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Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/22/2009 8:06:55 PM
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Marcus.
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By Rhonda Cook
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
The Federal Aviation Administration and the National Transportation Safety Board are investigating the circumstances that caused a Delta Air Lines flight from Rio de Janeiro to end on a taxiway instead of the prescribed runway at Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport.
The pilot and co-pilot have been "relieved of active flying pending the completion of the investigations," said Delta spokesman Anthony Black, "and we're cooperating with the investigations."
Story Continues
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/22/2009 8:09:13 PM
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Marcus.
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Airline Crew Overshoots Minn. Airport By 150 Miles
by THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
text sizeAAAOctober 22, 2009
The pilots of a Northwest Airlines jet failed to make radio contact with ground controllers for more than an hour and overflew their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles before discovering the mistake and turning around.
The plane landed safely Wednesday evening, and no one was hurt. But federal officials on Thursday began investigating whether pilot fatigue was a factor.
Keith Holloway, a spokesman for the National Transportation Safety Board, said the agency does not know if the crew fell asleep, calling that idea "speculative."
Story Continues
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/22/2009 8:23:48 PM
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litfire2000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
Airline Crew Overshoots Minn. Airport By 150 Miles
by THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
text sizeAAAOctober 22, 2009
The pilots of a Northwest Airlines jet failed to make radio contact with ground controllers for more than an hour and overflew their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles before discovering the mistake and turning around.
The plane landed safely Wednesday evening, and no one was hurt. But federal officials on Thursday began investigating whether pilot fatigue was a factor.
Keith Holloway, a spokesman for the National Transportation Safety Board, said the agency does not know if the crew fell asleep, calling that idea "speculative."
Story Continues
And where was Homeland Security? Have the lessons of 9/11 been forgotten so soon? This should never have happened and the air controllers should have alerted air defense.
_____________________________
Ps. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/22/2009 8:31:07 PM
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Marcus.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: litfire2000
And where was Homeland Security?
Harassing a handicapped Grandmother going through security by making her get up out of her wheelchair, taking it apart, and letting her put it back together. Gotta stare at the X-ray machine monitor to watch for those embarrassing articles in your carryon luggage.
quote:
ORIGINAL: litfire2000
Have the lessons of 9/11 been forgotten so soon? This should never have happened and the air controllers should have alerted air defense.
Yep they have. The only air defense we have up here are a couple of duck and geese hunters named Red and Blue. Ya, you betch ya.
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/22/2009 10:52:18 PM
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Marcus.
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Actually the taxiway was just a couple of hundred feet away and parallel to the runway. Atlanta-Hartsfield International
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/22/2009 11:54:31 PM
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wing2000
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: litfire2000
Have the lessons of 9/11 been forgotten so soon? This should never have happened and the air controllers should have alerted air defense.
....the linked article notes:
The FAA notified the military, which put Air National Guard fighter jets on alert at two locations. As many as four planes could have been scrambled, but none ever took to the air.
"After FAA re-established communications, we pulled off," said Michael Kucharek, a North American Aerospace Defense Command spokesman.
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/23/2009 2:22:11 AM
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rockominal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
Airline Crew Overshoots Minn. Airport By 150 Miles
by THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
text sizeAAAOctober 22, 2009
The pilots of a Northwest Airlines jet failed to make radio contact with ground controllers for more than an hour and overflew their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles before discovering the mistake and turning around.
I do that when I'm on flight simulator.  I just simply walk off and forget. I don't really know about direct routes or anything but I "do" my flight plans off of http://www.simroutes.com/fb2/showplans.aspx
I don't know if real world airlines go direct, but I use the regular VOR to VOR routes. I'm with Vatsim.net and these guys are virtual ATC. These guys can be kind of sticklers, or not, but I've gone through the motions from beginning to end, and I like it. ATC services pretty much means what it says. ATC provides a service to the aircraft. If you're IFR route is filed, ATC doesn't really wait in anticipation of your every move. If you just happen to enter class A or B airspace along the way, you just ask to transition and report clear when you leave. I'm not talking about the destination airport. All commercial aircraft use their four number squawk transponder code and , as far as I know, there are no exceptions. I don't know about military aircraft flying over civilian airspace, but the idea is just to communicate your intentions. Other than that, you're pretty much on your own. If you are watching TV or fall asleep at the wheel, you can easily pass it up, especially if you don't encroach on a controller's airspace and make him mad by not responding. I don't know. In the case of VOR, you dial the NAV frequency, e.g., 121.8 let's pretend, set autopilot, and you're good to go. I say that somebody forgot about the last VOR. Again, I'm not a pilot but these guys have things called SID'S and STAR'S. You need to look at them.
