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Why must God's forgiveness be on just grounds? - 10/21/2008 8:51:57 AM
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pinopolitan
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What is this just ground? What would result if God justfied sinners without faith in Christ and Him crucified?
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RE: Why must God's forgiveness be on just grounds? - 10/21/2008 9:00:05 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
What would result if God justfied sinners without faith in Christ and Him crucified?
The universe as we know it would cease to exist because God would have to contradict His own character and holiness. He, not theologians, established all the conditions for righteousness and restoration. And He established that restoration can only come through Christ and Him crucified.
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RE: Why must God's forgiveness be on just grounds? - 10/21/2008 1:05:34 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 1223
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From: Lebanon, OR
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"This Jesus is 'the stone that was rejected by you, the builders[and]has become the cornerstone.' There is salvation in no one else for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved."(Act 4:11,12)
Jehovah has no alternative 'plan' for he is absolute, Righteous and Holy. The only Way he accomplished salvation of 'all things, seen and unseen' is presentation of an acceptable sacrifice(of obedience), Christ Jesus, who 'knew no arrogance' and none was found in Him when he presented himself for judgment.
< Message edited by LCannon -- 10/21/2008 1:15:05 PM >
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: Why must God's forgiveness be on just grounds? - 10/21/2008 1:56:48 PM
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Bluethread
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Some believe the Creator has had different plans at different times and since He is the Creator He could do that. However, I see nothing that tells me He has changed His plan from the foundation of the world. He has given us increasing revelation over the years. Unfotunately, in some cases this has just lead to more confusion. It is only reasonable that a personal creator would not send mixed messages, but would provide us with a clear message presented in a way that takes into account how people work.
We are motived by hope and self interest, so He provided us with a promise. He then attached blessings and curses to that promise to motivate us to do what is in our best interests.
We are short sighted and forgetful, so he promised to write these things on our hearts. To help with that, He gave us things to do to remind us of the promise.
We fail and tend to get discouraged, so He made provision for us so we could be brought back into fellowship with Him. This provision helps us focus on His ways and not on the failures of the past.
So, all of this fits together for the purpose of showing us how us to love Him with all our hearts, souls and might, and love our neighbors as ourselves, while providing us encouragement to do so.
If there is another plan that better matches the Creator to His creation, I would be glad to hear it.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Why must God's forgiveness be on just grounds? - 10/29/2008 3:21:48 AM
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VCO
Posts: 114
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pinopolitan
What is this just ground? What would result if God justfied sinners without faith in Christ and Him crucified?
U&U
Isaiah 45:21-23 (NKJV)
21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.
22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.
You either bow to Him as Lord, or you will bow to Him as Judge on Judgement Day.
Deuteronomy 32:3-4 (NKJV)
3 For I proclaim the name of the Lord: Ascribe greatness to our God.
4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
Malachi 3:5-6 (NKJV)
5 And I will come near you for judgment; I will be a swift witness Against sorcerers, Against adulterers, Against perjurers, Against those who exploit wage earners and widows and orphans, And against those who turn away an alien-- Because they do not fear Me," Says the Lord of hosts.
6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.
Revelation 20:10-15 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dr. John MacArthur
"The Sentence
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (REV. 20:14-15)
The evidence is irrefutable, the verdict rendered; judgment will be swiftly carried out. As the sentence is passed, death and Hades (the grave, and the temporary place of punishment for everyone whose name was not found written in the book of life) were thrown into the lake of fire, meaning that they will go out of existence, swallowed up by the final hell. Their inmates, currently suffering in their spirits only, will be united with specially designed resurrection bodies and cast into eternal hell (cf. Matt. 10:28). That final hell, described as the lake of fire, may already exist (cf. Matt. 25:41), but if so, it is currently unoccupied. Its first two occupants, the beast and the false prophet, will not arrive until the end of the Tribulation (19:20).
—MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The"
John 1:12-13 (NKJV)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Colossians 2:6-10 (NIV)
6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him,
7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
God is a Just God, His justice is Perfect, for God to cease to be just, is for God to cease to be God. God's word is TRUTH, therefore God must be true to His WORD. For God to refuse to carry out Justice on an unrepentant sinner, who died still refusing to receive Christ as Lord; would be a sin on God's part, in that He would be making His written Word a lie. Yes God is a Loving God, who provided a way for all to avoid paying the price of Eternity in Hell, which all sin deserves. However, that same Loving God who paid the price for us, also out of Love gave us a free will. And if we die NOT wanting God to be part of your life, YOU GET YOUR WISH for Eternity. It is that freely choosing to receive Christ as Lord, that Glorifies God, and God must be Glorified. There is no Glory if God forces everyone to bow to Him as Lord, NOR is there any Glory if all are forgiven even those who refuse to recognize Christ as Lord of their lives, insisting to remain lord of their own lives. ONLY when we humble ourselves before Him, admitting we deserve his Wrath because we are sinners, and willingly ask Him to come into our hearts and rule our lives as our personal LORD, is God Glorified.
Colossians 2:13-15 (NIV)
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Leviticus 10:3 (NKJV)
3 And Moses said to Aaron, "This is what the Lord spoke, saying: 'By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; And before all the people I must be glorified.' " So Aaron held his peace.
