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What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/24/2009 7:37:15 AM
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Qtman
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DISCLAIMER: THis thread is not intented to debate whether we achieve(attain) sinless perfection or not. It is intended to define "Sinless Perfection". I hope the thread is allowed to remain because I would really like to hear what everyone thinks the term means. So if you believe in sinless perfection or not here's a place to tell us what you think it means. I will give my thoughts on it later.
Now be nice and just define the term.
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/24/2009 9:49:25 AM
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drmark
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As I understand the term "sinless perfection", it is a synonym for entire sanctification from the Wesleyan doctrinal position which has been popularized by the American Holiness Movement. It was, as I read Wesley's original works, not a term he preferred to use, due to the ease with which many folks might misrepresent his position on the ability to not sin in this life. Judging from the misunderstandings of Christian perfection seen on many Theology threads, Rev Wesley was right on target!
My personal definition of "sinless perfection" is that I have been perfected in Christ's Love so that my sinful nature has been purified and I am always able to not sin, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. This does NOT mean that I am absolutely without any kind of sin since sins of ignorance and human frailties cause me to "miss the mark". However, I have no power over these since they are not willful and deliberate violations of God's known Law. Thus I plead the Blood of Christ to cover them by His grace alone.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/24/2009 11:21:08 AM
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rcjames
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Sinless Perfection would be described as the inability to commit sin.
There is no such thing here on earth, not even Christ when He was here.
Sinless Perfection is not "Entire Sanctification".
Entire Sanctification is a point in a Believers life where thier faith in the promises of God, the Grace of God, the Sacrifice of Christ, and the ministry of the Holy Spirit has matured to a point where they understand that they can choose to not sin. (but the ability to sin is still there).
This verse is a cronerstone in Entire Sanctification;
(1Co 10:13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
And believing that verse to be true shows a Believer that they can choose the way to escape the temptation and not sin.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/24/2009 11:33:49 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Sinless Perfection would be described as the inability to commit sin.
There is no such thing here on earth, not even Christ when He was here.
Sinless Perfection is not "Entire Sanctification". I respectfully disagree, Pastor, although it is more a matter of semantics than substance. I would call the inability to commit sin "perfect (or absolute) sinlessness". As far as I know from my non-professional reading on the subject, the term "sinless perfection" is widely used in American Holiness circles to describe "entire sanctification" in the Wesleyan tradition, although Wesley did not prefer the term himself.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/24/2009 1:26:39 PM
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frankman
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Sinless Perfection is to be clothed in the garments of the righteousness of God.
In Zechariah Chapter 3 we meet a High Priest by the name of Jushua. Now he was standing before the angel of the Lord and was being accused by Satan for coming before God Almighty in his own entirely sanctified clothes, which amounted to nothing but filthy clothes in God`s eyes. These filthy clothes represented his own best afford to live a good religious life in order to appease God.  Boy; did Satan ever have fun accusing Joshua before God for wearing those dirty garments, for Satan also could see those clothes of Joshua`s. However the angel seeing Satan was right about Joshua`s garments being as filthy rags and therefore ordered those standing with Joshua to "Take off his filthy clothes" in Zech.3:4. Then the angel continues to say to Joshua in verse 4 "See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you."
Zech.3:1-10 is a vision of a High Priest by the name of Joshua representing us standing before God wearing nothing but our filthy disgusting clothes. Then it goes on to tell us how God has forgiven our sins by stripping them away and banishing them, thus leaving us naked. However God doesn`t leave any of us naked before Him after our sins are forgiven. God provides a garment for us provided by God Himself.
Now the garment of God represents God`s righteousness. We are declared righteous by God Himself. God does not only declare us righteous. He imputes the righteousness of Christ to us. We have become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor.5:21 states "God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." This is a righteousness that is not ours obtained by a sinless perfect lifestyle (which isn`t even possible in the eyes of a Holy God and from God`s point of view) while we`re still breathing air here on earth, but comes only through faith in Jesus as Phil.3:9 states. "and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ- the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith."
Justified means your forgiven and declared righteous by being dressed by God in the righteousness of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
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"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/24/2009 1:29:42 PM
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rwe2156
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Sinless Perfection would be described as the inability to commit sin.
There is no such thing here on earth, not even Christ when He was here.
Sinless Perfection is not "Entire Sanctification".
