How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discovering an alien culture affect religious thought?
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How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discovering ... - 11/14/2009 10:45:17 PM
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StephenJ
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Wow a StephenJ thread in the science forum that isn't about Y.E creationism vs. evolution, mark this date you may want to tell your children about it one day.
I was recently thinking about Giordano Bruno the 16th century Italian who many believe was killed by the inqusition for advocating a view of the solar system that was heliocentric, and for advocating that other stars had worlds (as well as some theological/mystical views.)
Nowadays we know that Bruno was right in some of his scientific views as we now understand that others stars do have planets, and it's not unreasonable that scientest might soon find a planet similar to Earth.
How would scientest finding one or more alien cultures (specifically technological ones) effect the theological view of man as a unique creation? As the only creature made in God's image.
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/15/2009 8:48:59 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
How would scientest finding one or more alien cultures (specifically technological ones) effect the theological view of man as a unique creation? As the only creature made in God's image.
Gotta Scripture for earthly man being the only Creature that God made in His image?
It would not affect my theological views at all, for I figure that God is under no restraints to reveal to us what he may or may not have done elsewhere in the universt that He created.
Thanks
RC
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/15/2009 10:57:16 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Gotta Scripture for earthly man being the only Creature that God made in His image? No, but there is also no Scripture that even remotely suggests God created any other living organisms in His Image anywhere else in His universe.
quote:
It would not affect my theological views at all, for I figure that God is under no restraints to reveal to us what he may or may not have done elsewhere in the universt that He created. However, given the amazing detail in which God did reveal regarding His creation here on earth, I find it highly unlikely that He created other ensouled living beings elsewhere in the universe. I also seriously doubt that we would ever find them (or they find us) before this world is destroyed.
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/16/2009 10:05:30 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Gotta Scripture for earthly man being the only Creature that God made in His image? No, but there is also no Scripture that even remotely suggests God created any other living organisms in His Image anywhere else in His universe.
quote:
It would not affect my theological views at all, for I figure that God is under no restraints to reveal to us what he may or may not have done elsewhere in the universt that He created. However, given the amazing detail in which God did reveal regarding His creation here on earth, I find it highly unlikely that He created other ensouled living beings elsewhere in the universe. I also seriously doubt that we would ever find them (or they find us) before this world is destroyed.
I guess that we will just have to wait to find out.
Of course I do not have any idea if he did or not, just that God is soveriign and even though he revealed massive amounts of information that is pertinant to our little nitch of the universe; why would he feel compelled to tell us about the rest of his work elsewhere?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/16/2009 10:20:09 AM
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drmark
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quote:
why would he feel compelled to tell us about the rest of his work elsewhere? Perhaps "compelled" is a strong word. I do wonder about God's first command to mankind regarding to fill the earth and have dominion over living creatures. Does this include exploration of space and interaction with aliens (if they exist) since God has apparently allowed mankind to develop the technology to accomplish such activities? How would we know if an "alien race" falls under the purview of Genesis 1:28 if He did not tell us about them?
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/16/2009 12:52:38 PM
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tacitus
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quote:
How would scientest finding one or more alien cultures (specifically technological ones) effect the theological view of man as a unique creation? As the only creature made in God's image.
We've sort of touched on this in previous threads about encountering aliens, though in more general terms about its impact on religion.
Of course, the first point is that there is a difference between arguing whether or not that could happen -- i.e. an alien encounter -- and what would happen should such an alien encounter happen.
If SETI did discover evidence of other intelligent species then it's likely that Christians will have one of three different reactions:
1. Denial
2. Rationalization
3. Disillusion
Those who most strongly believe that human beings are the only created beings endowed with a soul will likely seek to deny the evidence, declaring it to be misinterpreted or a conspiracy to attack Christianity, or even a spiritual attack by demonic beings (yes, someone on this forum in the past has stated that would have to be his conclusion).
