|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/2/2008 3:10:16 PM
|
|
|
manichunter
Posts: 63
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
|
Is the Body of Christ missing some vital components of the body? Are they in hiding? Where are the apostles, true prophets and true evangelist?
This is a question I have had since I was a little child and no one has given me an adequate answer besides my current pastor. However, I would like to know if others have this same questions or maybe know the answer.
Eph 4: 11-16 11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
I could be wrong, but the body is missing some of its parts. I do not see these offices out front leading the body in the commission. Maybe it is not visible enough for me to see. I have actually looked and researched. Who has God called to these offices?
Apostle (Apostolos)- a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
i.e. Paul, Barnabas, Apollos, Peter, John
2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.
Prophet (Prophetes)- an interpreter of oracles or of other hidden things
i.e. Agabus, Silas, Judas
Ac 21:10 - And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11When he had come to us, he took Paul's belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, "Thus says the Holy Spirit, "So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles."'
Evangelist (Euaggelistes)- a bringer of good tidings
i.e. Timonthy, Titus, Mark
2Ti 4:5 - But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
According to both Greek and Hebrew grammar, the most important subject of a sentence was place first in order. Hence the proper order for the chain of command would be apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teachers. All these denoting offices of specific elders and how they are suppose to function in the Body of Christ.
Since my childhood I have notice a few things. The evangelist and prophets are subordinate to pastors presently. Pastors presently supervise and command prophets and evangelist. In the Scripture, evangelist and prophets supervised and command the pastors. The evangelist and prophets only had to answer to apostles. This is what I mean by true prophets and evangelist, those that are in their proper place in the chain of command.
Timothy and Titus were evangelists under the supervision of the apostle Paul who were ordered to set up pastors and deacons within local churches. They were then commanded to set the local church structure and supervise their initial development. At no time in the Scripture were the evangelist, prophets, and apostles subordinated to the pastors and teachers.
The apostles are almost totally non-existence because no one is willing to step into the call out of cost to self. The ones that have stepped up are not respected for their authority and office. This is the answer I received recently. The body of Christ does not want apostles. This is the one office along with the prophet that could unite the Body of Christ. They would denounce the fractioning of the body of Christ, the lordship exercised by some local pastors, call for a general repentance and rebuke of the worldliness that has sneaked into some churches, and be truly universal in their commission to spread the gospel of the Kingdom of God.
I believe there is still an apostolic and prophetic calling within the body of Christ. However, I also believe that they would be treated much like the Old Testament Prophets by a great sum of saints just as Israel did when those Old Testament prophets tried to operate in their calling and exercise their God ordained authority. The true apostle and prophet would demand too much from some saints who are comfortable in their established traditions, segregated institutions, and compromised lifestyle. Usually when a real prophet of God showed up, they generally had bad news concerning the state of sin, the need of repentance, and God's possible judgment for not obeying the word given to the prophet. Today, bold and committed apostles and prophets would encounter some large degree of opposition, rebellion, and skepticism from some believers.
Something might be out of order with the five-fold ministry not being in operation. Can the Body of Christ be properly equipped and edified for work of ministry and unity without these offices and body functions? Maybe I am wrong.
_____________________________
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/2/2008 3:13:35 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6429
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
The qualifications for the office of Apostle could only be filled by someone who was with Jesus during His incarnation. I'm not aware of any 2,000 year-old men still with us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/2/2008 3:39:43 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 2363
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
I believe there is still an apostolic and prophetic calling within the body of Christ. However, I also believe that they would be treated much like the Old Testament Prophets by a great sum of saints just as Israel did when those Old Testament prophets tried to operate in their calling and exercise their God ordained authority. The true apostle and prophet would demand too much from some saints who are comfortable in their established traditions, segregated institutions, and compromised lifestyle. Usually when a real prophet of God showed up, they generally had bad news concerning the state of sin, the need of repentance, and God's possible judgment for not obeying the word given to the prophet.
