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Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 11:57:34 AM
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Marcus.
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Rally scheduled to force attorney general to address Constitution
Posted: November 03, 2009
9:22 pm Eastern
By Bob Unruh
© 2009 WorldNetDaily
A rally is being planned in Washington to raise the alarm over the nation's new "hate crimes" law and to force Attorney General Eric Holder to confront the unconstitutionality of the measure's "thought" penalties, according to a Christian leader working on the event.
Gary Cass of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission told WND there are a series of approaches being considered to challenge the restrictions on expression of religion and speech contained in the law signed last week by President Obama.
At the rally, set for 1:30 p.m. on Nov. 16, ministers will preach from the Bible on the prohibition against homosexuality, then will present a letter to Holder demanding that the religious liberty of all Americans be respected.
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A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 12:04:05 PM
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stampinlady
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http://www.kansascity.com/276/story/1545357.html
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 12:12:57 PM
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Marcus.
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I just realized I need a disclaimer here. I don't intend this thread to be about homosexuality but about a possible threat to First Amendment rights. I noticed some links to groups marching on the DoJ in DC.
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A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 12:27:55 PM
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lemon_sorbet
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I think some people are misunderstanding what this law is about. Religious freedoms are upheld. No pastor is going to get arrested because he preaches about the "abomination of homosexuality." If that pastor beats up a homosexual person, however, then he/she could be prosecuted.
To use a real life example, the Ku Klux Klan has been very vocal on viewpoints that are extremely unpopular with the general public. Yet, constitutionally they are protected to voice those opinions. I disagree with the Klan's viewpoints, but I respect their right to express them.
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Q. Why are we violent but not illiterate? A. Because we are taught to read." -David Allan
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 12:28:20 PM
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stampinlady
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I just posted my link as more of comment than to argue. I'm not familier with the new law and probably should go and read it. I don't remembe rthe original one affecting clergy or religious leaders, but I could be wrong.
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Deb
"In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks."
Calvin and Hobbes
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 12:38:50 PM
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Marcus.
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I posted this because it summarizes many of the attempts and successes in other countries to silence religious people speaking out. Whether or not that happens here, who knows. I do see lawsuits by homosexual extremists to try to silence individuals, ministers, churches, and Bible publishing companies. If a case was successful through some unforeseen argument..... that would be a major wakeup call. Would it force a Constitutional crisis or would it make null and void any expansion as has happened in Europe? We will just have to wait and see. Not for any lawsuits which I would expect shortly.
Edited for grammar.
< Message edited by Marcus. -- 11/7/2009 1:01:16 PM >
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 2:15:01 PM
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lemon_sorbet
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How about this example? A pastor preaches a sermon about women's roles, that they should stay at home and take care of the home and children. A feminist cannot prevent the pastor from delivering this sermon, and places of employment cannot deny a women from being employed there. These Equality/Hates Crimes laws protect both groups. On a side note, it is legal to fire someone because they are gay, lesbian, or bisexual in 29 US states. Equality/Hate Crime legislation isn't about limiting freedoms, it's about expanding them.
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Q. Why are we violent but not illiterate? A. Because we are taught to read." -David Allan
I'm an ex-christian! :D
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 2:34:30 PM
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Marcus.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lemon_sorbet
How about this example? A pastor preaches a sermon about women's roles, that they should stay at home and take care of the home and children. A feminist cannot prevent the pastor from delivering this sermon, and places of employment cannot deny a women from being employed there. These Equality/Hates Crimes laws protect both groups. On a side note, it is legal to fire someone because they are gay, lesbian, or bisexual in 29 US states. Equality/Hate Crime legislation isn't about limiting freedoms, it's about expanding them.
Here's a few you didn't cover. But what of a man who believes that a woman should be married and stay at home? Or that he openly speaks of women being prohibited by Biblical passages from being in authority over a man at work? Or the Christian couple who refuse to serve people in relationships they consider evil, such as renting apartments or homes to? Or doing business with firms that promote homosexuality such as an activist group?