< Message edited by VCO -- 10/29/2008 6:12:33 AM >
_____________________________
Titus 2:13
VCO
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RE: Why must God's forgiveness be on just grounds? - 10/30/2008 9:06:07 PM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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If God justified sinners and forgave them without faith in Christ, he would be breaking the law. He swore by his own name that if he took hold on judgment, he would not relent. One of the ten commandments is that you shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain, which means that you shall not swear falsely by his name. God will not hold us guiltless if we swear falsely. A just and perfect God would be bound by his own laws and rules. He would not be able to hold himself guiltless if he swore by his own name to render judgement to those who hate him (meaning lawbreakers) and broke that vow. Heaven and earth were brought to witness that life and death, blessings and cursings, were laid before us. God gave every man the choice to keep the law. No one ever did, with the exception of Christ.
So to answer your question, "what would happen" ... God would, in essence, make himself a lawbreaker ... a sinner.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Why must God's forgiveness be on just grounds? - 10/31/2008 12:52:30 AM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
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quote:
What is this just ground? What would result if God justfied sinners without faith in Christ and Him crucified?
He wouldn't justify anyone because he couldn't justify them according to his righteous law.
_____________________________
A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Why must God's forgiveness be on just grounds? - 11/1/2008 11:46:08 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pinopolitan
What is this just ground? What would result if God justfied sinners without faith in Christ and Him crucified?
Dear Pino,
As to your question, "Why must God's forgiveness be on just grounds?," it is because God, who is our Creator, is the One who makes the rules in the first place. He decides upon what grounds we will be forgiven. We, as His creatures, must acknowledge that He knows what is best for us, not unlike young children who know that Daddy and Mommy know what is best for them.
This "just grounds" for forgiveness is through Jesus Christ. Why? Because He took the sins of the whole world upon Himself. He is the only One Who bled and died for your sins and mine. He is the only Perfect sacrificial Lamb, without spot or blemish. As the scripture says, "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood, ther is no forgiveness of sins." Only Christ's shed blood is an acceptable sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins, because only He lived a sinless, perfect life.
As to your last question, "What would result if God justified sinners without faith in Christ and Him crucified?", is hypothetical. The operative word there is "if." God has already sent His Son as the Perfect sacrifice for our sins. Your question could almost be compared to asking, "What if God didn't create the world?" or "What if there wasn't a canon of Sacred Scripture?" or "What if there wasn't a devil?" See what I mean.
Even if we speculate as to these "what ifs" it matters very little because what has been done cannot be undone. Hope this helps you sort things out a little better.
In Christ's Love,
HD
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RE: Why must God's forgiveness be on just grounds? - 11/2/2008 1:59:02 AM
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VCO
Posts: 114
Joined: 1/13/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
If God justified sinners and forgave them without faith in Christ, he would be breaking the law. He swore by his own name that if he took hold on judgment, he would not relent. One of the ten commandments is that you shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain, which means that you shall not swear falsely by his name. . . .
So to answer your question, "what would happen" ... God would, in essence, make himself a lawbreaker ... a sinner.
U&U
1 John 2:3-4 (NKJV)
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [ The tense of the verb "keep" here in the original language implies a lifestyle of striving to keep. While it is not the Perfection of our Christian Walk, it certainly is the Direction of our Christian Walk. ]
Revelation 21:8 (NKJV)
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
_____________________________
Titus 2:13
VCO
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RE: Why must God's forgiveness be on just grounds? - 11/2/2008 4:39:52 AM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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Is there a point VCO?
We should keep God's commandments. I don't dispute that for one second. Nevertheless, that has absolutely nothing to do with the OP, or my response, or the section of it you chose to quote.
So what is your point?
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Why must God's forgiveness be on just grounds? - 11/3/2008 5:41:40 AM
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VCO
Posts: 114
Joined: 1/13/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
Is there a point VCO?
We should keep God's commandments. I don't dispute that for one second. Nevertheless, that has absolutely nothing to do with the OP, or my response, or the section of it you chose to quote.
So what is your point?
U&U
YES, I was concurring with you when you said, "God would be bound by his own laws and rules. He would not be able to hold himself guiltless if he swore by his own name to render judgement to those who hate him (meaning lawbreakers) and broke that vow." I used those two Scriptures to show that God has said that ALL of those who have lied about "KNOWING HIM" (that inner personal love relationship to Christ as LORD) will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. AND as you said, for God NOT to keep His own Word, would be sin on His part.
1 John 5:3 (NKJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. [ again the tense here implies a lifestyle of striving to keep, not the perfection of keeping. Faith that does not produce a desire to submit to Christ as LORD, will not save us from God's righteous Judgement, as James clearly pointed out in James 2:14. ]
I tend to think Scripture is quite capable of explaining itself, so I try not to interject my words when Scripture defines itself. I see this time tho, I should have explained why I brought those two verses up. Sorry.
< Message edited by VCO -- 11/3/2008 6:21:49 AM >
_____________________________
Titus 2:13
VCO
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RE: Why must God's forgiveness be on just grounds? - 11/4/2008 6:07:38 AM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
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It's no problem. I just wasn't sure what you were getting at.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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