Believers less wedded to a strict Genesis narrative as the all encompassing creation story will have very little difficultly in adjusting to the new reality. Indeed, I suspect that the Christian hierarchy, from the Pope to the pastoral leaders of the loosest church alliances would be falling over themselves to be the first to pronounce that evidence of aliens does not run counter to God's purpose for human kind. I think the vast majority of Christians would fall into this category.
Finally there will be some who either cannot reconcile their beliefs with the existence of aliens or who decide they don't want to. The former will likely be those brought up in the conservative tradition -- fundamentalists and Biblical literalists for whom the existence of aliens falsifies the Bible so they abandon their faith. (I don't believe many will do that, but some will.) The latter will likely be from the liberal side of Christianity who become drawn away by some new religious belief system that arises in the light of the existence of aliens. Again it won't be many, but there will be some.
In the end, I see the discovery of aliens (at a distance) having very little impact on the religious beliefs of Christians (or of any faith in fact). As RC's comments nicely illustrate, there is plenty of room to accommodate the existence of aliens into a Biblical view of creation, and even many of those who do not believe that way today (in the absence of evidence of aliens) would come around should that day ever arise.
So, in the end, such a discovery would be pretty much a non-event in terms of the religious life of human beings on Earth. A few cults will no doubt form, and some people will reject their faith, and perhaps others will find it, but overall the status quo will prevail.
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/18/2009 4:44:34 PM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, tacitus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
quote:
How would scientest finding one or more alien cultures (specifically technological ones) effect the theological view of man as a unique creation? As the only creature made in God's image.
We've sort of touched on this in previous threads about encountering aliens, though in more general terms about its impact on religion.
Of course, the first point is that there is a difference between arguing whether or not that could happen -- i.e. an alien encounter -- and what would happen should such an alien encounter happen.
If SETI did discover evidence of other intelligent species then it's likely that Christians will have one of three different reactions:
1. Denial
2. Rationalization
3. Disillusion
Those who most strongly believe that human beings are the only created beings endowed with a soul will likely seek to deny the evidence, declaring it to be misinterpreted or a conspiracy to attack Christianity, or even a spiritual attack by demonic beings (yes, someone on this forum in the past has stated that would have to be his conclusion).
Believers less wedded to a strict Genesis narrative as the all encompassing creation story will have very little difficultly in adjusting to the new reality. Indeed, I suspect that the Christian hierarchy, from the Pope to the pastoral leaders of the loosest church alliances would be falling over themselves to be the first to pronounce that evidence of aliens does not run counter to God's purpose for human kind. I think the vast majority of Christians would fall into this category.
Finally there will be some who either cannot reconcile their beliefs with the existence of aliens or who decide they don't want to. The former will likely be those brought up in the conservative tradition -- fundamentalists and Biblical literalists for whom the existence of aliens falsifies the Bible so they abandon their faith. (I don't believe many will do that, but some will.) The latter will likely be from the liberal side of Christianity who become drawn away by some new religious belief system that arises in the light of the existence of aliens. Again it won't be many, but there will be some.
In the end, I see the discovery of aliens (at a distance) having very little impact on the religious beliefs of Christians (or of any faith in fact). As RC's comments nicely illustrate, there is plenty of room to accommodate the existence of aliens into a Biblical view of creation, and even many of those who do not believe that way today (in the absence of evidence of aliens) would come around should that day ever arise.
So, in the end, such a discovery would be pretty much a non-event in terms of the religious life of human beings on Earth. A few cults will no doubt form, and some people will reject their faith, and perhaps others will find it, but overall the status quo will prevail.
I can see yet a fourth scenario. As brother rcjames has already said, there will be a group whose belief structure will be UNAFFECTED because what they believe about the Bible comes directly FROM the Bible, which neither speaks pro or con about such alien races! The truth is that the Bible was written for human beings on this planet we call "Earth." And, as such, we are not privy to anything else God may do in His universe nor to any other beings He may choose to create!
In my opinion, however, it's a pretty big "IF" to say that "SETI may discover evidence of other intelligent species." We are barely able to detect distant stars that MAY have planets because of "wobble" in relationship to a companion star (strictly found ONLY by means of radio telescopes).
