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global warming on trial? - 8/26/2009 2:03:59 PM
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GHitch
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U.S. Chamber of Commerce seeks trial on global warming
Here we go again. Trying to decide what is and isn't science, putting scientific debates with evidence and anti-evidence, opinion vs opinion before the courts because of deeply divided views...
As though the courts could or should decide.
Galileo, Scopes, Dover (plus a few 100 others) and now they're talking bringing AGW to court. Why? Because it bothers the pundits, the AGW fear mongerers and their opponents equally.
A lot of pride, prestige and capital are at stake. And who wants a world run by the scientific elite consensus preachers? Where you can end up on trial yourself for believing and speaking the "wrong" version?
Where will it end? In spite of great advances in many scientific domains, consensus scientists and school boards (and now COC) seem to have opened the Pandora's box of scientific stupidity.
"Consensus science" is an oxymoron and bringing the courts in with hopes of getting a decision in ones own favor is disgustingly idiotic.
Like Dover it has nothing to do with science and courts cannot decide which theory is correct.
The fact that there is so much recourse to the legal system these days over scientific opinion is a sign of a clear downward spiral into chaos whenever the consensus views are challenged.
One thing is glaringly evident : science isn't what it used to be and too many scientists have become or are becoming frighteningly partisan and arrogant.
What do you think will happen in this latest demonstration of wrangling over what is the scientifically correct (now equal to politically correct) view?
Scientific theories do not belong in courts of law and cannot be decided in them.
_____________________________
"The success of Darwinism was accompanied by a decline in scientific integrity. ...To establish the continuity required by the theory, historical arguments are invoked even though historical evidence is lacking." -W. R. Thompson, PhD
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RE: global warming on trial? - 8/26/2009 2:59:39 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1741
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
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GHitch, Shalom.
I believe you say rightly, when you say: "One thing is glaringly evident : science isn't what it used to be and too many scientists have become or are becoming frighteningly partisan and arrogant."
What I offer is pure 'IMO,' since I do not follow Environmental Biology, with the fervor today's Scientists supposedly do. I do wonder, quite often, why it is that today's Scientific community seems to neglect considering much of the physical factors which also have a dramatic affect on the variations of climate. I speak of the 'tilt of earth,' the 'wobble factor,' the ellipsis of our orbit, in connection with the tilt and wobble, and so on. These three factors seem to have conjunctive workings on effective energy absorption, and mean temperature deviations, which, seem to never be included into the panic ridden warnings offered by the Scientific community.
I seem to hear great warnings about Carbon Dioxide & Monoxide, etc. destroying the ability of our atmosphere to protect us from the energies of the sun, and therefore must be taxed into 'non-existence (my emphasis), and all the time I have been under the delusion that CO2 and CO, are heavy molecules, even heavier than our normal atmosphere, and therefore sink to 'low' places, rather than 'fly' places.
I do agree with you, I believe, in that should science not be able to figure out science, how on earth is a courtroom judge going to figure out what law to go by, especially since the 'Law of God' is now forbidden reference material, in most courtrooms? Nuff-said.
You should get a good discussion going on this one.
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: global warming on trial? - 8/26/2009 3:43:14 PM
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GHitch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
What I offer is pure 'IMO,' since I do not follow Environmental Biology, with the fervor today's Scientists supposedly do. I do wonder, quite often, why it is that today's Scientific community seems to neglect considering much of the physical factors which also have a dramatic affect on the variations of climate. I speak of the 'tilt of earth,' the 'wobble factor,' the ellipsis of our orbit, in connection with the tilt and wobble, and so on. These three factors seem to have conjunctive workings on effective energy absorption, and mean temperature deviations, which, seem to never be included into the panic ridden warnings offered by the Scientific community. Lately the AGW crowd is warning that climate change may affect earths axis (not the other way around)!! It seems that, like the Darwin crowd they will do anything to confuse and push the issues. Earths axis is always moving though and we can imagine over many centuries climate changes just because of that fact.
The models I've read about for AGW are always flawed! One of the most used ones did not even account for cloud coverage!! Yet cloud coverage alone can have large dynamic effects on global temperatures. How any meteorologist or climatologist could just 'forget' to add the variables and equations for cloud coverage is totally beyond me. Yet that's what these geniuses had done.
