IYNSHO, not able to "comprehend what [we] read?" Nice. You voiced your disagreement to what you thought I said - not to what I actually did say. Hence, you did not comprehend; and, apparently still don't.
quote:
I would point out that your condecension is unwelcome, snarky, distasteful, and unworthy of a child of God. It is with the utmost hope that as you typed your list of charges, you did so looking in a mirror. For there is no one on this thread more worthy of that list than youself.
quote:
Please, I'm begging you...If you are so intent on staying the course and participating here, please....please...please....stop the condescension and dialogue with Catholic Christian participants according to the intent of the Administrator when he developed the "Catholic Discussion Index." Are you for real? The above is simply laughable. To point out that you did not comprehend something I said is not condescension. It's really quite amazing you would think so.
Contrary to your hopeful assertion, insofar as I know I have not violated the "intent of the Adminstrator" on this or any other thread....so, your "begging" comment will go unheeded since it is irrelevant, serves no useful purpose and is, in fact, untrue.
quote:
It would also help to further the "discussions" if you chose to show a little respect to the Catholic Christians who are trying to dialogue and abide by the Administrator's rules. Just a thought. Your "thoughts" here also serve no useful purpose. If you think I am violating TOS, report my post.
quote:
quote:
Yes, Christ is the ultimate teacher and example...why then do you refuse to follow His teaching - His commands?
Again with the judgment? How do you know how I pray? How do you know that I "refuse to follow His teaching - His commands?" You, in the collective sense - as in RC. And, of course, we are called upon to make judgments concerning the doctrines taught in Scripture.
quote:
This is totally inappropriate and inconducive to "discussion," IMHO. In fact, your comments could be construed as well-nigh judgmental and hurtful if I didn't already have alligator skin and knew what to expect from you. Just as I fully know what to expect from you - obfuscation. Does RC teach its members to pray to Mary and the saints? Is RC not inundated with prayers to Mary? If so, then every word I said is, in fact, appropriate.
quote:
[Don't worry...I don't believe in squelching dialogue by reporting folks here for TOS violations...and I also don't believe empty threats of doing so hold any favor in my Lord's eyes.] LOL...what dialogue? Your "dialogue" consists of nothing but warnings, threats and muddied waters.
quote:
quote:
He taught us how to pray..."Our Father who art in heaven...." There is not one utterance of prayer to anyone but the Creator. Yet, RC turns a blind eye to the clear teaching found in the Holy Word of God. And of the written Word alone does God declare to be inspired.
I disagree with your comments on many fronts, most fervently on the opinion that "the written Word alone does God declare to be inspired." Presumably you have a reason for your disagreement? So, tell us, where does God declare anything else to be inspired?
quote:
Apparently, you tend to like to add the word "alone" to Scripture, just like Luther. Certainly, you know the warning you folks like to throw around about "adding" to Scripture, right? Since I wasn't quoting from Scripture, your remarks make no sense. I'm sure "us folks" are waiting for your evidence that God declared something other than Scripture to be inspired.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/29/2008 8:35:13 AM
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2Preacher
Posts: 142
Joined: 2/7/2008
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Kelman and Gatolover:
I think your both ate being a little rude and inconsiderate in your charges against each other. I understand your frustrations with each other, but please. The topic is not the "church, the Scriptures, etc." It is "praying to the saints and Mary".
I admit that this topic is NARROW, but that is the Moderator's choice. There are many other issues that relate to this topic, but arguing about those "other " issues does not further discussion of the topic. It simply frustrates all of us.
Take it for what it's worth.
2Preacher
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/29/2008 2:19:02 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11666
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please desist in making personal remarks in this thread--doing so will put your account in jeopardy, I guarantee it.
If one cannot discuss the topic and argue with the position rather than the person, I strongly suggest getting out of the thread.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/1/2008 7:12:41 AM
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Bonlee
Posts: 37
Joined: 8/7/2008
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Catholicandloveit:
For fun lets post the WHOLE thing and not half a thought.