It's like general relativity: it may be theoretically POSSIBLE but the IMPROBABILITY far, FAR, FAR outweighs the possibility.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/18/2009 8:18:57 PM
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AnalystsAreUs
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You should watch the Privileged Planet Video on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnWyPIzTOTw
No wonder congress pulled S.E.T.I's funding.
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/18/2009 10:17:06 PM
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navyblueret
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AnalystsAreUs
You should watch the Privileged Planet Video on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnWyPIzTOTw
No wonder congress pulled S.E.T.I's funding.
Excellent group of Videos. Well done, with solid scientific evedenciary argument.
In Messiah. Arley
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Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/19/2009 12:24:23 AM
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tacitus
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quote:
I can see yet a fourth scenario. As brother rcjames has already said, there will be a group whose belief structure will be UNAFFECTED
In other words they will accommodate and rationalize the existence of aliens with their faith. That maybe anything from a shrug (as in RC's case) to a long and deep discussion of all kinds of theological issues. Scenario two.
quote:
In my opinion, however, it's a pretty big "IF" to say that "SETI may discover evidence of other intelligent species." We are barely able to detect distant stars that MAY have planets because of "wobble" in relationship to a companion star (strictly found ONLY by means of radio telescopes).
It's like general relativity: it may be theoretically POSSIBLE but the IMPROBABILITY far, FAR, FAR outweighs the possibility.
Of course it's a pretty big"IF." I would be amazed if we found any evidence within our lifetime that there intelligent life on another planet. However, there is a good chance that within the next 25-50 years we will be able to study the atmospheres of multiple Earth-like planets and look for evidence that there is some kind of life on them (though likely not intelligent civilizations). The Kepler mission will give us a good sampling of how many Earth-like planets there are (Earth sized planets in the habitable zone of a star) within the next three years. That's a good start, even though we will probably never be able to study those planets directly.
BTW: The wobbles are detected at infra-red and visible wavelengths, not radio. And several missions, like Kepler and COROT are capable of detecting planets transiting the sun, which is a completely different method.
As for SETI -- it will always be a long shot, but in the absence of good scientific evidence to the contrary (and no, the privileged planet hypothesis is not a compelling argument) but the given the low cost of the program, and the fact that it is all privately funded by people who are interested in the program, there is no reason not to continue looking. A negative finding is still a valid scientific result. The SETI program has also been responsible for innovations in signal processing across thousands of radio bands at once and in the use of distributed processing of data across the Internet (SETI@Home), both of which have been applied successfully to other fields of study.
Finally, even the dedicated SETI equipment (the Allen Telescope Array) is being used jointly by other researchers who have nothing to do with SETI, so even if SETI is a complete bust, much will have been gained scientifically from its existence.
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/19/2009 1:08:46 AM
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upNORTder
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Gotta Scripture for earthly man being the only Creature that God made in His image? No, but there is also no Scripture that even remotely suggests God created any other living organisms in His Image anywhere else in His universe.
quote:
It would not affect my theological views at all, for I figure that God is under no restraints to reveal to us what he may or may not have done elsewhere in the universt that He created. However, given the amazing detail in which God did reveal regarding His creation here on earth, I find it highly unlikely that He created other ensouled living beings elsewhere in the universe. I also seriously doubt that we would ever find them (or they find us) before this world is destroyed.
John 10:16 (King James Version)
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd
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The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/19/2009 3:41:52 AM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
If SETI did discover evidence of other intelligent species then it's likely that Christians will have one of three different reactions:
1. Denial
2. Rationalization
3. Disillusion
Those who most strongly believe that human beings are the only created beings endowed with a soul will likely seek to deny the evidence, declaring it to be misinterpreted or a conspiracy to attack Christianity, or even a spiritual attack by demonic beings (yes, someone on this forum in the past has stated that would have to be his conclusion).
There are actually some Christians who I've had conversations with who believe this. I'm personally open to it.
_____________________________
Rock on!