Not only so but solar activity is now the number one suspect in the whole GW thing, in the minds of unbiased scientists who aren't out for fortune and glory but only interested in the facts. Yet do we hear any of this on the mass media? Practically nothing at - they're still preaching with evangelical fervor worthy of a Benny Hinn, that anthropogenic global warming is a fact and "we need to act now" or disaster!
I have even read of brilliant scientists and environmentalist fanatics who want to create huge machines to suck the CO2 from the atmosphere!!
Now think of that. Suppose the factors that caused temporary GW are mostly natural and now in reversion (there is evidence that we are now heading into a cooling cycle). Can you imagine the damage they could do to earth's climate by playing God?!
Stupidity and sheer prejudice seems to be the order of the day in today's scientific communities where any thing controversial arises. "Let's settle this in court!!!" As though courts could settle anything scientific - they can barely settle anything legal these days there is so much stupidity being written into law!
_____________________________
"The success of Darwinism was accompanied by a decline in scientific integrity. ...To establish the continuity required by the theory, historical arguments are invoked even though historical evidence is lacking." -W. R. Thompson, PhD
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RE: global warming on trial? - 8/26/2009 4:41:10 PM
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navyblueret
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Legalities are taken care of quickly in today's courts. However, Justice is seldom dispensed, as Legal and Just now seem to be diametrically opposite in nature, where once they were supposed to be synonymous. 
I do not know how accurate the statement, but a while back (months) I believe a statement was made as to the fact that man has approximately a 3% affect on the entire global climate change. So, I guess 3% is enough for someone to pursue making big bucks on the controversy. We are supposed to spend Trillions of dollars to eradicate 3% of the global warming/cooling problem?
FWIIW, as I understand, again, the wobble is to be at it's maximum 'bad tilt' in about December 2012, when everything is lined up with the center of the Milky Way Galaxy, in-which we are flying around in. As a matter of fact, I believe the day is the 21st. of December 2012, (a day that will live in infamy), when a very long running calendar seems to either stop, or start a new era. After that date, the wobble will slowly keep wobbling, but away from the most direct pointing, and the seasons will slowly begin to cool, headed for another ice-age, many centuries down the line. I am sure there may well be scientist's who yap their way into getting people to pay for their research on how to 'warm' things back up, because the wobble is starting it's other half of the circle, rotating to the hottest tilt factor direction, which takes many many centuries, also, to accomplish. Great Job security.
Sorry, I am ranting, so I will close my fingers down, and give them a rest. They need time to do that, between my tirades.
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: global warming on trial? - 9/1/2009 8:30:39 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robertblog
The way I have understood the meaning of End of the world[end of age] corelates very well with global warming! 2012 is a date set by the Mayans which has been scientifically , and astronomically calculated to set a time for the planets to align evoking gamma radiation to burn up the planet, Scientists calculate the chances of a major global asteroid collision with the earth is more likely than one of us being killed in a car crash, Egyptian pyramids have 2012 steps marking the date of the end of the world, super volcano's, tsnuamis. Astronomers think there is a planet X coming to throw the earth off axis, and destroy life, Nuclear Armed Radicals are obtaining doomsday weapons to blow the earth apart to initiate the Mahdi[ Osama bin Laden ] to arise from his cave supernaturaly guarded by genies?, and on, and on, and then: I hear Obama, the U.N., The E.U. ; saying ; We must all unite as one people, one religion, all must know that each of our G-d's or no God atheists, are the same G-d. We must develop a One world order that we may save our planet from destruction; not to mention global warming, and aliens invading. Al Gore sent a team to Antartica to measure the warming , and they had to be rescued from freezing to death!It sure seems to fit into the pattern of the little horn arising[ Antichrist[ to solve the worlds problems, and he will show many miracles to decieve ; even the elect!, and Israel shall stand alone, or should I say the world stands alone without the true G-d; and His Son, and chosen ;Israel and the graphted gentiles. The four beasts arise from the ten horns[ten Islamic Nations] , and become one beast[empire] empowered by the eleventh little horn, of the dragon;The horns consist of Islamic Nations correlating to; [Kings , and princes, emirates] They are; Pakistan, Libya, Iran, Iraq , Ethiopia , Macedonia , Afganistan, Syria, Lebanon,Egypt, and Greece[ Revelation 13:2] In Daniel he mentions three horns plucked out , and are Egypt, Libya, and Ethiopia, and as theologians have studied this endlessly, It seems he will be headquartered in Babylon. Isn't it great to know our tax dollars , and troops are dying, and rebuilding it for him?Unfortunately the U.S. is not mentioned in prophecy; only the church[raptured soon I hope!] [continued]
What?
