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How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 10:23:00 AM
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asfaloth
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Hi
An atheist said to me yesterday: "In the Bible, it says God told Abraham to kill his son Isaac as a sacrifice to his glory. A loving God would not do that". I, as a Christian could not come up with anything for an answer. I could not justify being Christian in spite of the fact that God did that. Jahve was a loving God in the Old Testament too, wasn't he??
I don't think I've fully realized how painful this was for Abraham. Has anyone managed to come terms with this? Then, please, help put my mind and soul at ease...
God bless you!
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 10:27:53 AM
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LivingParadox
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That is a huge thing for God to ask of someone...
if you read to the end of the story, God provided alternative sacrifice....HIS OWN SON, JESUS. This story foreshadows what was already coming. It's only when we walk in Abraham's shoes we realize what God did, completely.
< Message edited by LivingParadox -- 11/15/2009 10:34:31 AM >
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 11:25:39 AM
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asfaloth
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Yes, I know :) And I meant that I realized how painful it must have been for Abraham. Abraham was allowed to prove to himself that he trusted God completely, and maybe that was needed as he was to be father to all of Israel, but still it's very harsh...
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 12:20:19 PM
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Kat_D
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“8 For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts." -Isaiah 55
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~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 1:15:21 PM
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armydude
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People usually misunderstand what love actually is. Godly love seeks the best for the person that is loved. Would it have been better for Abraham to keep his son the way things were or for him to come to a complete understanding that God was able to do what He had promised?
We cannot interpret God's love by our own since His is perfect and ours is not.
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Imagine what we could do if we didn't spend so much time focusing on what we can't do.
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 2:34:19 PM
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bravjim
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One of the most important things that you must remember when thinking about this story is that God had already told Abraham that His anointed line would come through Isaac. Abraham trusted God at His word, and even told Isaac that God would provide when Isaac asked about what they were going to sacrifice. By this point in time, God and Abraham had a very long track record together. Take the time to go back to chapter 11 and reread the story of Abraham, and the promises God made to Him. He had been promised that he would become a great nation, and that the whole world would be blessed because of Him. Later, God told him in chapter 15 that his descendants would be like the stars because of their numbers. In chapter 17, the whole key to Abraham's willingness to obey God when asked to sacrifice Isaac, God makes a new covenant with Abraham and promises him that Sarah will bear him a son and that God would establish His covenant with him (Isaac) forever. That is why Abraham knew, in his heart of hearts, that God would either provide a sacrifice or make everything alright in the end. He had God's word on the matter.
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I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 5:31:42 PM
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Liveloved
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How? Because He is God.
It really is that simple.
If we believe what we say about God, then what He asks is good and for our good. ALWAYS.
So then the question does not even need to be asked.
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 7:33:20 PM
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dbark
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I'm a Christian and I do not find that answer satisfying in any way - how much less so would that satisfy a non-believer? I don't think God calls us to that sort of blind allegiance to Him or to anything. The question does need to be asked because it goes towards a fundamental basic understanding of who God is and what kind of being is this God we serve?
If God asks us to do something we believe to be immoral, we have to question either our morality or God's, and if it is something like killing your child with a knife - it's a pretty reasonable question, I think.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
How? Because He is God.
It really is that simple.
If we believe what we say about God, then what He asks is good and for our good. ALWAYS.
So then the question does not even need to be asked.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 8:50:07 PM
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manhattan42
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God's request of Abraham was a test of Abraham's faith that not only was God always good,loving and merciful...but that God was the God of Life and the Resurrection...and True to honor His promise to Abraham that all nations would be blessed through his 'seed'.
That 'seed' was not Isaac.... but Jesus...the eventual and mutual descendant of both Abraham and God Himself.
The sacrifice request of Isaac, therefore, was but a confirmation by God to Abraham that the Covenenant He declared between them would be honored in life and in death and for eternity....and that the Real Sacrifical Lamb was yet to come:
Jesus Christ, the Son of Abraham and God.
Sacrificed for our sins on His Altar.
Resurrected to Eternal Life by His obedience.
< Message edited by manhattan42 -- 11/15/2009 8:57:32 PM >
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 10:00:08 PM
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LivingParadox
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I think this example speaks of Abraham's great faith (which was counted as rigtheousness before the Lamb had come)
What would you have done? When you have something that is of great value to you are you willing to lay it on the alter for God? I think that was the real test -- is there anything in your life that you wouldn't give up for God. I think this is often where many stumble.
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You're dangerous 'cause you're honest ~U2
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 10:12:36 PM
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dbark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
I think this example speaks of Abraham's great faith (which was counted as rigtheousness before the Lamb had come)
What would you have done? When you have something that is of great value to you are you willing to lay it on the alter for God? I think that was the real test -- is there anything in your life that you wouldn't give up for God. I think this is often where many stumble.
I think this is a good question - "what would you have done?".
If I felt that God was asking me to kill my daughter as a sacrifice to Him or as a test of faith, I'd check myself into a mental institution. I'm serious. And, I have a very difficult time understanding how any sane person today facing the same request could see it any other way. If I thought God was asking me to kill my child, I'd either believe I am crazy or that this is not a God I want to follow.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 10:19:31 PM
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LivingParadox
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
I think this example speaks of Abraham's great faith (which was counted as rigtheousness before the Lamb had come)
What would you have done? When you have something that is of great value to you are you willing to lay it on the alter for God? I think that was the real test -- is there anything in your life that you wouldn't give up for God. I think this is often where many stumble.