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/19/2009 8:29:53 AM
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drmark
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quote:
John 10:16 (King James Version)
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd A very important prophecy of Christianity spreading throughout the Gentile world. It has nothing to do with aliens!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/21/2009 3:48:17 AM
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tacitus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
Those who most strongly believe that human beings are the only created beings endowed with a soul will likely seek to deny the evidence, declaring it to be misinterpreted or a conspiracy to attack Christianity, or even a spiritual attack by demonic beings (yes, someone on this forum in the past has stated that would have to be his conclusion).
There are actually some Christians who I've had conversations with who believe this. I'm personally open to it.
I suspect there's a big difference between a speculative exercise like this one, and the reality of actually discovering intelligent alien life. I am sure there will be some, as you say, who can only believe it's a demonic trick, but they will be very few compared to those who will find no conflict with their faith concerning the existing of natural living alien beings. Some believers will probably claim they were sent by God.
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/21/2009 8:10:44 AM
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Ohioman1972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
Those who most strongly believe that human beings are the only created beings endowed with a soul will likely seek to deny the evidence, declaring it to be misinterpreted or a conspiracy to attack Christianity, or even a spiritual attack by demonic beings (yes, someone on this forum in the past has stated that would have to be his conclusion).
There are actually some Christians who I've had conversations with who believe this. I'm personally open to it.
I suspect there's a big difference between a speculative exercise like this one, and the reality of actually discovering intelligent alien life. I am sure there will be some, as you say, who can only believe it's a demonic trick, but they will be very few compared to those who will find no conflict with their faith concerning the existing of natural living alien beings. Some believers will probably claim they were sent by God.
It may be similar to what a group of atheist scientists would use as an explaination of all the missing Christians and children after the Rapture?
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/24/2009 11:50:50 AM
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demolay
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As I said on our last SETI thread, I believe Extra Terestrial Intelligence has already been discovered; when Christ came to Earth. And those who were and are perishing have had 1 of several reactions:
1. Denial - of who He was or, for some, even that He ever came and lived among us.
2. Rationalization - that there must be "natural" explanations for his reported miracles.
3. Salvation - abandonment of their delusions about God and embrace of Truth
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/25/2009 1:36:51 PM
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tacitus
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Fair enough, but that's not what this thread is about.
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 11/25/2009 2:06:04 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
Fair enough, but that's not what this thread is about.
Exactly, I'm refering to technological, non-supernatural, beings who just happen to be from some as of yet unknown exo-planet.
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 12/23/2009 2:11:50 AM
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agapeflight
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
Wow a StephenJ thread in the science forum that isn't about Y.E creationism vs. evolution, mark this date you may want to tell your children about it one day.
I was recently thinking about Giordano Bruno the 16th century Italian who many believe was killed by the inqusition for advocating a view of the solar system that was heliocentric, and for advocating that other stars had worlds (as well as some theological/mystical views.)
Nowadays we know that Bruno was right in some of his scientific views as we now understand that others stars do have planets, and it's not unreasonable that scientest might soon find a planet similar to Earth.
How would scientest finding one or more alien cultures (specifically technological ones) effect the theological view of man as a unique creation? As the only creature made in God's image.
This is hypothetical and therefore probably not worth alot of effort. The fact is that exoplanets are known to exist, and from that we can infer that there are probably millions of earth-like planets out there. I have heard that they might be able to determine that life similar to waht we have here is present by the elements found in the atmosphere but I doubt we will ever have that kind of evidence. We are talking about planets that would be probably well over 15 light years away so at current technology it would take many human lifetimes to get a probe close enough to even send us back the data we need to confirm life. Now the chances of a alien intelligence is even smaller.
So let us assume God made beings elsewhere that were considered living souls by Him. There is still only one sacrifice of Jesus Christ for all sin. so if they were fallen, it would be that gospel which must be preached to them. If they were not fallen one might consider them similar to faithful angels. A clearl parallel might exist with the notions that angels and demons are in fact aliens. Von Doniken played with idea and was first praised and then vilified.. Whatever. I personally believe that when we look out into a universe filled with possibly inhabitable planets what we see if the future of humanity. Is it possible that God did make us first and that somehow in His plan for eternity redeemed humans gain access to the entire universe for some reason that only He knows? My point is not to blow smoke, but rather to bring us back to shakespeare at least. 'There are many more things in heaven and earth Horatio, than can be explained by your science.'