"Following the prayer after Communion, the Dean of the College of Cardinals performs the rite of the final commendation and farewell. Standing next to the coffin with the other concelebrants, he invites those present to pray with these words:
Dear brothers and sisters, we entrust to the most gentle mercy of God the soul of our Pope John Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church, who confirmed his brothers with belief in the resurrection.
We pray to God the Father through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit for the deceased, so that, ransomed by death, he may be received in his peace and that his body may rise on the last day.
The Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of the Apostles and savior of the people of Rome, intercede to God for us so that the face of his blessed Son may be shown to our Pope and comfort the Church with the light of the resurrection."
This is also found at http://www.ewtn.com/JohnPaul2/_mourning/ritessummary1.asp
in more detail if anyone cares  .
[/quote]
Hi Catholicandloveit
Thank you for posting the website above.
I've saved it to my favs list and will refer to it often.
While referring to it - I went in and began reading through some of the writings and under the Apostolic Exhortations heading found "The Consecrated Life" - Vita Consecrata. (Item 8)
It is rather long, but very informative and covers all the various areas of ministry within the church.
At the very end the pope closes of course in prayer.
What struck me were the titles he gave to these prayers.
The first is called: "Prayer to The Holy Trinity"
He directs his prayer to the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit - invidivually.
The second is called: "Invocation to the Blessed Mary"
He covers everything he said in the prayer above...over again, but
now places it in Mary's care.
My question is why?
To me it indicates that there is no real confidence in the efficiency of the prayer offered up to "The Holy Trinity", or rather in the efficiency of it being carried out.
The other question I had, was in the different titles given, one of "prayer" the other being "invocation". Why did he make such a distinction?
I did a dictionary search to try and establish if there was a distinction between these words and there definitely seems to be.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Prayer is the act of attempting to communicate with a deity or spirit. Purposes for this may include worshipping, requesting guidance, requesting assistance, confessing sins, as an act of reparation or to express one's thoughts and emotions. The words of the prayer may take the form of intercession, a hymn, incantation or a spontaneous utterance in the person's praying words. Secularly, the term can also be used as an alternative to "hope". Praying can be done in public, as a group, or in private. Most major religions in the world involve prayer in one way or another.
The efficacy of prayer as a petition to a deity is usually evaluated with regard to the concept of prayer healing. There have been numerous studies done, with contradictory results. There has been some criticism of the way the studies were conducted.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An invocation (from the Latin verb invocare "to call on, invoke") may take the form of:
• Supplication or prayer.
• A form of possession.
• Command or conjuration.
• Self-identification with certain spirits.
These forms are described below, but are not mutually exclusive. See also Theurgy
Merriam Webster Dictionary Online
Prayer
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French priere, praiere, preiere, from Medieval Latin precaria, from Latin, feminine of precarius obtained by entreaty, from prec-, prex
Date:
14th century
1 a (1): an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought <said a prayer for the success of the voyage> (2): a set order of words used in praying b: an earnest request or wish2: the act or practice of praying to God or a god <kneeling in prayer>3: a religious service consisting chiefly of prayers —often used in plural4: something prayed for5: a slight chance <haven't got a prayer>
Merriam Webster Online
in•vo•ca•tion
Etymology:
Middle English invocacioun, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French invocation, from Latin invocation-, invocatio, from invocare
Date:
14th century
1 a: the act or process of petitioning for help or support; specifically often capitalized : a prayer of entreaty (as at the beginning of a service of worship) b: a calling upon for authority or justification 2: a formula for conjuring : INCANTATION3: an act of legal or moral implementation : ENFORCEMENT
— in•vo•ca•tion•al \-shnəl, -shə-nəl\ adjective
— in•voc•a•to•ry \in-ˈvä-kə-ˌtȯr-ç\ adjective
NEW CATHOLIC DICIONARY– Online –
"Invocation" is not listed?