If you will notice, we have bunches of people who call themselves prophets, etc. On the average, they preach a gospel of emotion and self-aggrandizement. They are false. IMHO, the next real prophets will not present themselves until the end is very close. As for the apostles, they are long gone.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/2/2008 6:20:07 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6350
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
Ephesians 4:12-13 tells us that the purpose of the five-fold ministry is, "to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."
So, since the body of Christ definitely is not built up to unity in the faith and has not attained to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ, the thinking goes, the offices of apostle and prophet must still be in effect.
However, Ephesians 2:20 informs us that the church is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone."
If the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church, are we still building the foundation?
Hebrews 6:1-3 encourages us to move on from the foundation. Although Jesus Christ is most definitely active in the church today, His role as the cornerstone of the church was completed with His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension.
If the work of the cornerstone is, in that sense, complete, so must the work of the apostles and prophets, who were the foundation, be complete.
What was the role of the apostles and prophets? It was to proclaim God's revelation, to teach the new truth the church would need to grow and thrive.
The apostles and prophets completed this mission. How? By giving us the Word of God.
The Word of God is the completed revelation of God. The Bible contains everything the church needs to know to grow, thrive, and fulfill God's mission (2 Timothy 3:15-16).
The cornerstone work of the apostles and prophets is complete - the ongoing work of the apostles and prophets is manifested in the Holy Spirit speaking through and teaching us God's Word. In that sense, the five-fold ministry is still active.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/2/2008 8:56:54 PM
|
|
|
agent0317
Posts: 1
Joined: 7/2/2008
Status: offline
|
The Apostles, the original are still preaching the gospel in my opinion and we dont need new ones.
The gift of prophecy is not foretelling of the future. 1st Corinthians chpt 14.
It builds up, encourages, edifies the church.
Those who want the title, I think they are power seeking ding bats.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/2/2008 9:07:33 PM
|
|
|
Soxfan
Posts: 1443
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
|
The canon of Scripture is closed. Therefore there is no need for foundational Apostles or Prophets today.
To qualify as a foundational apostle, one must have:
- Seen and been personnally commissioned by the risen Christ
If someone today meets those qualifications, please enlighten me
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/2/2008 9:47:12 PM
|
|
|
ChristopherJ
Posts: 189
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Canada (The True North Strong and Free!)
Status: offline
|
manichunter,
Great discussion idea! I personally am of the opinion that all five ministers listed in Ephesians 4:11-16 are still in operation - pastor, teacher, apostle, prophet and evangelist, and will continue to be so until "we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" and I don't think that will be fully realized until Jesus returns.
Some people say that, because Ephesians 2:20 informs us that the church is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone," that we no longer need apostles or prophets. However, "in the mouth of two or three witnesses let every matter be established." This is a vague Scripture which does not mean that either Apostles or Prophets will be done away with before Christ's second coming. You cannot come to that conclusion without some fancy hermeneutical dancing.
Here are some things to consider...
1. Contrary to popular belief, there were more apostles than just the 12 (plus Saul). Let us not forget:
Barnabas (Acts 14:14) and Andronicus and Junia (Romans 16:7) to name a few.
2. Not all prophets who prophesied in the New Testament dispensation had their prophecies recorded as Scripture. (see Agabus and his daughters in the book of Acts). Just because we believe in apostles (sent ones) and prophets (those who proclaim God's Word) does not mean we take away from the totality or completion of Scripture. All prophecies must line up with the written Word.
Having said all of that, are there false prophets and apostles? Of course there are - the New Testament makes that abundantly clear. However, just because there are fakes does not mean we should discount the real and genuine...
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 9:58:05 AM
|
|
|
SirWintery
Posts: 2079
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
The apostles are almost totally non-existence because no one is willing to step into the call out of cost to self. The ones that have stepped up are not respected for their authority and office. This is the answer I received recently. The body of Christ does not want apostles. This is the one office along with the prophet that could unite the Body of Christ. They would denounce the fractioning of the body of Christ, the lordship exercised by some local pastors, call for a general repentance and rebuke of the worldliness that has sneaked into some churches, and be truly universal in their commission to spread the gospel of the Kingdom of God.