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RE: global warming on trial? - 9/2/2009 10:14:33 AM
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GHitch
Posts: 807
Joined: 7/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Robertblog
The way I have understood the meaning of End of the world[end of age] corelates very well with global warming! 2012 is a date set by the Mayans which has been scientifically , and astronomically calculated to set a time for the planets to align evoking gamma radiation to burn up the planet, Scientists calculate the chances of a major global asteroid collision with the earth is more likely than one of us being killed in a car crash, Egyptian pyramids have 2012 steps marking the date of the end of the world, super volcano's, tsnuamis. Astronomers think there is a planet X coming to throw the earth off axis, and destroy life, Nuclear Armed Radicals are obtaining doomsday weapons to blow the earth apart to initiate the Mahdi[ Osama bin Laden ] to arise from his cave supernaturaly guarded by genies?, and on, and on, and then: I hear Obama, the U.N., The E.U. ; saying ; We must all unite as one people, one religion, all must know that each of our G-d's or no God atheists, are the same G-d. We must develop a One world order that we may save our planet from destruction; not to mention global warming, and aliens invading. Al Gore sent a team to Antartica to measure the warming , and they had to be rescued from freezing to death!It sure seems to fit into the pattern of the little horn arising[ Antichrist[ to solve the worlds problems, and he will show many miracles to decieve ; even the elect!, and Israel shall stand alone, or should I say the world stands alone without the true G-d; and His Son, and chosen ;Israel and the graphted gentiles. The four beasts arise from the ten horns[ten Islamic Nations] , and become one beast[empire] empowered by the eleventh little horn, of the dragon;The horns consist of Islamic Nations correlating to; [Kings , and princes, emirates] They are; Pakistan, Libya, Iran, Iraq , Ethiopia , Macedonia , Afganistan, Syria, Lebanon,Egypt, and Greece[ Revelation 13:2] In Daniel he mentions three horns plucked out , and are Egypt, Libya, and Ethiopia, and as theologians have studied this endlessly, It seems he will be headquartered in Babylon. Isn't it great to know our tax dollars , and troops are dying, and rebuilding it for him?Unfortunately the U.S. is not mentioned in prophecy; only the church[raptured soon I hope!] [continued]
What?
What what??
_____________________________
"The success of Darwinism was accompanied by a decline in scientific integrity. ...To establish the continuity required by the theory, historical arguments are invoked even though historical evidence is lacking." -W. R. Thompson, PhD
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RE: global warming on trial? - 9/2/2009 12:47:15 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1741
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: online
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Robertblog added a number of ingredients to the global warming 'stew.' Perhaps the offering is a bit more inclusive than one might consider necessary, but one may now take the separate ingredients offered, and add or subtract, as desired, to attain a complete portrait of evidence needed to understand the whole picture. Most people think 'bullet' thoughts, Robertblog thinks 'shot-gun' thoughts, that's all. Just a thought.
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/20/2009 4:07:46 PM
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Ohioman1972
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Now that there is significant evidence that data supporting climate change has been manipulated, will the supporters/alarmists concede that the whole idea may be unfounded?
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/21/2009 7:46:38 AM
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Ohioman1972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ohioman1972
Now that there is significant evidence that data supporting climate change has been manipulated, will the supporters/alarmists concede that the whole idea may be unfounded?
Well I guess the answer is "No". I have posed this question in other areas and some alarmists with whom I have had several debates read the question yet did not answer.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/21/2009 4:51:00 PM
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KaptZ
Posts: 450
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From: The swamps of Jersey
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Even if 'global warming' is not due entirely to human activity why not try and cut our emissions anyway?