Entire Sanctification is a point in a Believers life where thier faith in the promises of God, the Grace of God, the Sacrifice of Christ, and the ministry of the Holy Spirit has matured to a point where they understand that they can choose to not sin. (but the ability to sin is still there).
This verse is a cronerstone in Entire Sanctification;
(1Co 10:13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
And believing that verse to be true shows a Believer that they can choose the way to escape the temptation and not sin.
Thanks
RC
Thank you, pastor!
As long as their is one Adam of flesh in us, we WILL sin.
I fear drmark is deceived by a works based salvation.
_____________________________
Fiction: There is more than one way to be saved.
Fact: There is more than one way to understand
how we were saved.
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/24/2009 3:08:57 PM
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drmark
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quote:
As long as their is one Adam of flesh in us, we WILL sin.
I fear drmark is deceived by a works based salvation. rwe, I'm pretty sure that Qtman specifically stated this thread is not designed to debate the attainability of "sinless perfection" much less to accuse others of "being deceived". So please don't go there, especially since I have NEVER once said in >4000 posts that anyone's salvation (or sanctifcation) is based on works!
quote:
Also I would not think that drmark is "deceived", I believe he is Nazarene, and IMHO they have a pretty good handle on holiness Thank you, Brother James, for your kind words. Biblical holiness is always by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, and never by anything that we perform, achieve, or accomplish on our own!
Let me do a little research on the American Holiness Movement before I respond to your request.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/24/2009 8:01:57 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Let me do a little research on the American Holiness Movement before I respond to your request. Well RC, after almost two hours of "googling", I have to say that it appears I have overstated the usage of "sinless perfection" in the American Holiness Movement. There were a handful of late-19th century evangelists and theologians who occasionally preached a doctrine of "sinless perfection" as a result of their understanding of entire sanctification, but the vast majority who stayed true to the Wesleyan tradition seemed to avoid the term because of its connotation of absolute impeccability. Even Charles Finney (of whom I am NO champion!) in his Systematic Theology stated the following:
quote:
SINLESS PERFECTION: [also called PERFECTIONISM] a theological view that holds that a believer can "arrive" at a state in which (1.) his walk in obedience and holiness is not dependant on the Grace of God, and that (2.) he no longer has the ability to sin. Finney rejected this view entirely.
I have said repeatedly that I do not now, nor ever have, believe that any Christian can lose her/his ability to sin in this world, including the ability to willfully disobey. As you hinted on another thread, RC, even Jesus had the ability to succumb to temptation while here on Earth. But I have always tried to distinguish the inability to sin as "perfect (absolute) sinlessness" from the ability to not sin as "sinless perfection". Since so many posting here in these Theology threads seem confused by this terminology, I think I will minimize my usage in future discussions of holiness doctrine and Christian perfection.
Thanks for holding me accountable, brother!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/24/2009 10:26:20 PM
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drmark
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Umm, I want to say I'm a little embarrassed here. It was merely a statement of my research findings and no grandiose display of humility as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for everyone's compliments and I will try not to let them alter my sinless (I mean, Christian) perfection...
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/25/2009 9:40:09 AM
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McFatty
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When someone says "sinless perfection", it means to me living one's whole life (from the moment of salvation and spiritual rebirth) without ever once doing any single act that falls even a speck short of God's perfect standard. "Sinless perfection" is going through life where every single thing one does is 100% righteous and never falls below the bar set by God by any measure.
If you fall short of this standard by any distance, you've sinned and are not perfect, and as long as you repent, are again on the same blood-washed righteous level as every other saved person who has sinned and repented. What was the number? 70 x 7 times forgiven? One time sinning and 490 times committing the same sin are equal, if one repents after each time.
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"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/25/2009 9:49:38 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Umm, I want to say I'm a little embarrassed here. It was merely a statement of my research findings and no grandiose display of humility as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for everyone's compliments and I will try not to let them alter my sinless (I mean, Christian) perfection...
Don't be embarrassed for your Christian attitude and actions drmark, you and I have had many productive discussions on the fourms and by PM, and I for one appreciate you sincerity and honesty.
Whenever folks start discussing "Stopping sinning", "Complete Sanctification", or even sanctification two things always come up. Sinless perfection is always thrown in (which IMHO alters the discussion), and then the next thing is someone asking those of the Holiness persuasion if they have ever committed one little bittly sin of some sort or another.
