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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 4:54:27 PM
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Carico
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I also want to add that the very fact that the Catholics omitted the commandment in Exodus 20:4 proves that they know they are disobeying it. If they weren't disobeying it, then there's no reason to try to erase it. They obviously couldn't stand to look at it any more. 
What they should do is instead of trying to erase God's Word when they're convicted, is start trying to obey it. But only God's chosen can do that. So their own behavior shows that they know they're guilty.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 5:00:59 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
And considering that there are pictures of Pope John Paul bowing down, kissing and praying to a statue of Mary, that's precisely why there is no good reason to carve even a statue of Mary!
What prayer did Pope John Paul say to the statue? Also, is kissing worship? If a wife kisses a picture of her husband who is serving in Iraq, is that worship?
quote:
So the catholics absolutely carve statues of people as idols because they worship them by bowing down, kissing and praying to them just like the pagans do with their gods which are nothing more than objects of stone.
Sorry, we don't worship statues. But if you think we do, why don't you find evidence from the Catechism that says we do worship statues.
quote:
But the Catholics have as much contempt for God's word as they have for mine and the words of others who believe the bible. That's why they even omitted the commandment in Exodus 20:4, thinking that they can erase any of God's Word. So not only are the catholics proud of disobeying God's word and breaking His commandments, they even think they can omit one of His commandments!...as if you think you can fool God.
Actually, if you look at Exodus 20:4 in both the New American Bible and the NIV, I cannot find substantive difference between the two. The only difference is that we lumped part of what you call the second commandment into the first commandment.
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So you have zero defense of your position except that you place the pope's words above God's word. That proves that you worship people, not the living God. So since you don't listen to God's Word, you're not going to listen to anyone who believes and follows God's Word. You will always be at odds with us.
No, nothing in this area is against God's word. It is just against your interpretation of God's word.
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And as to your other statements, Pr. 28:23, "He who rebukes a man will in the end gain more favor than he who has a flattering tongue." 
I will keep that in mind, the fact that my time on this board will in the end bring me more favor.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 5:08:52 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 547
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
I also want to add that the very fact that the Catholics omitted the commandment in Exodus 20:4 proves that they know they are disobeying it. If they weren't disobeying it, then there's no reason to try to erase it. They obviously couldn't stand to look at it any more.
Here is the link to the first commandment in the Catholic Catechism. As you can see, we omitted nothing.
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/comm1.html#FIRST
quote:
What they should do is instead of trying to erase God's Word when they're convicted, is start trying to obey it. But only God's chosen can do that. So their own behavior shows that they know they're guilty.
Perhaps before you accuse Catholics of something, perhaps you should actually try to understand what Catholics believe. That way you don't run into the problem of bearing false witness. Although I am sure it is not intentional, I am sure you would be horrified if someone received false information from you.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 5:08:55 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
And considering that there are pictures of Pope John Paul bowing down, kissing and praying to a statue of Mary, that's precisely why there is no good reason to carve even a statue of Mary!
What prayer did Pope John Paul say to the statue? Also, is kissing worship? If a wife kisses a picture of her husband who is serving in Iraq, is that worship?
quote:
So the catholics absolutely carve statues of people as idols because they worship them by bowing down, kissing and praying to them just like the pagans do with their gods which are nothing more than objects of stone.
Sorry, we don't worship statues. But if you think we do, why don't you find evidence from the Catechism that says we do worship statues.
quote:
But the Catholics have as much contempt for God's word as they have for mine and the words of others who believe the bible. That's why they even omitted the commandment in Exodus 20:4, thinking that they can erase any of God's Word. So not only are the catholics proud of disobeying God's word and breaking His commandments, they even think they can omit one of His commandments!...as if you think you can fool God.
Actually, if you look at Exodus 20:4 in both the New American Bible and the NIV, I cannot find substantive difference between the two. The only difference is that we lumped part of what you call the second commandment into the first commandment.
quote:
So you have zero defense of your position except that you place the pope's words above God's word. That proves that you worship people, not the living God. So since you don't listen to God's Word, you're not going to listen to anyone who believes and follows God's Word. You will always be at odds with us.