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/22/2009 5:08:32 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
Even if 'global warming' is not due entirely to human activity why not try and cut our emissions anyway?
Why would we want to FURTHER TRASH the world economy for something that is demonstrably a crock?
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/22/2009 9:12:51 PM
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KaptZ
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From: The swamps of Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
Even if 'global warming' is not due entirely to human activity why not try and cut our emissions anyway?
Why would we want to FURTHER TRASH the world economy for something that is demonstrably a crock?
Even if you thought HELL was 'demonstrably a crock' would you hit your wife?
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/22/2009 11:00:11 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
Even if 'global warming' is not due entirely to human activity why not try and cut our emissions anyway?
Why would we want to FURTHER TRASH the world economy for something that is demonstrably a crock?
Even if you thought HELL was 'demonstrably a crock' would you hit your wife?
While I disagree with your theology and the validity of your analogy, I do see your point. I'll respond with this analogy, we could also wreck the economy fighting the man-bear-pig threat, yet we choose not to. Let's face it, they were wrong about global warming. It's not caused by human emissions. We probably should reduce emissions to improve our air quality. We should probably not wreck the US economy to do so, but it is a decent goal.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/23/2009 11:24:15 AM
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KaptZ
Posts: 450
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From: The swamps of Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Let's face it, they were wrong about global warming. It's not caused by human emissions.
I think I'll wait on more evidence to come out before I 'face' that. I'd rather we thought it was our fault and were wrong, than the other way around.
quote:
We probably should reduce emissions to improve our air quality. We should probably not wreck the US economy to do so, but it is a decent goal.
I never thought we should 'wreck' the economy of the US or any other nation. I just hope we can keep the idea of regulating emissions and pollution in general from being discarded in hopes of spurring a recovery.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/23/2009 8:49:54 PM
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Trixter
Posts: 119
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Let's face it, they were wrong about global warming.
Oh, really? Who rendered this verdict for us: Glenn Beck?
quote:
It's not caused by human emissions. We probably should reduce emissions to improve our air quality.
Why bother? If you don't find it significant that the Antarctic is melting, then why bother about air quality? People aren't dropping dead in the streets choking on bad air.
quote:
We should probably not wreck the US economy to do so, but it is a decent goal.
How do we achieve your "decent goal" without wrecking the already wrecked U.S. economy?
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/24/2009 8:30:33 AM
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Strider33
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GHitch,
I agree with you that consensus science is stupid. However, there are two big things that have to be added.
Science has been the subject of peer review for a long long time now. Peer review rejected Einstein's theory of relativity for about 20 years. Peer review rejected the discovery of oxygen for a long time. Peer review is not stupid. It's the absence of peer review that causes so much information entropy on the web.
Public education is inevitably the stuff of consensus. If you don't have a consensus about what is both true and useful for the education of our children, you can't form a public education system at all. America might be flying apart into a bunch of isolated subcultures to the extent that public education is just no longer possible.
We're in big trouble if that's the case. Settling for the lowest common denominator of what we can all agree on is a plan for undereducating the children. The tyranny of the majority is not acceptable either.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/24/2009 12:26:50 PM
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demolay
Posts: 281
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These envirowhackos seem to ignore the science of the carbon cycle. How many know that all life requires carbon to exist and, in fact, is based upon carbon? How many know that some greenhouses actually release extra CO2 into them because then the plants grow so much bigger and faster?
I think the biggest long-term effect of raised CO2 is ..... more plants!
As a thought experiment, if envirowhackos ever succeed in getting CO2-sucking-and-burying machines built that are big enough to make a difference, how many would trust them to know when to turn them off before massive crop failures ensue due to too-low CO2 in the atomosphere?
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/25/2009 2:09:38 PM
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Trixter
Posts: 119
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quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
These envirowhackos seem to ignore the science of the carbon cycle.