The unanswered question is whether the courts will protect people's religious belief when there is a conflict between the religious belief and other protected categories. Some jurists have sided against religious belief only to be overturned later. California is a hopeful sign that the justices will abide with the constitution proscriptions despite their own views on this. They could have caused a constitutional crisis in California if they had decided against the voter initiative on Prop 8. Which will ultimately hold sway at the federal level?
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 3:43:10 PM
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lemon_sorbet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
Here's a few you didn't cover. But what of a man who believes that a woman should be married and stay at home? Or that he openly speaks of women being prohibited by Biblical passages from being in authority over a man at work? Or the Christian couple who refuse to serve people in relationships they consider evil, such as renting apartments or homes to? Or doing business with firms that promote homosexuality such as an activist group?
The unanswered question is whether the courts will protect people's religious belief when there is a conflict between the religious belief and other protected categories. Some jurists have sided against religious belief only to be overturned later. California is a hopeful sign that the justices will abide with the constitution proscriptions despite their own views on this. They could have caused a constitutional crisis in California if they had decided against the voter initiative on Prop 8. Which will ultimately hold sway at the federal level?
A man is allowed to believe that a woman should be married and stay at home. As for expressing these views at work, it could be against the law if it is considered "severe, pervasive, and creates a hostile work environment." As for the renting example, protected groups cannot be denied from renting a property simply because of whatever makes them a protected class. As for the last question in your first paragraph, individuals can patronize any business they want to. However, if those individuals belong to a business and they refuse to do business with a company or firm that supports homosexual organizations, I don't think that's legal (although I'm not 100% sure about this last one).
I agree that there will be issues of constitutional interpretation when the circumstances are in that gray, ambiguous area. There have already been numerous court cases involving those in other protected classes. But this is just one more group that is added to existing laws. Like women, old people, Muslims, young people, Asian-Americans, people will no longer be allowed to treat homosexual folks as second-class citizens.
_____________________________
Q. Why are we violent but not illiterate? A. Because we are taught to read." -David Allan
I'm an ex-christian! :D
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 4:45:43 PM
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Marcus.
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In this day and age, simply mentioning the verses even once, can get you fired from work. Some people take offense even when they bring the subject up and are presented with different points of view.
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A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 5:19:30 PM
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LilMaryB
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lemon_sorbet
I think some people are misunderstanding what this law is about. Religious freedoms are upheld. No pastor is going to get arrested because he preaches about the "abomination of homosexuality." If that pastor beats up a homosexual person, however, then he/she could be prosecuted.
To use a real life example, the Ku Klux Klan has been very vocal on viewpoints that are extremely unpopular with the general public. Yet, constitutionally they are protected to voice those opinions. I disagree with the Klan's viewpoints, but I respect their right to express them.
Exactly. I can't for the life of me understand why people, especially those who say they are Christians are up in arms over this. This in no way limits their rights or speech, but yet, there's a big fuss.
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 5:27:26 PM
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gcsmithjr
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quote:
there are a series of approaches being considered to challenge the restrictions on expression of religion and speech contained in the law signed last week by President Obama.
I've repeatedly posted about this and am consistently surprised at the amount of misinformation about this legislation that seems to perpetuate these boards. Here is the text of the actual legislation:
Whoever, whether or not acting under color of law, in any circumstance described in subparagraph (B) or paragraph (3), willfully causes bodily injury to any person or, through the use of fire, a firearm, a dangerous weapon, or an explosive or incendiary device, attempts to cause bodily injury to any person, because of the actual or perceived religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity or disability of any person--
``(i) shall be imprisoned not more than 10 years, fined in accordance with this title, or both;
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in this legislation that deals with speech. It clearly identifies that the legislation refers to directly causing bodily injury and goes on to specifically protect speech:
Nothing in this division shall be construed to prohibit any constitutionally protected speech, expressive conduct or activities (regardless of whether compelled by, or central to, a system of religious belief), including the exercise of religion protected by the First Amendment and peaceful picketing or demonstration. The Constitution does not protect speech, conduct or activities consisting of planning for, conspiring to commit, or committing an act of violence.