Way too many decide just what you're talking about and start calling themselves an apostle. They "step into the call" of an idea but they're wrong. There are local radio ads right now with a man calling himself an apostle--he sounds like a nice guy--but he's exaggerating his role and position in Christ with that "apostle" talk.
As for prophets we could get a copy of The Elijah List and laugh ourselves silly on prophets. That's what I do with it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
Something might be out of order with the five-fold ministry not being in operation. Can the Body of Christ be properly equipped and edified for work of ministry and unity without these offices and body functions? Maybe I am wrong.
Maybe it's like this---_t-r-u-s-t_ the Lordship of Christ. Trust that His followers don't need a milk bottle and their diapers changed forever. Trust that we can honor God and seek His direction without a Moses-like figurehead up front. Trust that the churches will be places of fellowship among local Christians, whatever their views on doctrine, without dictatorial oversight.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 4:09:37 PM
|
|
|
teclils
Posts: 110
Joined: 5/16/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The qualifications for the office of Apostle could only be filled by someone who was with Jesus during His incarnation. I'm not aware of any 2,000 year-old men still with us.
huh? Paul was not walking with JESUS it was after JESUS died on the cross was Paul a follower...this does not make sense to me...
also what about all the OT prophets ??
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 4:19:30 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6429
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The qualifications for the office of Apostle could only be filled by someone who was with Jesus during His incarnation. I'm not aware of any 2,000 year-old men still with us.
huh? Paul was not walking with JESUS it was after JESUS died on the cross was Paul a follower...this does not make sense to me...
also what about all the OT prophets ??
Then please explain what the 11 original Apostles meant in Acts 1 when they replaced Judas:
"Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us-- beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us--one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
Were they wrong?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 4:22:37 PM
|
|
|
teclils
Posts: 110
Joined: 5/16/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The qualifications for the office of Apostle could only be filled by someone who was with Jesus during His incarnation. I'm not aware of any 2,000 year-old men still with us.
explain Paul
huh? Paul was not walking with JESUS it was after JESUS died on the cross was Paul a follower...this does not make sense to me...
also what about all the OT prophets ??
Then please explain what the 11 original Apostles meant in Acts 1 when they replaced Judas:
"Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us-- beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us--one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
Were they wrong?
explain Paul
< Message edited by teclils -- 7/3/2008 4:39:31 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 4:43:17 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6429
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
explain Paul
No, you asked me to explain my comment. I think Acts 1 is really, really, really clear.
You explain Paul.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 4:47:28 PM
|
|
|
teclils
Posts: 110
Joined: 5/16/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
explain Paul
No, you asked me to explain my comment. I think Acts 1 is really, really, really clear.
You explain Paul.
you don't have to get mean about it...
Paul did not witness the resurrection of JESUS...
Acts 1 22-22 only those that walked with JESUS while HE walked on earth hearing HIS teachings and being taught by HIM could be the ones that could spread the "Good News" to be one of the 12 ...that was their thinking JESUS never said that....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 4:56:15 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6350
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
.that was their thinking JESUS never said that....
wait... just as a side-bar... are you saying that there are things in Scripture that are not inspired? The Bible IS the Word of God for all of mankind, or do you not adhere to that absolute?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 4:58:23 PM
|
|
|
teclils
Posts: 110
Joined: 5/16/2008
Status: offline
|
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
we need the 5 fold ministry to PERFECT the saints , work of the ministry and edifying the BODY of CHRIST..without all of it your have a gap somewhere
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 4:59:26 PM
|
|
|
teclils
Posts: 110
Joined: 5/16/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
.that was their thinking JESUS never said that....
wait... just as a side-bar... are you saying that there are things in Scripture that are not inspired? The Bible IS the Word of God for all of mankind, or do you not adhere to that absolute?