On the contrary, it is by understanding the carbon cycle wherein we know something is up. The late 19th & 20th Century increase- a dramatic increase- in atmospheric carbons coupled with a slow-but-sure increase in the earth's surface temperature suggests to most thinking people that something is amiss: that and the fact that the world's highest snow caps, glaciers, and even the Antarctic itself are melting.
Those who so desperately try to shout down these facts are obviously scared to death of something here . . . but what? Fill me in.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/25/2009 3:14:49 PM
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demolay
Posts: 281
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Personnally, I'm scared of having to pay 10x the cost of energy we pay today, for nothing good in return. Maybe you haven't heard how the fraud behind all this has been unmasked.
Fraud in Climate Research Unit
They are calling this Climategate: the greatest scandel in modern science
This is so big, the Senate is calling for a congressional investigation to find out who lied when, who knew and, I hope, to imprison those who have tried to hoist one of the greatest scientific frauds on the world community since Darwin.
Call for Climategate investigation
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/25/2009 8:34:36 PM
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Trixter
Posts: 119
Joined: 11/23/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
Personnally, I'm scared of having to pay 10x the cost of energy we pay today, for nothing good in return.
Hmm . . . somehow I missed the extra zero on my bill. No wonder I'm not quaking.
quote:
Maybe you haven't heard how the fraud behind all this has been unmasked.
. . . According to the latest and greatest conspiracy theories.
I don't believe in conspiracy theories- not one.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/26/2009 4:07:39 AM
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tacitus
Posts: 1579
Joined: 5/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
I think the biggest long-term effect of raised CO2 is ..... more plants!
That might have been okay if we hadn't already clear cut the vast majority of forests -- i.e. the biggest carbon sinks -- on Earth.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/26/2009 4:10:57 AM
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tacitus
Posts: 1579
Joined: 5/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
Personnally, I'm scared of having to pay 10x the cost of energy we pay today, for nothing good in return. Maybe you haven't heard how the fraud behind all this has been unmasked.
Fraud in Climate Research Unit
They are calling this Climategate: the greatest scandel in modern science
This is so big, the Senate is calling for a congressional investigation to find out who lied when, who knew and, I hope, to imprison those who have tried to hoist one of the greatest scientific frauds on the world community since Darwin.
Call for Climategate investigation
Actually, to you it might be hugh and series, but to the governments tasked with making these decisions, it doesn't change anything. If you go to the thread in the news section, I added a link to the response from the scientists involved. The data they have been accused of covering up has actually been published and debated openly for the last several years and changes nothing regarding the validity of the issue. It takes some serious reading to understand the science involved, so I hope you have plenty of time to spare.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/26/2009 4:18:31 AM
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tacitus
Posts: 1579
Joined: 5/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
Personnally, I'm scared of having to pay 10x the cost of energy we pay today, for nothing good in return.
Hyperbole much.
There is going to be a steep rise in energy prices whether or not global warming is happening unless we take steps to reduce our consumption of fossil fuels since there is no way fossil fuel production will able to keep up with the rise in demand for ever as China and India (countries with far greater populations that ours) continue to grow economically.
It only makes sense to reduce our consumption and invest more in renewable resources like solar and wind. And lucky for you, that's what many good American businesses are doing. If we don't do it then other countries will and will leave the US in the dust.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/26/2009 8:15:58 AM
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Trixter
Posts: 119
Joined: 11/23/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
It only makes sense to reduce our consumption and invest more in renewable resources like solar and wind. And lucky for you, that's what many good American businesses are doing. If we don't do it then other countries will and will leave the US in the dust.
Ironically, one of those countries is China, which you mentioned aforehand.
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RE: global warming on trial? - 11/28/2009 11:10:20 AM
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demolay
Posts: 281
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tacitus
That might have been okay if we hadn't already clear cut the vast majority of forests -- i.e. the biggest carbon sinks -- on Earth.
If you look here:
Carbon Cycle
You might note that the oceans store 75X more carbon than all land vegetation combined. You are simply wrong in your statement.
What I'm wondering, is when will they get around to declaring water as a pollutant? H2O is a MUCH more effective greenhouse gas than CO2. You should have personally experienced this by comparing how much colder nights get on clear nights vs. cloudy nights.
The reason CO2 has been targeted is purely for political reasons.
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