No, nothing in this area is against God's word. It is just against your interpretation of God's word.
quote:
And as to your other statements, Pr. 28:23, "He who rebukes a man will in the end gain more favor than he who has a flattering tongue."
I will keep that in mind, the fact that my time on this board will in the end bring me more favor.
Why kiss stone?  Why treat stone the same way God wants us to treat Him? Do you know the difference between kissing a human being and a carved object made by human hands? Kissing carved objects is idol worship. You are loving an object.
So you obviously have no clue why God gave us the Commandment in Exodus 20:4 which is why the Catholics have erased it. Again, that alone proves they know they are guilty and no amount of arguing is going to change that. Actions speak much louder than words.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 5:11:03 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Do you know the difference between kissing a human being and a carved object made by human hands? Kissing carved objects is idol worship. You are loving an object.
I hate to tell you but a photograph is not a human being. It is an object made by human hands.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 5:20:07 PM
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Carico
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I also want to add that the Jews of the OT also claimed to love God. But in their actions, they erected objects of wood and stone, bowed down to them and prayed to them all the while paying lip service to the living God. So you need to read the whole bible to see God's punishment of the Jews for doing the very thing the Catholics do.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 5:22:38 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Are you trying to show us why God is wrong in Exodus 20:4?
What I am trying to prove is that just because someone kisses an object, it doesn't mean that the person is worshiping the object. If a wife kisses a picture, she is not worshiping it. She is honoring her husband. There is nothing wrong with that. Just the same, there is nothing wrong with honoring saints. What would be wrong is to worship them.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 5:24:57 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
they don't understand that objects can't speak and can't hear our prayers.
We are not praying to objects, anymore than a protestant who kneels before his bed is praying to his bed.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 5:29:17 PM
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stellaluna
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I believe there is a difference between kneeling before the bed and addressing St. Bed. Some of these arguments are very silly.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 5:44:24 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I believe there is a difference between kneeling before the bed and addressing St. Bed. Some of these arguments are very silly.
The point is, that if one is kneeling before a statue, that does not mean that one is praying to the statue.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 5:51:35 PM
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stellaluna
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It means they are showing reverence to the statue...otherwise, why would you kneel at all?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 8:16:56 PM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
And considering that there are pictures of Pope John Paul bowing down, kissing and praying to a statue of Mary, that's precisely why there is no good reason to carve even a statue of Mary!
What prayer did Pope John Paul say to the statue? Also, is kissing worship? If a wife kisses a picture of her husband who is serving in Iraq, is that worship?
You have used this feeble excuse before.
Why would you kiss a picture of your wife ?
Why does the pope kiss a statue of Mary ?
Surely, you can tell us the difference...
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Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 8:20:07 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
It means they are showing reverence to the statue...otherwise, why would you kneel at all?
Again, great observation.
It is painfully obvious isn't it ?
Let's use a simple illustration:
If you drove by my house, and I was
in the front yard kneeling before a statue
of Mary, what would you accuse me of ?
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 8:40:00 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
You have used this feeble excuse before.
Why would you kiss a picture of your wife ?
Why does the pope kiss a statue of Mary ?
Surely, you can tell us the difference...
For the same reason in both cases.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 8:42:03 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Let's use a simple illustration:
If you drove by my house, and I was
in the front yard kneeling before a statue
of Mary, what would you accuse me of ?
I have never seen anyone kneeling before a statue of mary in their yard. But if they were, there could be any number of reasons.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 8:54:16 PM
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Carico
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
So there's no reason to pray to her and erect statues of her. The Catholics have no clue why Jesus didn't erect a statue of His mother. No clue.
Jeremiah 10:5, "Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them. they can do no harm nor can they do any good." So the statues of Mary that litter the Catholic churches are as useless as praying to a person who cannot answer you.
Is answered prayer attributed to God alone ?
When a prayer of mine is answered, I humbly
thank God that He graciously, in His mercy answered.