no I did not say that...HOLY SPIRIT directed them ...I may not have explained it to the best ...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 5:07:57 PM
|
|
|
TrustingGod
Posts: 162
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
|
Paul saw the resurrected Jesus when he was blinded by the light that led to his salvation.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 5:10:52 PM
|
|
|
teclils
Posts: 110
Joined: 5/16/2008
Status: offline
|
the scripture said "witnessed with us of HIS Resurrection" not saw the resurrected CHRIST...Paul was not a witness of JESUS yet
definition of Apostle (according to Strongs)
Ajpovstoloß
a delegate, messenger,
one sent forth with orders specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers of Barnabas of Timothy and Silvanus
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 5:33:36 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6429
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
explain Paul
No, you asked me to explain my comment. I think Acts 1 is really, really, really clear.
You explain Paul.
you don't have to get mean about it...
Paul did not witness the resurrection of JESUS...
Acts 1 22-22 only those that walked with JESUS while HE walked on earth hearing HIS teachings and being taught by HIM could be the ones that could spread the "Good News" to be one of the 12 ...that was their thinking JESUS never said that....
Where do you get "mean"? You asked me something that should be common knowledge to a Bible expert.
quote:
that was their thinking JESUS never said that
I once heard a Oneness fellow make the same comment. His theology was pretty messed up all around. He didn't even know the Jesus of scripture and he thought there was a magic formula for words being said at baptism. I hope you haven't fallen off into that snake pit of error too.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 5:36:46 PM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 798
Status: offline
|
quote:
bunches of people
Are these like, grapes, or asparagus? Bunches and bunches and bunches...
I think I like the word
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 5:36:47 PM
|
|
|
teclils
Posts: 110
Joined: 5/16/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
explain Paul
No, you asked me to explain my comment. I think Acts 1 is really, really, really clear.
You explain Paul.
you don't have to get mean about it...
Paul did not witness the resurrection of JESUS...
Acts 1 22-22 only those that walked with JESUS while HE walked on earth hearing HIS teachings and being taught by HIM could be the ones that could spread the "Good News" to be one of the 12 ...that was their thinking JESUS never said that....
Where do you get "mean"? You asked me something that should be common knowledge to a Bible expert.
quote:
that was their thinking JESUS never said that
I once heard a Oneness fellow make the same comment. His theology was pretty messed up all around. He didn't even know the Jesus of scripture and he thought there was a magic formula for words being said at baptism. I hope you haven't fallen off into that snake pit of error too.
I felt your response was snappy..no worries
you mean there isnt specific words ??? LOL just kidding...
I know my JESUS (well HE is everybody's JESUS too) and getting to know HIM more and more everyday 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 5:37:39 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6429
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
definition of Apostle (according to Strongs)
Ajpovstoloß
a delegate, messenger,
one sent forth with orders specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers of Barnabas of Timothy and Silvanus
If you know the difference between the office of Apostle and the general function of apostle, then there's not a problem here.
Basically, any missionary or church planter is an apostle. But there are no men alive today that can claim the office of Apostle. If so, they are liars.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 5:43:46 PM
|
|
|
teclils
Posts: 110
Joined: 5/16/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
definition of Apostle (according to Strongs)
Ajpovstoloß
a delegate, messenger,
one sent forth with orders specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers of Barnabas of Timothy and Silvanus
If you know the difference between the office of Apostle and the general function of apostle, then there's not a problem here.
Basically, any missionary or church planter is an apostle. But there are no men alive today that can claim the office of Apostle. If so, they are liars.
I have not been taught anything on the "office" of Apostle...where is that in scripture?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Where are the Apostles and Prophets - 7/3/2008 7:24:09 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6350
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
I know my JESUS (well HE is everybody's JESUS too)
How is He everyone's Jesus? Many use the name/term 'jesus' and yet are talking about beings and definitions that are foreign from the Jesus revealed in Scripture.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