Don't get me wrong. I dialed in a wrong VOR that was in range once that took me pretty far out of the way. That's embarrassing. 
_____________________________
I might tell you the truth, or something pretty close to it. Jesus says, "I Am the Truth."
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/23/2009 11:46:38 AM
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Marcus.
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We do go direct when traffic and ATC allows it. We talk with ATC for any changes to route, speed, altitude, or to check on weather conditions real time along our route.
All of the modern aircraft with EFIS use GPS and FMS units. We are able to go direct on our own. But that doesn't mean older aircraft without the modern equipment are left out. They just ask ATC for a heading direct to whatever point they want.
Departures are usually a go fast and climb fast business unless you get stuck behind a slow moving aircraft. ATC will usually make the slow mover get out of the way but that only works when arrivals aren't going on as well. Then you are just stuck unless you can manage to out climb the slow mover.
Usually arriving into a major international airport during a push (rush hour) winds up being a little frustrating. To get all the aircraft arriving spaced properly, we usually are directed to reduce our airspeed. 250 kts is a common speed to hear. If that doesn't make enough of an impact, ATC turns us off course. To lengthen it more they may send us back across the arrival route and to the other side for a while. And if that doesn't work we get to hold at a navaid then.
When you fly under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) you must use your transponder system for ATC to be able to keep track of you. Aircraft operating under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) under Flight Following will be assigned a transponder code unless they don't have a transponder system. Then the controller will follow the raw radar return. Civilian aircraft only have access to the Mode 3A and C systems, and the newer Mode S system. The FAA in some manuals calls the Mode 3A system a 4096 transponder system because that is the number of code variations possible with the equipment.
Aircraft operating under IFR don't need to request permission to go through class A, B, C, D, or E airspace. Because you are in contact with ATC and operating IFR it is automatic. Ditto flight following for VFR aircraft. However VFR aircraft not using flight following must either make contact or receive permission to pass through the various types of controlled airspace.
Standard Instrument Departures (SID) and Standard Terminal Arrivals (STAR) are preferred Instrument Flight Routes into or out of high density (traffic flow) airports.
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/23/2009 12:57:28 PM
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wing2000
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Marcus --
It's my understanding the Northwest flight maintained it's cruising altitude while flying over the airport route map -- presumably with the auto pilot engaged. Reports indicate they were oblivious to radio contact and only became aware of their "situation" after a flight crew member asked what was going on....
Question: Would the plane navigational tools not alert the pilots they had reached certain points in the flight...i.e. the time to descend?
I also find it astounding they did not notice the lights from MSP below them.....
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/23/2009 2:04:21 PM
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Marcus.
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It's been very cloudy here for the last few days so they may not have had any external lights to tip them off. When I was flying 2 days ago, the cloud tops were in the low 30,000 foot range. They may have been in the clouds themselves.
The Flight Management System, which the pilots program with the route and cruise altitude, does give you alerts but they are silent visual alerts on the instruments. The aural alerts are tied in with safety warnings and altitude changes. When you reach the end of the programmed route, the FMS will continue to navigate using the last known heading. Since there are no other points to go to then the airplane will just go straight. Which is what you saw on that map.
This reminds me of the regional airline flight in Hawaii in 2008. These guys were awake but were they so fatigued from previous days schedules that they were impaired?
The Air Line Pilot's Association conducted an informal in house fatigue survey a few years ago. Pilots at airlines at all levels (regional, national, and international) reported to operating while fatigued due to increased duty time and reduced rest periods since 9/11. Despite what airline management like to say. The average duty day is 12 hours and some airlines work their crews longer than that, international flights normally do. Most crews work 3 to 5 days for 12 hours each day. In fact pilots exposed the longest to these types of extreme workloads report chronic fatigue that they are unable to cure by a few good nights rest. The accumulated sleep deficit is such that they would need a couple of months off to recover adequately according to the latest sleep and fatigue studies.
Crews are able to get away with flying while tired or fatigued because of the automation. However, if the automation weren't available, the crew would be at their mental and physical limits to fly the aircraft safely. Something to consider. Today's airplanes are pressurized. But you aren't at sea level. When you are in cruise the cabin altitude is around 8000 feet or so. If you have ever gone from sea level to 8000 feet in mountains during a trip you may remember how you felt tired and maybe even noticed your mental functions may have been impaired somewhat.
When the federal regulations were written most airlines didn't push their crews so hard because their were fewer flights and they typically took longer. However, the accident rates were far higher back then. Now with deregulation and the push for maximum efficiency, we push people harder and far closer to legal limits routinely. With such drastic changes in the industry practice, it is good that Congress feels the need to force the FAA to re-evaluate crew flight, duty, and rest regulations in light of the increased accidents, some directly caused by fatigue and the rest made far worse because of fatigue and its impact on the crew mental ability.