New Advent Website
Prayer
(Greek euchesthai, Latin precari, French prier, to plead, to beg, to ask earnestly).
An act of the virtue of religion which consists in asking proper gifts or graces from God. In a more general sense it is the application of the mind to Divine things, not merely to acquire a knowledge of them but to make use of such knowledge as a means of union with God. This may be done by acts of praise and thanksgiving, but petition is the principal act of prayer. (Note: there is more on the site to read)
New Advent Website
Invocation:
When you type in the word there is no explanation is given in itself, as when you do with "prayer" - however there is a list of examples beginning with “Intercession” – scroll down and you find a title with “Divination” when you go in - the history of how it was in the church at one point in time - how it was expelled. (Note: which I believe is questionable).
Why would the pope, the leader of the church, make such a distinction in his writing? "Prayer" and "Invocation" ? Especially when the meaning of the words imply that there is a difference....as evidenced by the dictionary samples (noting that the Catholic ones either simply don't list the word "invocation" or have various other meanings attached to it..including the "divination" one, which of course they say has long since been banished in the church)?
Perhaps "praying to the Saints & Mary" is the least of the Catholic Church's problems....
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/1/2008 9:42:24 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 891
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
Why would the pope, the leader of the church, make such a distinction in his writing? "Prayer" and "Invocation" ? Especially when the meaning of the words imply that there is a difference....as evidenced by the dictionary samples (noting that the Catholic ones either simply don't list the word "invocation" or have various other meanings attached to it..including the "divination" one, which of course they say has long since been banished in the church)?
To me, this argument is being Pharisaical (if that's a word...)
If a stop sign is dirty, it may look maroon instead of red, but you'll still get a ticket if you don't come to a stop at it. SO why argue that the red stop sign appears to be maroon if it is dirty, and whether or not one should still stop.
To invoke (invocation) the prayers of a Saint is to ask nothing from them but their prayers. As far as Mary goes - that's all that can be asked. Mary can't do anything for me, except offer her prayers for my causes. In invoking her prayers, I am joining mine to hers, for our mutual causes. However, her free will choice to bear our Savior is in part responsible for Him being here to save us. Take that for what it is.
If my cause is invalid (Please God, let the Sooners win this weekend...), it is likely that my prayer will not be joined with Mary's, as I doubt very seriously that Mary could give a hoot about the OU Sooners....except maybe that none of them get hurt during the game.
I continue to see most here who refuse to learn, but merely continue to be obtuse, and are attempting to accuse Catholics of doing something they simply do not do, nor teach.
I'd much rather discuss the efficacy of prayer, than argue over the semantics of language wherein some try to fit the evidence to their prejudiced beliefs, rather than examine and challenge those prejudiced beliefs.
What would Jesus do?
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/1/2008 1:43:48 PM
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Bonlee
Posts: 37
Joined: 8/7/2008
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Hi Doghouse!
What would Jesus do?
I think Jesus would be the first to point out that "Pharisaical" is indeed a word! ( have to admit - I had to look it up though.....  )
As you are aware, He had a lot to say to the Pharisees of His day - the whole chapter of Matthew 23 - very comparable in a lot of ways to some Churches today. Food for thought.
Doghouse:
I continue to see most here who refuse to learn, but merely continue to be obtuse, and are attempting to accuse Catholics of doing something they simply do not do, nor teach.
Bonlee:
I am attempting to learn...I've been investigating and reading the posts....asking questions...however simply because I refuse to accept the answers that are given...or the attempts of dismissal or diversion when one of the questions is too "uncomfortable" for a 'pat' reply....does not indicate I am being obtuse...it simply indicates that either Catholics don't really know what's going on and they do it by "rote" or - they realize that "somethings just not right", but can't get out of it gracefully.
Doghouse:
I'd much rather discuss the efficacy of prayer, than argue over the semantics of language wherein some try to fit the evidence to their prejudiced beliefs, rather than examine and challenge those prejudiced beliefs.