BTW I have an MS in environmental science and policy and a BS in mathematics with a physics minor, so that is where I get my confidence in assessing science as being limited though very useful. Consider Godel and what his finding imply about our ability to figure everything out using science. If you accept that you are on the doorstep of a great journey. Jesus if the One man! I'm not lying.
Also, before you chide me about typos just remember those who show mercy find mercy. ;-)
God bless.
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 12/26/2009 11:55:36 AM
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demolay
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=will-e-t-look-like-us
Check out this article. I know that Richard Dawkins is in it (boooo, hisssss say the creationist) but it's interesting.
Well, I guess I found one ironic truth from Carl Sagan in the article:
quote:
I strongly suspect that we are blinded by Protagoras’ bias (“Man is the measure of all things”) when we project ourselves into the alien Other.
The entire hope of SETI is that man CAN be the measure of all things, rather than having to submit to the Word of God.
I tell you what, evolutionists are really confused puppies. On the one hand, they'll say evolution is "blind" with no direction, no purpose (The Blind Watchmaker), but on the other talk about the "inevitable" outcome of intelligence. If evolved intelligence is inevitable, then evolution has a direction. Period. Which is it?
And how would we know if a SETI signal was intelligent? Perhaps if the signal included instructions on how to build a complex machine, like in Sagan's "Contact", we could be sure it came from intelligence? But wait, we already found that in DNA, and that was deemed "unintelligent", so perhaps not. 
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 12/26/2009 1:42:37 PM
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litfire2000
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I'm one of those silly guys who find it hard to believe that God created the entire universe just to populate one tiny little planet.
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 12/26/2009 10:18:31 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephenJ
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=will-e-t-look-like-us
Check out this article. I know that Richard Dawkins is in it (boooo, hisssss say the creationist) but it's interesting.
Well, I guess I found one ironic truth from Carl Sagan in the article:
quote:
I strongly suspect that we are blinded by Protagoras’ bias (“Man is the measure of all things”) when we project ourselves into the alien Other.
The entire hope of SETI is that man CAN be the measure of all things, rather than having to submit to the Word of God.
I tell you what, evolutionists are really confused puppies. On the one hand, they'll say evolution is "blind" with no direction, no purpose (The Blind Watchmaker), but on the other talk about the "inevitable" outcome of intelligence. If evolved intelligence is inevitable, then evolution has a direction. Period. Which is it?
And how would we know if a SETI signal was intelligent? Perhaps if the signal included instructions on how to build a complex machine, like in Sagan's "Contact", we could be sure it came from intelligence? But wait, we already found that in DNA, and that was deemed "unintelligent", so perhaps not.
Not every evolutionist believes that intelligence is inevitable, some believe that it only arises under certain conditions. This is evidenced by the fact that many species have come on gone through Earth's history and only humans have developed rational intelligence.
Even if we find out that these isn't another technological species, we've still increased our knowledge of the cosmos. So I still think SETI counts as legit science.
_____________________________
Rock on!
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 12/27/2009 8:42:26 AM
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drmark
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quote:
So I still think SETI counts as legit science. Indeed, SETI is based on ID theory which also is "legit science"!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: How would S.E.T.I (or other similar group) discover... - 12/31/2009 1:09:03 PM
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tacitus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
So I still think SETI counts as legit science. Indeed, SETI is based on ID theory which also is "legit science"!
SETI is the science of the detection of artificial signals by other, postulated naturalistic beings tat have been generated by means already well known to science.
"ID theory" is the assumption that you can detect the artificial construction of biological systems by a supernatural entity about which/whom you can assume nothing and that doesn't even have to obey any natural laws of the Universe.
Slight difference really.
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