Here's a link to the actual legislation - LINK - it might be a good idea to read the text of the legislation to see if you truly believe that it will restrict our expressions of religion and speech (since it clearly excludes speech and religious activities).
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 6:18:12 PM
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lemon_sorbet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
In this day and age, simply mentioning the verses even once, can get you fired from work. Some people take offense even when they bring the subject up and are presented with different points of view.
I don't think that's true. Sure, there are cases like Don Imus saying racist remarks as a commentator at that women's basketball game earlier in the year which resulted in his immediate termination. However, if that remark was made in an office environment it probably would not cause that person to be fired on the spot. I imagine HR would be involved and possibly sensitivity training, but probably not out-and-out firing if it is a first-time offense.
_____________________________
Q. Why are we violent but not illiterate? A. Because we are taught to read." -David Allan
I'm an ex-christian! :D
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 6:50:31 PM
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parkerbrother
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
In this day and age, simply mentioning the verses even once, can get you fired from work.
No it can't.
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 8:59:17 PM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
openly speaks of women being prohibited by Biblical passages from being in authority over a man at work?
I'd hafta see the scripture on that.
quote:
simply because of whatever makes them a protected class.
I thought...christians..were a protected class?
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 9:08:50 PM
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cberman
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There's no prohibition against what the Christian minister can and cannot say in the inclusion of sexuality in hate crimes legislation. Hate crimes involve attacks, not speech.
A minister that encourages his congregation to assault homosexuals will be in trouble. A minister that names homosexuality as a sin will be protected.
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 9:18:35 PM
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Marcus.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
openly speaks of women being prohibited by Biblical passages from being in authority over a man at work?
I'd hafta see the scripture on that.
quote:
1 Timothy 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
_____________________________
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. -- Sigmund Freud
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 9:21:46 PM
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rawr.ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lemon_sorbet
No pastor is going to get arrested because he preaches about the "abomination of homosexuality."
. . . yet.
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 9:40:27 PM
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cberman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: lemon_sorbet
No pastor is going to get arrested because he preaches about the "abomination of homosexuality."
. . . yet.
There's no provision anywhere in legislation that would allow for such an arrest.
There's no indication that legislation is moving toward the sort of atmosphere necessary for such an arrest.
No pastor will ever be arrested in America for expressing the opinion that homosexuality is immoral.
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 9:40:32 PM
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lemon_sorbet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: lemon_sorbet
No pastor is going to get arrested because he preaches about the "abomination of homosexuality."
. . . yet.
If your post is going to be all dramatic and foreshadowy, you could at least grace us with a good "du du DUHHHHHH!" sound effect 
_____________________________
Q. Why are we violent but not illiterate? A. Because we are taught to read." -David Allan
I'm an ex-christian! :D
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 9:47:29 PM
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cberman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
openly speaks of women being prohibited by Biblical passages from being in authority over a man at work?
I'd hafta see the scripture on that.
The Scripture is there (as quoted above), but the interpretation is rather 'up-for-grabs'. I, for one, do not think Paul is speaking about all women at all time. He is addressing a particular issue in that church.
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 11:21:36 PM
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rawr.ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cberman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
quote:
ORIGINAL: lemon_sorbet
No pastor is going to get arrested because he preaches about the "abomination of homosexuality."
. . . yet.
There's no provision anywhere in legislation that would allow for such an arrest.
There's no indication that legislation is moving toward the sort of atmosphere necessary for such an arrest.
No pastor will ever be arrested in America for expressing the opinion that homosexuality is immoral.
Mmkay.
*pats you on the head*
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 11:35:20 PM
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cberman
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Would you care to share the basis for your position, rather than diminishing to people who disagree with you?
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 11:47:41 PM
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rawr.ben
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Nah. I'm good.
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RE: Christians to take 'hate crimes' challenge to Holder - 11/7/2009 11:56:44 PM
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cberman
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Then please be respectful.
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