Tch...tch...tch....now who's being "obtuse"?
In regards to the "semantics of language" - I believe it to be extremely valid in asking why such a definition is used - especially by a leader of the Church - THE leader of the Church - it must have some relevance?
Obviously to "pray" is different to "invoking" - and as I stated....only in one of the Catholic dictionaries did they go into a long, long, longgggggggg....explanation of the difference between "divination" and "praying"...so someone, at some point, thought it better be explainable..they did make an attempt.
The other Catholic reference - simply didn't bother - it's not in their "index" of words to search for...hmmm?
As for the "efficacy" of "prayer" - that's one thing....as for the "efficacy" of "invoking" ...well that could be a few things, as illustrated in the other definitions I posted, including "divination", which is wrong.
But let's talk about the efficacy of prayer and my question as to why would the pope pray to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and then turn around and make an "invocation" to MARY asking basically the same thing?
Had he no faith in the efficacy of his prayer or the efficacy of the All mighty Triune God to make it happen - or - was he elevating Mary to be equal to their "efficacy"? Do They need some extra "help"?
In fact he asks her to "Teach" them ( the ones consecrated for service) ...isn't that the purpose of the HOLY SPIRIT?
Honestly - go read it and see for yourself.
http://www.ewtn.com/JohnPaul2/_mourning/ritessummary1.asp
Doghouse - I am trying to be very careful in posting anything in here from sites that are not either recommended by other Catholic posters or clearly defined as "official" Catholic websites - this one was posted.
Hope the "Sooners" win!!! 
God Bless!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/2/2008 1:26:10 PM
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2Preacher
Posts: 142
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
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Catholicandloveit:
Just wondering - How do you KNOW that Mary can i.e. is able to "pray for you?" I don't find that in my Bible. I have a few verses that say things to the contrary about the dead. (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6)
Like all of the "saints", Mary is long dead and gone. I just don't understand praying to some one who is dead and buried.
Christ, on the other hand, is alive and well. The resurrection of Christ is a well substantiated fact in Scripture. (Romans 1:4; I Corinthians 15:1-8; All of the Gospels) The Scriptures even tell us that he is "seated at the right hand of the Father" (Romans 8:34;Col.3:1; Heb. 1:3; I Peter 3:18-22) and that he is there for the express purpose "to make intercession for them." (I Tim. 2:5-6;Hebrews 7:25)
There is no such verse in Scripture regarding Mary or any other of the saints. I fail to see where the justification for prayers to the saints and Mary lies?
I realize that your church "tradition" teaches it, but please specify in Scripture for me where the justification for this act is found? Show me a verse where Mary is named as "co-mediatrix"? Show me where it is implied as doctrine? I don't think that you can. Surprise me!
I am not trying to be a "smart alex", I just want to know and learn where this doctrine is based in Scripture. You can even quote the Latin Vulgate or the Rheims Douay if you like. I have access to both and will gladly look up the verses.
Thanks for your effort.
2Preacher
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/2/2008 2:23:26 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
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Hi 2Preacher
Mary and the Saints are alive,
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.
Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.
John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.
And we are all to pray for one another -
1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ's work because we are God's "fellow workers" and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe "fellow workers" is "sunergoi," which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints, then so can we, who are called to imitate Jesus in word and in deed. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
Mary's intercession started Jesus' ministry,
John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary's intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.
John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
Other intercession examples
Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)
Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.
Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah's prayers before the Holy One. This teaches
us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.
Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.
2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/2/2008 2:39:54 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
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2Preacher -
The Marian title "Co-redemptrix" refers to the unique participation of Mary in the work of our redemption accomplished by Jesus Christ. The prefix "co" comes from the Latin word "cum," which means "with" and "not equal to."