Both of these avenues are nothing but diversion from a very important dixcussion; obedience to Christ.
Qtman, in seeking a definition for 'Sinless Perfection", take a great step forward to a deeper discussion of Holiness in the life of a Believer. And when it all boils down to the end of the discussions, it is not if I ever sin, or if drmark has ever sinned, or if any other Christian has ever sinned; it is about what Scriptures says about whether we should be sinning, and what Scripture says about whether we can live the live that that same Scripture calls us to live.
After over 46 years as a Holiness minister, I have come to the conclusion that God calls in Scripture for us to live a Holy and humble life, and if God has not made provisions for us to be able to do what He has called us to do; well that would just be dumb or crues at the very least. And we do not serve a dumb, nor cruel God.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/25/2009 9:50:10 AM
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drmark
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quote:
He further expounds and says it is not a permanent state but that we must continue to pray for guidance and forgiveness. Qtman, I found this comment in your post #3 to be somewhat provocative. Without getting into an OSAS debate, what do you think Wesley and other Holiness proponents meant by "not a permanent state"? Is our ability to choose to not sin lifelong, if we abide in Christ and use His Love to obey God fully? That's certainly how I read 1 John 3:4-10!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/25/2009 10:36:03 AM
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Catholicandloveit
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Qtman -
Thanks for starting this thread.
Mary
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Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/25/2009 1:09:43 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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The only thing I know about sinless perfection, QT, is that I have not achieved it.
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While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/25/2009 3:25:21 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
The only thing I know about sinless perfection, QT, is that I have not achieved it.
And under an honest definition you will not achieve it this side of Heaven, but as a Christian you can certainly choose not to sin.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/25/2009 3:58:32 PM
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drmark
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quote:
The only thing I know about sinless perfection, QT, is that I have not achieved it. Absolutely none of us can or will ever "achieve" sinless perfection however the term is used in Holiness circles. God's grace and power have nothing to do with our abilities or performance. It's a subtle, but significant, point to avoid any hint of a self-centered capacity when discussing Christian perfection. God achieves holiness for us - we merely follow His guidance and empowerment to live holy every day.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/25/2009 4:59:44 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
He further expounds and says it is not a permanent state but that we must continue to pray for guidance and forgiveness. Qtman, I found this comment in your post #3 to be somewhat provocative. Without getting into an OSAS debate, what do you think Wesley and other Holiness proponents meant by "not a permanent state"? Is our ability to choose to not sin lifelong, if we abide in Christ and use His Love to obey God fully? That's certainly how I read 1 John 3:4-10!
I think is was Wesley's way of saying, as I believe you have , that man will not reach a "perfectly sinless" state. In other words Christian Perfection is something we have moment to moment. The perfectly sinlessness you have talked about and that I believe Wesley alluded to is something we attain when we exchange this mortal life for the Glorified life in eternity. He was saying we should pray constantly in order to maintain this Christian Perfection. BTW I don't think it had anything to do with OSAS.
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Aufmerksamkeit: Es ist verboten, damit Qtman mit stummen Köpfen spricht.
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/25/2009 5:03:39 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
Qtman, in seeking a definition for 'Sinless Perfection", take a great step forward to a deeper discussion of Holiness in the life of a Believer. And when it all boils down to the end of the discussions, it is not if I ever sin, or if drmark has ever sinned, or if any other Christian has ever sinned; it is about what Scriptures says about whether we should be sinning, and what Scripture says about whether we can live the live that that same Scripture calls us to live.
Brother RC.
I think I have and had a pretty good grasp of the term. I started this thread because I had come to believe what DrMark was calling Sinnless Perfection was what Wesley called Christian Perfection. I have read many of DrMark's post regarding this subject. As it turns out I think my assumption about his meaning of the term is or at least appears to be correct. I thought I would facilitate the debate in the Can Christians stop sinning thread if everyone gave their definition.
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Aufmerksamkeit: Es ist verboten, damit Qtman mit stummen Köpfen spricht.
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RE: What is "Sinless Perfection" - 10/25/2009 6:32:09 PM
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drmark
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quote:
In other words Christian Perfection is something we have moment to moment. I can accept that. But as I get older and see more sanctified Believers live out their perfection, I am struck by how effortless it comes to those who are growing in grace, not only moment to moment, but hour to hour and day to day and month to month and year to year!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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