< Message edited by Marcus. -- 10/23/2009 2:15:27 PM >
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/23/2009 2:15:42 PM
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wing2000
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quote:
It's been very cloudy here for the last few days so they may not have had any external lights to tip them off. When I was flying 2 days ago, the cloud tops were in the low 30,000 foot range. they may have been in the clouds themselves.
The Flight Management System, which the pilots program with the route and cruise altitude, does give you alerts but they are silent visual alerts on the instruments. The aural alerts are tied in with safety warnings and altitude changes. When you reach the end of the programmed route, the FMS will continue to navigate using the last known heading. Since there are no other points to go to then the airplane will just go straight. Which is what you saw on that map.
Ah right. Living in the Southwest, I some times forget about the dense cloud cover that is so common in the upper midwest...
Imagine if this had occurred in area near hostile air space....I recall KAL 007's fate after it flew off-route over a Soviet military installation. In that case, I believe there was a problem with the auto-pilot....
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/23/2009 2:29:02 PM
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rockominal
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I would like to interject my personal experience with this when I first got online. I was nervous. Most of the guys have been doing it for awhile and I got enough info to get me going. For some reason, I have a hard time navigating on the ground. That is, taxiway to runway and especially with some place like KORD. O'hare is pretty impressive. Like I said, I'm on simulator and one of my favorite spots is San Francisco. It just looks cool from the air. Since then, I think I've become pretty familiar with their layout. Sometimes I wish I was in a real plane and flying VOR to see if I can actually recognize everything. Even though I've never been to San Francisco, it just seems like in my own mind anyway, that I would just know. One of my favorite if not most favorite procedures is the Porte 3 departure. I just think it is totally cool to do.
In my experience there is no "early warning" system for location or alert of any kind whatsoever. Nothing that I do on here has any sort of alert at all. If I set everything at cruise altitude, the plane will fly and simply keep flying. The only warning I know of is the stall warning. However, you're at cruise altitude and flying along, the concern about stall simply wouldn't come up. I don't know how to use the various Garmin navigation products out there but I'm pretty sure I could learn. I don't think these units have any kind of warning or notification type of thing going on, but I don't know. I've never seen anything of the sort. As far as descent/speed/altitude/distance thing, I don't really get into that much. I just look at the SID chart. If the minimum is say, 8,000 ft at a point, then I just try to "go there" if I'm currently at 18,000. Now I might not make it at the exact time that some of these guys calculate, but I know I'm going to reach that point by looking at DME and getting the feel, so to speak. Again, no "alerts" of any kind along the route. My practice run for example, has been from KRNO [Reno] to KSFO, San Francisco.
As far as this incident is concerned, the only thing that results from it that I can see is a schedule delay for the aircraft. Sure, you use up some fuel in the process.
< Message edited by rockominal -- 10/23/2009 2:36:19 PM >
_____________________________
I might tell you the truth, or something pretty close to it. Jesus says, "I Am the Truth."
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/23/2009 8:40:57 PM
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Ps103
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Marcus, is there a chance that this whole thing (the Northwest Airlines incident) was planned to bring attention to tired pilots and crews?
There is something a little *too* off here, if you know what I mean.
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Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/23/2009 8:56:47 PM
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Marcus.
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Rock,
You should be in the cockpit on the ground in Chicago or San Fransisco. It can truly be amazing and disorienting at times. Some ground controllers machine gun clearances to you. If you miss them then they park you for a while.
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/23/2009 9:37:17 PM
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Marcus.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Marcus, is there a chance that this whole thing (the Northwest Airlines incident) was planned to bring attention to tired pilots and crews?
There is something a little *too* off here, if you know what I mean.
I don't think so. The 2 pilots from last years' Hawaii incident lost their jobs. I would be surprised if that didn't happen here.
Usually aviation incidents happens in groups. Many unreported in the news. Personally I think we get these groupings of incidents from complacency, fatigue, and hostile work environment. It all builds up to a point and then erupts. Some of the fatigue incidents tie into management pushing crews harder either on regulations or their contracts. I have noticed that as a trend myself over the years. We seem to have management renege on some portion of our contract from time to time. Suddenly a new and novel view of a well established section of the contract pops up. People get worked up about it and have no way to relieve the stress. The hostile work environment builds up until something happens eventually.
I feel sorry for the NW pilots on this flight and the Delta pilots who landed on the taxiway instead of the runway in Atlanta. Most likely their airline careers are over. There aren't a lot of other flying jobs that can replace the pay they were earning.