I entirely attribute the outcome to God...100 % !!!
I have no reason WHATSOEVER to thank Mary.
When a RC prayer is answered-who gets thanked ?
Does God receive all the praise, glory, and honor ?
Or since Mary interceeded, is she thanked as well ?
[/quote)
Giving credit to people for God's work in them is condemned all throughout the bible. But as is common knowledge, the Catholics don't follow the bible.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 9:28:30 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 547
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quote:
Giving credit to people for God's work in them is condemned all throughout the bible. But as is common knowledge, the Catholics don't follow the bible.
Common knowledge or common prejudice?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/22/2008 9:41:57 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
This thread is closed for the weekend, since no one seems to have anything on topic to say.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/25/2008 12:30:10 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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Reopening the thread.
Please keep it on the topic of praying to the Saints and/or Mary.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/25/2008 9:11:58 PM
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gatolover
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I still haven't noticed any comments of the following from a previous post of mine:
quote:
Just as the Church was inspired by the Spirit to define the doctrine of the Trinity from Scripture, Scripture also affirms the unity of the Body of Christ, everlasting life in Him, the mutual care and concern that is exercised by God's children, and the fact that nothing can separate us from Him Who binds us in perfect communion through the One Who loves us and is with us always. That same Church formulated the Creed that assents to belief in the "Communion of Saints." I don't know about you, but the promises of Christ's unending love means always to me, not just until I kick the bucket here on earth, nor should, or did, any Christian believe His love/grace ends at physical death until the innovation brought about by the "reformation." If His Love is in us, there is no way those Saints perfected and standing in His Everlasting Presence don't give a hoot about their fellow members of the Body of Christ. That's what our Lord was all about...loving others, and that is what He expects from His disciples/followers/children.
Consider St. Paul's words in 1Cor. 12. [Youz guyz like St. Paul, right?] ;)
quote:
Now the body is not a single part, but many....The eye cannot say to the hand, "I DO NOT NEED YOU."....so that there may be NO DIVISION IN THE BODY, BUT THAT THE PARTS MAY HAVE THE SAME CONCERN FOR ONE ANOTHER. IF [ONE] PART SUFFERS, ALL THE PARTS SUFFER WITH IT; IF ONE PART IS HONORED, ALL THE PARTS SHARE ITS JOY.
No comments from the non-Catholic community here? Surely, St. Paul echoes the unity of Catholic Christian thought. Right thar in Scripture! :)
Pax Christi,
gatolover
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 8/26/2008 4:15:32 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
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quote:
Just as the Church was inspired by the Spirit.... There is not now nor has there ever been the slightest evidence that "the Church" (which, of course, to RC always means RC) has ever been inspired. God says only of the written Scripture that it is inspired.
quote:
Now the body is not a single part, but many....The eye cannot say to the hand, "I DO NOT NEED YOU."....so that there may be NO DIVISION IN THE BODY, BUT THAT THE PARTS MAY HAVE THE SAME CONCERN FOR ONE ANOTHER. IF [ONE] PART SUFFERS, ALL THE PARTS SUFFER WITH IT; IF ONE PART IS HONORED, ALL THE PARTS SHARE ITS JOY.
No comments from the non-Catholic community here? Surely, St. Paul echoes the unity of Catholic Christian thought. Right thar in Scripture! :)
Nope, that's RC's "echo" not Paul's. Here he ALSO speaks of all those who are in Christ(vs 12) all true believers not a visible congregation. This has nothing to do with any particular denomination such as RC.
Paul is making reference to the mystical body of Christ, the universal and invisible church which includes all - Jews and Gentiles alike have been all made to drink into one Spirit (vs 13).
And when he speaks of the body in physical terms - the local congregations, he certainly doesn't speak of some centralized authoritative "body". He teaches about those in the churches with individual gifts and how we as individuals make-up and depend upon the whole.
When one actually reads the context AND the previous chapters, it can be readily seen that he is not speaking of some "unity of Catholic Christian thought" as some would like to think.
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