The term as used by the Church never places Mary on a level of equality with Jesus Christ, the divine redeemer. Yet the free and active human cooperation by the Mother of Jesus in redemption, particularly at the annunciation and at Calvary, is rightfully acknowledged by the papal magisterium and the teachings of the Second Vatican Council -- see "Lumen Gentium," Nos. 56, 57, 58 and 61 -- and becomes the pre-eminent example of how every Christian is called to become a "co-worker with God."
If I remember correctly a much better post about this title is somewhere on this thread, I think from Doghouse.
Gotta go pack boxes!
Pax,
Mary
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Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/2/2008 6:40:14 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 891
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
Honestly - go read it and see for yourself. I have. A little research would yield the following explanation on the same site.
Link to "Savior of Rome" translation from Latin
If you search the instance of "Mary" in the article you cited, everyone of them refers to Mary offering her prayers.
This is my point - you seem to want so badly that what was said to mean what you want it to mean, that you didn't take the time to see what it really means, and will not be bothered to take the informed opinion of those on this site that can tell you exactly what it means.
You have an agenda. You are sure Catholics worship Saints and if you search wide and far enough, you will find that smoking gun. There are several here who have instructed you otherwise, and yet you still persist.
So go ahead - keep throwing your red herrings up here, and we'll keep refuting them. Oh, what a fun time that is...
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/3/2008 12:25:14 AM
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Bonlee
Posts: 37
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Honestly - go read it and see for yourself. I have. A little research would yield the following explanation on the same site.
Link to "Savior of Rome" translation from Latin
If you search the instance of "Mary" in the article you cited, everyone of them refers to Mary offering her prayers.
This is my point - you seem to want so badly that what was said to mean what you want it to mean, that you didn't take the time to see what it really means, and will not be bothered to take the informed opinion of those on this site that can tell you exactly what it means.
You have an agenda. You are sure Catholics worship Saints and if you search wide and far enough, you will find that smoking gun. There are several here who have instructed you otherwise, and yet you still persist.
Hello Doghouse:
Either you have sincerely missed the point of my posting or you are deliberately being evasive - I wasn't referring to worshipping Mary or the saints....I was referring to the words "praying" and "invoking" (Mary and the saints) - a definition seemingly important enough for the pope to make a distinction of the two words - perhaps it would be worth your time to look into it yourself - otherwise it gives the impression that you blindly accept and mimick whatever you are instructed to do. Why is that? Have you put your implicit faith in the Church and its leaders, instead of in God?
So go ahead - keep throwing your red herrings ( or uncomfortable questions? ) up here, and we'll keep refuting them. (Dodging them.....)Oh, what a fun time that is...
"Praying" has a definite definition in the secular dictionaries and for use in here - the Catholic dictionaries.
"Invoking" (invoke/invocation) isn't as clearly defined. And not even listed in one of the Catholic dictionaries.
I'll repeat a portion of my previous posting's question:
"Why would the pope, the leader of the church, make such a distinction in his writing? "Prayer" and "Invocation" ? Especially when the meaning of the words imply that there is a difference....as evidenced by the dictionary samples (noting that the Catholic ones either simply don't list the word "invocation" or have various other meanings attached to it..including the "divination" one, which of course they say has long since been banished in the church)? "
Merriam Webster:
Invocation - prayer of entreaty (as at the beginning of a service of worship)
2: a formula for conjuring
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An invocation (from the Latin verb invocare "to call on, invoke") may take the form of:
• Supplication or prayer
• A form of possession.
• Command or conjuration.
• Self-identification with certain spirits
The only reason I can understand for the pope making this distinction, is that he was doing two different things. 1. Offering a "prayer" to the Trinity and 2. "invoking"(which mustn't be the same as praying or wouldn't he just use "the prayer to Mary"?) - out of the definitions above, that would leave....."conjuring" - "a form of possession" - "self-identification with certain spirits"....? Oh I left out the New Advent one - "divination".
Perhaps "praying to the Saints & Mary" is the least of the Catholic Church's problems.
Prayer to the Holy Trinity
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