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/24/2009 1:12:20 AM
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rockominal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Marcus, is there a chance that this whole thing (the Northwest Airlines incident) was planned to bring attention to tired pilots and crews?
There is something a little *too* off here, if you know what I mean.
I don't think so. The 2 pilots from last years' Hawaii incident lost their jobs. I would be surprised if that didn't happen here.
I'd like to find out more about the Hawaii episode. Was that some sort of navigation problem or did they just forget and go too far out of the way as well ?
_____________________________
I might tell you the truth, or something pretty close to it. Jesus says, "I Am the Truth."
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/24/2009 2:33:17 AM
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Marcus.
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Check out post 12. I have a link to the latest article on the Hawaiian flight. Both pilots feel asleep on that one.
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/24/2009 2:46:59 AM
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rockominal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
Rock,
You should be in the cockpit on the ground in Chicago or San Fransisco. It can truly be amazing and disorienting at times. Some ground controllers machine gun clearances to you. If you miss them then they park you for a while.
Since I've been online I haven't gone the Chicago route because I was afraid to. I still haven't done anything at O'hare because of what you just said. That includes getting clearance to taxi to gate. One guy on the forum said "most of the guys in Cleveland are pretty nice, excluding the egos of the Chicago controllers" , etc..
When I first started at Indy, I listen to somebody with his virtual Southwest callsign get clearance. Like you said, it blasted right past me. Did he say "mike-2 or mike-3, november, etc.. OR just mike, november? Anyways he was cleared to taxi and already on the way. At where ever it was, maybe he was at the intersection, but he called for progressive taxi. Maybe not sure left or right turn or something. He was on hold, and for awhile. When Indy's controller came back on later, it was like, "Southwest437, or something, :: controller frustrated:: you wanna make a right turn at mike-3 (I think). "Continue taxi on MIKE." .. or something to that affect.
That was when I first got on this thing and mainly hung around with a couple of guys on Oakland who would talk to me in their spare time. They were really encouraging and put me at ease. But when I first started there at KIND after hearing that, I just left cause I didn't want to cause any trouble. That was no fun because it's supposed to be my home base so to speak.
But seriously, I was nervous and just didn't get into it. I think that is why I never have wanted to deal with O'hare.
_____________________________
I might tell you the truth, or something pretty close to it. Jesus says, "I Am the Truth."
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/24/2009 11:19:48 AM
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Marcus.
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Pilot who overshot airport denies crew was napping
By STEVE KARNOWSKI and BRAD CAIN, AP
posted: 58 MINUTES
MINNEAPOLIS -The first officer of the Northwest Airlines jet that missed its destination by 150 miles says there was no fight in the cockpit, neither he nor the captain had fallen asleep and the passengers were never in any danger.
But in an interview with The Associated Press two days after he and a colleague blew past their destination as air traffic controllers tried frantically to reach them, pilot Richard Cole would not say just what it was that led to them to forget to land Flight 188.
"It was not a serious event, from a safety issue," Cole said in front of his Salem, Ore., home. "I would tell you more, but I've already told you way too much."
Story Continues
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/24/2009 3:20:30 PM
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Marcus.
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No one was snoozing in cockpit, NWA pilot says
Internal airline documents describe a schedule that left the two Flight 188 pilots with a 19-hour layover before their trip to MSP.
By TONY KENNEDY and SUZANNE ZIEGLER, Star Tribune staff writers
Last update: October 24, 2009 - 10:18 AM
To most appearances, they seemed to be asleep.
But judging from their schedule, they should have been wide awake.
The two pilots at the helm of the Northwest Airlines flight that baffled air controllers -- first by going without radio contact for more than an hour and then by overshooting the Minneapolis airport by 150 miles -- were beginning what was to be a five-day flying stint. They started Tuesday with a flight from the Twin Cities to San Diego that was scheduled to land about 8 p.m., then had a 19-hour layover before their return flight Wednesday to the Twin Cities, airline records show.
Story Continues
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/24/2009 3:23:33 PM
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Marcus.
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A comment from one reader of this article I thought was just too good to let go.
kirby96
I believe "the first explanation given in a press release was that these guys were 'in a heated debate'" was sourced from the pilots to explain their missing MSP. I don't think the airline has expressed a theory on this, even the "asleep at the wheel" theory seems to be coming from outside the airline. Anyway, what's the big deal? I frequently set my cruise control and take a refreshing nap while travelling the freeway about greater Minnesota - but don't worry - I always leave my left turn signal blinking to alert other dirvers that I'm napping!
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Delta flight lands on taxiway instead of runway - 10/24/2009 3:51:12 PM
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Marcus.
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I hate to say this but a continuous turn signal usually goes hand in hand with a head full of grey hair.
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A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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