I think this is a good question - "what would you have done?".
If I felt that God was asking me to kill my daughter as a sacrifice to Him or as a test of faith, I'd check myself into a mental institution. I'm serious. And, I have a very difficult time understanding how any sane person today facing the same request could see it any other way. If I thought God was asking me to kill my child, I'd either believe I am crazy or that this is not a God I want to follow.
I'm glad you would check yourself into mental institution...but I really wasn't suggesting your child ...but that IS what God DID ask of Abraham AND that IS what God did to free us of sin.
< Message edited by LivingParadox -- 11/15/2009 10:25:51 PM >
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You're dangerous 'cause you're honest ~U2
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 10:21:58 PM
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dbark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
I think this example speaks of Abraham's great faith (which was counted as rigtheousness before the Lamb had come)
What would you have done? When you have something that is of great value to you are you willing to lay it on the alter for God? I think that was the real test -- is there anything in your life that you wouldn't give up for God. I think this is often where many stumble.
I think this is a good question - "what would you have done?".
If I felt that God was asking me to kill my daughter as a sacrifice to Him or as a test of faith, I'd check myself into a mental institution. I'm serious. And, I have a very difficult time understanding how any sane person today facing the same request could see it any other way. If I thought God was asking me to kill my child, I'd either believe I am crazy or that this is not a God I want to follow.
I'm glad you would check yourself into mental institution...but I really wasn't suggesting your child ...but that IS what God DID ask of Abraham AND that IS what God did to free us of sin.
I know ... that's what disturbs me. Abraham is held up as an example of great faith for his willingness to do what anyone of us now would say only a mentally disturbed person would do. What does this mean for us? For our concept of God? For our faith?
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 10:38:24 PM
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michele_erin
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I understand the question, but I don't know if it's been answered sufficiently. How DO you explain to an atheist how a loving God could ask something like that. It is a question I've thought myself, but don't know the answer. Maybe I'll search it out myself and see if the Holy Spirit reveals something that makes sense. Great question though.
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 10:53:03 PM
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LivingParadox
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It simply wouldn't have happened that way as God had a convenant with Abraham that his descendants would come through Issac. God doesn't break his convenants.
Just realized I answered the wrong question. Not only did Abraham know God.... God Knew Abraham. Much like God knows when we are His...after all he is God, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
< Message edited by LivingParadox -- 11/15/2009 11:09:08 PM >
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You're dangerous 'cause you're honest ~U2
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 11:01:44 PM
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dbark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
It simply wouldn't have happened that way as God had a convenant with Abraham that his descendants would come through Issac. God doesn't break his convenants.
So, are you suggesting that Abraham knew God would not make him sacrifice Isaac?
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 11:09:15 PM
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LivingParadox
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Not only did Abraham know God.... God Knew Abraham. Much like God knows when we are His...after all he is God, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
I'm under the impression that Abraham would have followed through... honestly I don't know, but God does. It foreshadowed the sacrifice of His son, Jesus and a powerful example of the unimaginable -- but yet that's exactly the "crazy" thing God did.
Now the next question do you want God to spare His Son and leave us in a fallen state or do you want him to do the "crazy" thing? Kind of upside down theology.
_____________________________
You're dangerous 'cause you're honest ~U2
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 11:36:05 PM
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my quivers full
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A few things need to be pointed out. First God did not tell Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac to his glory. Child sacrifice does not glorify God. Here's the passage in question: Gen 22:1,2
Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.
Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."
As was already pointed out God promised that He would establish His covenant through Isaac. Gen 17:19
Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
I have heard it spoken that children were considered a great blessing in those days. The more you had the more blessed you were. Not the opinion of today of course. Abraham believed Gods promise to him and it was this faith which was accounted to him as righteousness. The scriptures says in Gen 22 that God was testing Abraham. Was the test about which Abraham valued more, his son or obedience to God?
Hebrews 11:17-19 tells us a bit more about that event
17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
The first commandment in the 10 Commandments is that we shall have no other gods before God. Are we willing to put the Almighty first or are there things which we will put before Him?
In light of the passages of scripture, what could you say to this atheist?
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No trees were hurt in the making of this post, but a few electrons were terribly inconvienenced :)
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RE: How could God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac? - 11/15/2009 11:36:08 PM
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dbark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
Not only did Abraham know God.... God Knew Abraham. Much like God knows when we are His...after all he is God, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
I'm under the impression that Abraham would have followed through... honestly I don't know, but God does. It foreshadowed the sacrifice of His son, Jesus and a powerful example of the unimaginable -- but yet that's exactly the "crazy" thing God did.
Now the next question do you want God to spare His Son and leave us in a fallen state or do you want him to do the "crazy" thing? Kind of upside down theology.
Well ... I don't know. I recognize the parallel intended between the sacrifice of Abraham's only son and that of God's only son, and don't get me wrong, I am infinitely grateful for God's gift of grace to us through Jesus, but Abraham's story still troubles me. Firstly that Abraham would unquestioningly follow through on the killing of his son, and secondly that God would ask that of Abraham. It seems like a excruciatingly cruel test.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, it puzzles me that Christians (and Jews, I imagine) unblinkingly accept this story as an example of God's goodness and of Abraham's great faith, never wondering about the morality of an action that they would find horrific and repulsive if found in the world today.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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